Where it's never evil to kill orks and goblins

[Midnight_v]

My name is Inigo Orktoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

Yep. Pretty much, exactly.

Unless you're a fucking idiot paladin, you are NOT going to have a discussion in which a subbubus gently explains how she's reformed (but still detects as evil) and anyone trying to aid in that discussion you'd naturally assumed was ensorcelled.

Course that's in game logic.
Out of game though we know full well that shit can happen, but ultimately, I made that shit by saying demons are evil in D&D. They have that tag so you can kill them No questions asked, and it be counted as "good".

The rest of the playable races be it exterminating elves, dwarves goblins or orcs is kinda just warfare, in a mongul sense. Immoral, but just the accepted practice at that time.

[Nihnoz]

I like what warhammer did where they're a kind of fungus that spore and emerge fully formed out of the ground. Their mindset is also set permanently to "hooligan". This means there's no warren of baby goblins for paladins to angst over or orcs suddenly wanting to 'uplift' their race from being trash mobs into someone you can trade with.

I like faeries in Ars Magica 5th because they're just weird little machines that like to play out stories, they're like animatronics. It means there's no guilt in killing them because they aren't really alive, but there's also a ton of room to interact with them too.

[Cyberzombie]

Maybe you missed the link to the Succubus Paladin. You know, this one:

Sure. Here a statblock of a Lawful Good Paladin Succubus wielding holy weapons: Eludecia

Indeed I did.

Okay, saw the statblock and I'll accept that as evidence. I'm convinced. You guys are right.

[AndreiChekov]

In my games, killing gnomes is always a good act.

[hyzmarca]

My name is Inigo Orktoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

Yep. Pretty much, exactly.

Unless you're a fucking idiot paladin, you are NOT going to have a discussion in which a subbubus gently explains how she's reformed (but still detects as evil) and anyone trying to aid in that discussion you'd naturally assumed was ensorcelled.

Why wouldn't you?

1) Succubuses are universally pretty hot.
2) Most Succubuses are into kinky sex.
3) And have rather loose standards.
4) And have good taste in music.

I'm not really seeing a downside there. If she's really reformed then you get an ally and maybe have good time. If she's not really reformed then you have a very good time and maybe get an ally.

There's literally no downside to trusting her.

Even Lawful Good types can appreciate a little Black Sabbath.

[Grek]

If she's not really reformed, you get a bunch of negative levels.

[Red_Rob]

Divine Metamagic Persisted Death Ward. Never mess around with those underworld gals without protection!

[OgreBattle]

If something is inherently irredeemably evil and it's OK to kill them, is it also OK to do other evil things to them. Like you make them run forever in a hamster wheel to provide electricity for something.

[name_here]

If something is inherently irredeemably evil and it's OK to kill them, is it also OK to do other evil things to them. Like you make them run forever in a hamster wheel to provide electricity for something.

Firstly, it doesn't necessarily work that way, because things actually don't automatically become moral through being done to evil people. Secondly, if something is inherently irredeemably evil, that's probably a very bad idea because they will be constantly scheming to make you suffer.

[Sakuya Izayoi]

If something is inherently irredeemably evil and it's OK to kill them, is it also OK to do other evil things to them. Like you make them run forever in a hamster wheel to provide electricity for something.

From an eastern perspective, to do something with ill intent, such as sadistic indulgence, perpetuates the cycle of suffering. It is bad karma.

Western-wise, you can take either the naturalist approach; the best action is the one that leads to survival of you and yours. Waterboard that orc if you think you might get something useful out of him, or at least to send a message to his kin that you're playing with gloves off. Or, if you're going with Euro-Monolatrism, then go with what your god says. If Pelor says cleansing creatures with the Evil subtype gives you piety points and craven torture gives you blasphemy points, there you go.

Overall, go with what campaign tone dictates.

[Chamomile]

If something is inherently irredeemably evil and it's OK to kill them, is it also OK to do other evil things to them. Like you make them run forever in a hamster wheel to provide electricity for something.

Firstly, it doesn't necessarily work that way, because things actually don't automatically become moral through being done to evil people. Secondly, if something is inherently irredeemably evil, that's probably a very bad idea because they will be constantly scheming to make you suffer.

If it's inherently irredeemably evil, isn't it scheming to make you suffer anyway? Granted, the smart option is still to get rid of it immediately, but from the perspective of your own personal safety it seems like it wouldn't make much difference whether you force it to run in a hamster wheel or just ignore it completely.

[Omegonthesane]

If something is inherently irredeemably evil and it's OK to kill them, is it also OK to do other evil things to them. Like you make them run forever in a hamster wheel to provide electricity for something.

