What is the biggest debacle of RPG history?

[shadzar]

did you mean prostatent or protestant?

[Neon Sequitur]

Does anyone remember the demise of GDW?

The lawsuits surrounding the release of Dangerous Journeys?

The howls of protest from the Traveller community when The New Era was released?

Either of those two alone would be a noteworthy debacle. But coming out in the same year as back-to-back releases, those two games pretty much started the downward spiral that ended with GDW closing up shop four years later.

[Daztur]

One thing about what made 4e such a disaster that doesn't get mentioned much is that then they started bringing outside people in to playtest and get feedback they used RPGA members. I don't think much RPGA feedback got included in the text but I think that trying to make a game that would cater to RPGA playstyle or organized play in general is a reason behind a few of the annoying bits of 4e design.

[shadzar]

yes, RPGA is a bad model to try to design a game for. while wargames had tournaments, trying to do the same with D&D was always a failure. Frank Mentzer had an impossible job, because the majority of people do NOT play at events and cons in tournament mode, nor do people award a MVP at the end of a game session.

this just isnt what the game is made for, and designing it for that is only able to lead to failure.

RPGA was always a failure. all D&D had to have for cons was participation rewards. a special con mini like white dwarf has its special white dwarf mini for its GamesDay, Reaper has their signature "maiden" Sofie. D&D could have had... a DM mini. hell it could have looked like Dungeon Master from the cartoon! participate in a big event in the RPGA and get the mini from this year, or get a copy of the event adventure, like was done with 3.5 for those D&D Game Day's where the DM got to keep it in many places, and the DDM minis were divided amongst the players. they used to have copies of special adventures for the cons, that is all that is needed. some sort of participation "reward". you came, you killed the con, you took its stuff (swag).

ONE-D&D-TO-RULE-THEM-ALL doesn't work at all. they knew that then, they should know it still holds true now.

[Voss]

Does anyone remember the demise of GDW?

The lawsuits surrounding the release of Dangerous Journeys?

The howls of protest from the Traveller community when The New Era was released?

Either of those two alone would be a noteworthy debacle. But coming out in the same year as back-to-back releases, those two games pretty much started the downward spiral that ended with GDW closing up shop four years later.

Most probably don't. They'll recognize Traveller, and maybe Twilight 2000, but... yeah. GDW really flamed out in the 80s, long before DJ.

Dangerous Journeys itself was a fucking joke. I mostly remember people not buying it, on the principle that it was a hellishly blatant D&D rip-off and the writers would be sued into oblivion. Yeah, no one really gave a shit about the author at that point, even if they took the time to look at his name.

[Drachasor]

I'd have to favor 4E as well with how it has completely screwed up the D&D base.

Though, I don't know. Perhaps something like it was inevitable. The D&D base had already been deeply divided into different camps that no one game could actually satisfy. Maybe it was only a question of time before they started buying different games. Though 4E's huge flaws still made it into a horrible transition.

Hmm, can't say Pathfinder actually helped the situation either, as it is also a troubled game.

[Leress]

Hmm, can't say Pathfinder actually helped the situation either, as it is also a troubled game.

The only reason Pathfinder even exist is because WOTC screwed over Paizo.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, can't say Pathfinder actually helped the situation either, as it is also a troubled game.

The only reason Pathfinder even exist is because WOTC screwed over Paizo.

True, but that doesn't mean what they came up with isn't also a mess. Though it is less of a mess than 4E by a wide margin.

I think we can consider the splintering of D&D with the planning and arrival of 4E one large debacle. Pathfinder is part of it even if it isn't a cause.

[Koumei]

People had certainly been wanting different games, but the problem is that largely the groups wanted "gritty Frodo and dwarf-on-elf action, where you have no magic and nobody does anything special and you can die all the time" and "crazy fantasy explosion with minotaur warlords doing leaps that are as good as flying, and storms of fireballs".

That is to say, Low Fantasy and High Fantasy, but both internally balanced.

It was inevitable that we'd end up with two separate lines of D&D, but the split we got wasn't actually that. It was "grindfest with stupid elements added presumably just to give a really easy 'this is an MMO' target", and "No monks, no fighters, wizard only, Final Destination" like never seen since the days of oWoD.

[DSMatticus]

In the context of the D&D line shitting all over itself for what is shaping up to be two consecutive editions, Pathfinder is a good thing. Not the best possible thing. Not even a step in the direction of any noticeably better thing. But they resisted the siren's call of mediocrity, and now if by chance a handful of people who aren't total dumbasses come along and want to do a 3.5 knock-off that isn't a water-treading rehash they (if they play their advertising cards right) will be met with enthusiasm instead of blank, confused stares. They kept 3.5 moving off the shelves under a different name while WotC derped - that'll be nice, if someone capitalizes on it in time.

[infected slut princess]

FUCKING DRAGONBORN FUCK YUO

[TheFlatline]

As bad as 4th edition was, I think the moment that D&D jumped the shark for me was when they named Eberron the "default D&D setting".

After all that's where Dragonborn were from originally if memory serves. And I know people defend it, but it turned out to be a taste of things to come.

[Leress]

As bad as 4th edition was, I think the moment that D&D jumped the shark for me was when they named Eberron the "default D&D setting".

I don't think it was every called the default setting.

After all that's where Dragonborn were from originally if memory serves. And I know people defend it, but it turned out to be a taste of things to come.

That would be Races of the Dragon, not Eberron. 4th Ed made them a "core" race.

