Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:37 am
I still can't tell who wrote what, and IIRC that was your intention.
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For what it's worth, I think you're insane and split the credit for Tomes 50/50. My impression is that you produced much more coherent material when working within the framework of fixing 3.X, and only go completely off the rails when you start trying to redefine fundamental gameplay concepts.K wrote:Shit, when did I become a respected poster?Schwarzkopf wrote:.... We have even respected posters like K....\
I'm pretty sure that everyone thinks that I'm insane and 100% of all credit for the Tomes is attributed to Frank.
And most of the abilities you state are in fact superhuman feats, which just goes back to the initial point that you need to be supernatural to be awesome. Once you get to the point of fighters making 30 ft leaps and forcing things to make will saves or temporarily mind controlling them, you've gone beyond Conan.nockermensch wrote: This is a non-sequitur. Fighters don't need to be a sad and pathetic class and everybody else don't need to be depowered for melee combat to shine. You can have a paradigm where if a "fighter" takes their 8th level, they get to pick stuff like:
I don't respect any of you. You're all clearly poorly programmed, lifeless automatons stuck in an infinite loop. It's the only explanation for why you're all posting in another fighter thread.Chamomile wrote:For what it's worth, I think you're insane and split the credit for Tomes 50/50. My impression is that you produced much more coherent material when working within the framework of fixing 3.X, and only go completely off the rails when you start trying to redefine fundamental gameplay concepts.K wrote:Shit, when did I become a respected poster?Schwarzkopf wrote:.... We have even respected posters like K....\
I'm pretty sure that everyone thinks that I'm insane and 100% of all credit for the Tomes is attributed to Frank.
This.Cyberzombie wrote:And most of the abilities you state are in fact superhuman feats, which just goes back to the initial point that you need to be supernatural to be awesome. Once you get to the point of fighters making 30 ft leaps and forcing things to make will saves or temporarily mind controlling them, you've gone beyond Conan.nockermensch wrote: This is a non-sequitur. Fighters don't need to be a sad and pathetic class and everybody else don't need to be depowered for melee combat to shine. You can have a paradigm where if a "fighter" takes their 8th level, they get to pick stuff like:
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but you can't pretend that you're still talking about a mundane fighter anymore.
Every time I've ever seen any vague hints of attributions, it seems K was the one who wrote, or at least made an admirable attempt to write actual practical crunch and Frank wanked on the fluff.Koumei wrote:I still can't tell who wrote what
Yep. Invisibility is a +20 to your hide check, and a non-magical +30 to your hide check is very plausibly not as good. This is because in a table top role playing game, it is often as important to be able to tell the other players how you're going to do something as it is to have a large numeric bonus to doing it. At the very basic level, having a plausible sounding plan of action is worth a point or two of bonuses, while having an implausible sounding plan is worth a point or two of penalties. But at the far end, if you can't convince the MC that your ability is relevant in the first place, you don't even get to roll the dice.Fuchs wrote:Even though you only need to roll 20 to spot an invisible creature.Lago PARANOIA wrote:It's not just evasion, either. Recall Andy Collin's weird tirades about small rogues sneak attacking. Hell, I remember a debate on this very board in which RC2 said that he wouldn't allow a rogue with +30 to sneak to try to slip past a guard in a featureless, narrow hallway but would allow a wizard with invisibility to try.
I can't find the original quote in this thread.K wrote:Shit, when did I become a respected poster?Schwarzkopf wrote:.... We have even respected posters like K....\
I'm pretty sure that everyone thinks that I'm insane and 100% of all credit for the Tomes is attributed to Frank.
Problems 2, 3, 4, and with some interpretation 5 go away once you obsolete non-magical influence and force everyone to use some kind of magic -- doesn't have to be crude like dominate either, you could have something as low key as Ace Attorney where your magical candy and interdimensional chess matches forces people to say things that they don't want to.Lago PARANOIA wrote:Well.zugschef wrote:After all, team monster can cast charm/dominate person on them. What's the difference?
[*] Having NPCs diplomatize PCs opens up a brand new frontier in laying down shiny railroad tracks. We've had a couple of DMs on these boards who openly salivate at the thought of being able to diplomatize PCs *coughRandomCasualty2Swordslinger* and I see nothing good coming from this.
[*] Even if every DM was reasonable about it, if your diplomacy system generates a plausible but unusual result like pissing on yourself in public pranknet-style or having your militant lesbian/straightjacket/bear character seduced by someone of their non-preferred gender you'll have some players throw a bitch fit anyway. It doesn't matter if the result is realistic or plausible or even likely; once your character trades their loyal warhouse mount they've had for several years for a sack of magic beans, people will demonize the system as 'bullshit randomness telling people how to roleplay their character'.