Firstly, it doesn't necessarily work that way, because things actually don't automatically become moral through being done to evil people. Secondly, if something is inherently irredeemably evil, that's probably a very bad idea because they will be constantly scheming to make you suffer.

If it's inherently irredeemably evil, isn't it scheming to make you suffer anyway? Granted, the smart option is still to get rid of it immediately, but from the perspective of your own personal safety it seems like it wouldn't make much difference whether you force it to run in a hamster wheel or just ignore it completely.

If you put it in a hamster wheel it has a practical as well as an evil reason to scheme to make you suffer. If you ignore it, for all you know it'll instead scheme to catch reruns of The Simpsons.

[FatR]

the newer fungal Warhammer Orcs don't get us anywhere.

Bullshit.

They still have a society, they still have humans living in that society,

As slaves only.

and they still have Orcs living in human society.

As mercenaries to the most amoral dregs of human society only.

There's still trade between Humans and Orcs. You're still killing them over what is in essence a political disagreement.

"Not wanting to be killed by Orcs" is not a political disagreement.

Fundamentally, this is a lemma with no solutions. Enemies who aren't thinking creatures with culture and opinions are basically boring (see: Zombies), while killing enemies who do have those traits is basically immoral unless they are actually doing something bad (see: Nazis).

That if you accept the utterly retarded idea that cultures and opinions can't be inherently bad, despite already providing an example that proves you wrong.

Now in the real world total extermination is not a moral solution because once the offending culture is forcibly removed you can rehabilitate and reeducate the people.

In fantasy this is not necessary so, with Warhammer orcs being the prime example. They are biologically programmed to universally enjoy fighting and killing, and their urge to fight is much stronger than their self-preservation instinct. It is almost impossible to make even a single orc capable of leaving a peaceful life without directly tampering with its genetics. AND you cannot have a bunch of orcs who live under control of human society and channel their warlike impulses into mercenary work, because they will spread their spores and contaminate biosphere with orcoid life just by being there.

Common alternative fantasy ways of having enemies that can be reasoned with on short-term basis as individuals, but cannot be reconciled with as a race include dietary requirements or reproduction cycle that makes them inherently hostile to humanoids (e.g., mind flayers, many types of vampires) or the race being magically influenced or programmatically controlled by a higher power than hates you (e.g., original orcs, various killer robots that have reasoning capacity but cannot disobey their primary directives).

In short, save for explicit belief in immortal souls that inherently have free will to choose between good and evil there is no real reason to assume that a creature in a high-magic/high-tech universe, with actors that can create or change entire races, cannot have reasoning and cognitive capacity without the capacity to coexist with "default playable" races. Therefore your only real argument is this:

Genocide really never feels good, or at least it fucking shouldn't.

In other words, having "always evil" races in your world can cause players to make decisions that are distasteful and uncomfortable, even if wholly justified in-setting. Now, I can agree with this argument. Justifying it with non-reasoning only makes it weaker.

[Korwin]

If something is inherently irredeemably evil and it's OK to kill them, is it also OK to do other evil things to them. Like you make them run forever in a hamster wheel to provide electricity for something.

What?!

[Username17]

They still have a society, they still have humans living in that society,

As slaves only.

I'm going to cut out the rest of your bullshit, because it fails right here. The Diggas are not slaves. They have a violent and hellish existence, because Warhammer, but no one owns them.

An uneasy peace between the Orks and Diggas ensued, where the former trade weapons and vehicles to the latter in exchange for anything the Meks can use to build Gorkamorka. The Diggas, impressed by the Ork's technology and lifestyle now seek to emulate them in all things, including ferocious battles for salvage rights of the debris from the Space Hulk crash.

That's a thing that happened in 40k canon. There are Humans who live next to and among Orks who adopt Orkish culture, have freedom of contract and movement, and only fight if they decide to go to the designated Orky fighting places. They made a tabletop game out of it. You can play human gangs in Gorka Morka, and you can trade with the Ork Mek Boyz and don't have to be Ork slaves. Really.

-Username17

[Dean]

I too disagree that making orks a violent plant infection who wants to kill you and doesn't mind if you murder them in return is something that doesn't help at all with making players more comfortable with waging total war on them. I would feel very comfortable wiping out 40k orc outcroppings in a way I would not if they were D&D half orcs.

[Whipstitch]

They don't always want you to kill them though and whether they are plants or not is immaterial. Ultimately, having orks in the neighborhood just means you have the same dilemma that dwarves have in D&D with regular ol' fantasy orcs and goblinoids: sometimes you can trade, but other times the warboss decides that peace is for suckers.