[shadzar]

with the edition split thing, this is how it always was since the 80s. the problem was that there was more than two camps. those who liked BD&D and those who liked AD&D, AND those who wanted still something else. the optin was to make a 3rd D&D game line to have 3 on the market or shit all over D&D and make ONLY the 3rd and new one. and they shit all over the market with jsut the 3rd new one, while they could have kept all alive, or just called their new thing the d20 System Game.

without the iconic D&D logo would the d20 system game work? well pathfinder proved 8 years later that it didn't need the D&D logo to be popular.this is what people said back in 2000 also, but WotC didn't listen. it is also what finally proved to WotC that putting the D&D logo on jsut anything wont make it spin straw into gold. 4th was shit and trash. not jsut having eBerron elements built into it because WotC fully owned eBerron thanks to the contest rules of which it was born, but because it is just as shitty as Birthright, the setting it closely emulates with its marks similar to the bloodlines.

dragon/humanoids were first a PC race in Council of Wyrms (1994). another bad idea from Bill Slavicsek who lead the design of 4th edition.

like him ALL those who came after LW into D&D have no idea what D&D is, and thus the reason they make sure poor shit for it. old-hats that are still in the game like Greenwood, just flipflop with his always wanting to rejoin Abier and Toril for 4th he finally got to, but NOW for DDN he wants to fix the damage.....well he sold FR long ago and has no control over it now just has to suck corporate cock in order to keep working with the game he created as a setting for D&D.

[TheFlatline]

As bad as 4th edition was, I think the moment that D&D jumped the shark for me was when they named Eberron the "default D&D setting".

I don't think it was every called the default setting.

After all that's where Dragonborn were from originally if memory serves. And I know people defend it, but it turned out to be a taste of things to come.

That would be Races of the Dragon, not Eberron. 4th Ed made them a "core" race.

I distinctly remember at some point after that stupid "brew our next setting!" contest that they announced Eberron would be the default setting for all new products released.

I guess they went back on that.

Oh, and you're right, I was confusing Dragonborn with Warforged.

[K]

To be fair, Warforged are also stupid.

[Maxus]

I hated the Eberron races, mostly.. They were pretty much balanced against their flavor text. They'd sound sorta awesome and then..

Okay, medieval robot men. Kay. Cool. I can deal.

With all those asshole penalties and restrictions and the composite armor.

Descendants of werewolves? Awesome!

...who show their lycanthrope-ness by growing weakass claws/teeth. Once a day. For a bit.

The Kalashtar get all talked up as great psionic warriors and all that.

And instead of a PrC or feats or something to give them their special "Dancing with the Shadows" thing, they get a paragraph advocating Kalashtar warriors take Dodge and Mobility to reflect their dancey special combat style.

Changelings are my out-and-out favorite. Disguise Self at-will? And it's a physical change? That's something that would be a central part of how a character thinks about the world. It's awesome.

[MGuy]

I don't understand why Eberron gets so much hate. It's my preferred DnD setting honestly. It's contemporary, neat core races that cover those niches people like (robots, furries, shapechangers oh my), and no part of the setting makes me want to vomit. The mechanics behind it are still stuck on stupid but it's a 3rd edition setting so it is blameless.

[Voss]

Largely because it is kitchen sink schlock with a lot of setting elements and even misplaced genre elements that a lot of people just don't want, but they're embedded so deeply into the setting that tearing them out is difficult.


Oddly enough D&D players don't often want to recreate Mystery on the Orient Express with magic robots, but Eberron takes a lot of time and effort to make that possible.

As for no part of the setting making you want to vomit, you have a stronger stomach than I do. Vol, the evil warforged god, the destroyed nation, the far realm stuff and the silver flame all have really strong elements that lean toward just this side of squick, with some wandering well over the line.

[Prak]

I'm with MGuy. It's not great (the races do kind of suck mechanically), but it doesn't feel old as balls like Fearun, and it's not piecemeal like Greyhawk. And it's not some idiot trying to ape Middle Earth or Fearun. Does it need some improvement? Sure, but like anyone's surprised by that for a D&D product.

[vagrant]

Yeah, I've rarely run games that weren't set in Eberron. FR is generic fantasy BS, and Greyhawk is just bare-bones for a setting. It's biggest failing is the 3.5 mechanics, but as we all know, 3.5 mechanics taken literally really allow for only a few types of settings.

[codeGlaze]

I really dig Eberron in general, too.
Primarily because it's sort of fresh, compared to the other campaign worlds. Baker had said he had tried to make something that allowed people to take a piece of the world and run with it (or something along those lines) in an interview. He had also mentioned that he really struggled with implementing his races (warforged) because of how low powered 3e tended to balance things.

Admittedly I'm a sucker for steam-punk, so parts of this allowed me to easily scratch an itch with some house-ruling.

I liked the premise of the races (most of them are house-ruled to be better) and the Artificer. I think the Artificer is more along the lines of how I see wizards, in general. Using items and doodads as their arcane foci.

... back on topic.

I vote 4e.

[Meikle641]

As for no part of the setting making you want to vomit, you have a stronger stomach than I do. Vol, the evil warforged god, the destroyed nation, the far realm stuff and the silver flame all have really strong elements that lean toward just this side of squick, with some wandering well over the line.

Care to elaborate on these?

[shadzar]

trying to turn ALL of D&D into steam-punk was not only wrong, but about 5 years too late for the major steam-punk craze. not counting the Vernian Era of course....

there should be no default setting designed for D&D and any attempt is a failure, more than just a debacle, as the consumer will use D&D for what they want, and if too pigeonholed into one setting, like 4th, they just won't play it at all.

[OgreBattle]

is there any D&D world where bug-people are a PC race