The reason why people are okay with charm/dominate but not mundane diplomacy is threefold.
[*] The first is, well, mundane diplomacy is mundane. People have odd conceptions about dualism or how they'd defy the implications of the Milgram experiment and they just won't accept mundane diplomacy making them do what they see as 'extreme' things.
[*] Secondly, charm/dominate have a build-in escape hatch as far as characterization is confirmed. The way they're fluffed is that whatever results were generated by these game effects they're not really 'you' and don't reflect anything about your character. No one really thinks that Mindbender King Howard compelling your character to lynch a retarded teenage boy in public with his evil eye means that you're a bad person.
However, if Smooth-Talking Bastard Hannibal Minderbinder convinces your character to lynch a retarded teenage boy in public with his diplomacy, it casts your character in an entirely new light. Your character development from now on is 'willingly murders children if whipped up enough'.
[*] Charm/dominate are exceptional methods of character control. Like once-a-session, if that, methods of an NPC dictating player behavior. If you make it more common than that, trust me, people will start to complain.
No, and that's the problem. There is no "one size fits all" supernatural path that will suit even a plurality of all "nonmagical warrior" concepts that didn't come with one prepackaged to begin with. Most warrior players will, in my experience, readily accept getting magicked up, but they all have spesific, different requirements for how. That is why I think the Tome Knight is the best model for warrior advancement past level 10, but it has the problem of requiring a massive classplosion in order to give players enough options.Though, is there really any particular supernatural path that Conan would naturally progress to?
This goes back to something already said in this thread: Everybody here already agrees that "being 8th level" requires being super-human. Grognards that want "real world human limits" at that point and beyond need to be laughed at and/or be told that they should stick to playing levels 1-6.Cyberzombie wrote:And most of the abilities you state are in fact superhuman feats, which just goes back to the initial point that you need to be supernatural to be awesome. Once you get to the point of fighters making 30 ft leaps and forcing things to make will saves or temporarily mind controlling them, you've gone beyond Conan.nockermensch wrote: This is a non-sequitur. Fighters don't need to be a sad and pathetic class and everybody else don't need to be depowered for melee combat to shine. You can have a paradigm where if a "fighter" takes their 8th level, they get to pick stuff like:
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but you can't pretend that you're still talking about a mundane fighter anymore.
I think grognards would be offended by the 8th level class feature "Has a slutty 6th level Wizard with Free Silent Spell attached to your crotch by his or her mouth".infected slut princess wrote:I think Conan can be a level 20 character because all the sluts are eager to blow him.
Omegonthesane wrote:I think grognards would be offended by the 8th level class feature "Has a slutty 6th level Wizard with Free Silent Spell attached to your crotch by his or her mouth".infected slut princess wrote:I think Conan can be a level 20 character because all the sluts are eager to blow him.
So, is the main draw of "Fighter" that they're the class that gets the girl in the end?infected slut princess wrote:I think Conan can be a level 20 character because all the sluts are eager to blow him.
*YOINK*infected slut princess wrote:Mack Some Bitches (Ex): At level 1, the Fighter can mack on some fine ass bitches at will. This works just like charm person but it is move-action and non-magical in nature.
You do realize his 'powersource' is Chi right?darkmaster wrote:Are we really going to do this AGAIN? Well let's get this out of the way. Yes mundane fighters suck. But this guy can jump like the goddamned hulk and his super power is "knows muay thai" in high fantasy martial arts should=super powers. End of story. There is no reason not to.
You know, that sounds an awful lot like a rogue.infected slut princess wrote:Which means: 1) He shag a lot of sluts, 2) he will always make the killing attack on the boss monsters, 3) he will solve problems with "outside-the-box" solutions.
I'm warning you man, Bruno was burnt for claiming Jesus was a magician. Don't repeat old mistakes.NineInchNall wrote:... Chi/ki is exactly as magical as the soul. Many people think the soul not magical. They make this odd distinction between magical things like "wizard throws fireball" and non-magical things like transubstantiation or "Jesus resurrects himself". There's actually a significant amount of sociological literature on explaining how and why people make that distinction, starting with Emile Durkheim (and contemporaries).
Yeah.RadiantPhoenix wrote:You know, that sounds an awful lot like a rogue.infected slut princess wrote:Which means: 1) He shag a lot of sluts, 2) he will always make the killing attack on the boss monsters, 3) he will solve problems with "outside-the-box" solutions.