[Username17]

Warhammer 40k is a horrible universe full of space Nazis. Wiping out any or all of the factions is totally defensible. The Tau are space Maoists with a rigid caste system and fans of the setting have serious discussions about whether or not the Tau are too nice to fit with the rest of the universe. Not even whether the serf holding space Maoists are the least bad faction, but whether they are so much less bad that it undermines the setting. That's insane.

That being said, whether any particular group are nominally mushrooms or not is completely immaterial to any discussion of how bad they are. The Orks in particular are actually one of the most reasonable factions in the setting, and you can in fact make peace with them and conduct mutually beneficial trade and shit. But that determination is wholly independent of whether they were born out of a womb or spawned off of a rock.

It is still the creature's capacity for culture and new thought that makes them interesting and different from fighting wild animals. And almost by definition a creature capable of acquiring culture and new modes of thought is something that it is morally problematic to commit genocide upon rather than attempting to convert them to your point of view. The Orks are different and more interesting than the Necrons because you can talk to them and convince them to do new things. And yet, because you can in fact do that, committing genocide upon them is no more moral than it would be to commit genocide upon the Humans in the Imperium. Spore based reproduction strategies are simply not a meaningful part of the discussion.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

They are biologically programmed to universally enjoy fighting and killing, and their urge to fight is much stronger than their self-preservation instinct. It is almost impossible to make even a single orc capable of leaving a peaceful life without directly tampering with its genetics. AND you cannot have a bunch of orcs who live under control of human society and channel their warlike impulses into mercenary work, because they will spread their spores and contaminate biosphere with orcoid life just by being there.

Why do I read that as a pretty accurate summation of the Eldar view of humanity? I guess some things are just a matter of perspective.

To expound a little on the moral quandaries brought up by 40k Orks, one of the primary issues is that in setting for a long time their primary role has been one of comic relief. Ork army books are replete with tales of comedic Mekboy inventions, sneaky grotz getting one over on stupid warbosses and Orks winning against unbeatable odds due to a refusal to know when they are beaten. This does not mesh at all with a race of mindless killing machines that you can exterminate without remorse.

It's a similar problem to that posed by droids in Star Wars - you can't humanise something and give it endearing and admirable qualities, and then in the next breath declare it is fine to murder them or treat them as indentured slaves. Orks have gone too far down the path of lovable rogues to be treated as a mindless infection.

[Stahlseele]

"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn’t even bother to ask. We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude."

Ulthan the Perverse

[Blade]

Many moral rules are relative to a society/culture.

IRL there are a few "universal" moral rules that have been found in all cultures, and these can often be linked to some evolutionary advantage. Incest is very often badly seen, because a society where incest is the norm would quickly face problems due to inbreeding.

In a world where members of many sentient races can and will kill you more often than not and where letting them live won't give you any advantage, the societies where killing these people is morally good will survive better than the socities where killing them is morally wrong.

So it's very likely that the cultural norm in a D&D universe isn't that "genocide is evil" when it comes to unfriendly races.

[hyzmarca]

It's worth noting that Good civilizations in D&D are sort of supposed to be racist assholes. Case in point, the Mongrelmen write-up.

It's also one of those things that separates The Good Guys from mere guys who are Good.

Your motley band of heroes can very easily include a Chaotic Good Drow Ranger, an True Neutral Orc Druid, and a Lawful Evil Dwarf Assassin.

[OgreBattle]

Why do I read that as a pretty accurate summation of the Eldar view of humanity? I guess some things are just a matter of perspective.

Eldar view humanity as physically and mentally frail race, relying on genetic modification or submission to Chaos to compete against the elder races of the galaxy. Eldar don't really criticize anyone else for being warlike either, Craftworld Eldar life revolves around exorcising their natural bloodlust (The Eldar 2e Codex has a greaaaaaaat short story about an Eldar guardian who was a gardener in his civilian life but he finds killing humans to come as naturally as picking an aphid from a rose. The Farseer's part of the story has him pondering if war is the only time Eldar are really able to express who they are, because peace time is spent in rigid denial of lusts) through rigid life paths and very strictly controlled warrior paths. If someone is a big enough trouble maker in Eldar society they give them a sniper rifle, a stealth cloak, some grenades, and boot them off the craftworld until they exercise their wanderlust/killing desire. Some of them band together and become space pirates preying on humans, orks, and every other race in the galaxy solely for the purpose of fun because Eldar are able to magick stuff out of raw psychic energy anyways so it's not like they need resources. The worst become Dark Eldar.

A craftworld warrior of Striking Scorpion Style Anything Goes Martial Arts

Dark Eldar are what Eldar society was like before their Empire collapsed. They kill things for fun while recording their raids on evil space elf versions of go-pro cameras to upload to evil space elf youtube and give each other Devil May Cry combo ratings to share with their evil space elf friends. They get around the "we're elves so there aint much of us" population issue by using quick-gro clones to replenish their ranks, with the natural born being the nobility. The wealthy ones put a fragment of their souls in a soul bank so when they die, all you need is a fragment of their body (like a hand) recovered, stuck in a soul-coffin and then you torture a bunch of sentients (more torture needed for older/stronger dark eldar) until your soul re-enters your hand and then your nervous system, bones, organs and everything reform and you punch your way out of the coffin all naked and new like a Bowie shaped terminator.

There's a short story in the DE codex where a Dark Eldar kabal gets wind that an Imperial regiment is bragging that they're the "Eldar killers", so they kidnap that entire regiment, remove their arms and heads and use them in a parade back at home in their impossible-city.

Dark Eldar also have a strong cult of speed with hoverbiker gangs terrorizing the spyres of the impossible-city. But if you stop and think, their vehicles are basically the space elf versions of toyota trucks and tooktooks

lesser races wouldn't understand

If you think Eldar society sounds pretty Orky with their love of melee combat, dangerously frail fast vehicles, and piracy for the sake of piracy then you're on to something. That's 'cause Eldar are actually the precursor to orks. They were built by the Old Ones to be super psychic warriors and destroy the C'Tan and Necrons (who are vulnerable to psychic power). Orks were designed afterwards for unknown reasons (probably to destroy Chaos, 'cause Orks as a society are able to blot out the presence of Chaos in the warp through sheer orkiness)

You can see some common physiology between the two races, notably the lack of body hair, the point ears and the deep love of wearing topknots. Orks and Eldar both use psycho-reactive materials. While Eldar are limited to manipulating wraithbone, Orks are able to get a mysterious psychic bond with their weapons where they only function in ork hands. They're also the only two races that reincarnate, although for the Eldar this cycle was shattered when the Eye of Terror opened up and every god except the god of murder died.

*THere are also Amish Eldar, they herd dragons and get into petty land disputes with one another that's settled with dinosaur laser jousting.

Humanity views Eldar as dirty dirty scurvy space pirates who are active across the galaxy, most can't tell craftworlders from corsairs from Dark Eldar when they're shooting them in the face and soccer-kicking grenades in mid-air. It doesn't make much of a difference either as CWE and DE are known to cooperate for big battles against foreigners.

When an Imperial soldier dies everyone goes "oh he's gone and found peace at th' emprah's side", when an Eldar dies they go "Hey, mind if I put your soul in a tank?" and a lot of the time the soul goes "...can it be a super heavy tank witha distortion cannon?"

Humanity is really the least brutish, most peace-loving race in 40k. Unfortunately for them, they live in the 40k galaxy. I don't know if it was intentional, but a theme I like in 40k is that humanity has to discard their humanity (space marines, chaos cults) to truly stand toe to toe against the natural predators and extragalactic horrors that beset them..

*I get my fluff from the codices, I don't think the Dawn of War games properly characterized the Eldar and made them more like generic LotR elves.

[Username17]

I get my fluff from the codices, I don't think the Dawn of War games properly characterized the Eldar and made them more like generic LotR elves.

Oh for fuck's sake. Games Workshop fluff is intentionally inconsistent. It doesn't make any fucking sense, and it's not supposed to make any sense. You constructing elaborate constructs of doublethink where you connect one set of dots and ignore pieces of canon you don't like is no more valid than someone doing the opposite. Any time someone attempts to create a grand unified theory of the Warhammer universe, they are wasting their time.

IRL there are a few "universal" moral rules that have been found in all cultures, and these can often be linked to some evolutionary advantage. Incest is very often badly seen, because a society where incest is the norm would quickly face problems due to inbreeding.

You're always on shaky ground trying to claim universal moral positions across human cultures. On the incest issue, well, the Ptolemeic dynasty family tree is more of a pole:



Cleopatra married Ptolemy, and their daughter Cleopatra married their son Ptolemy, and their daughter was also named Cleopatra and married the first Cleopatra and Ptolemy's other son, who was also named Ptolemy. They had two daughters (both named Cleopatra) and two sons (both named Ptolemy), who had three unions between them. And so on. By the time we get to the classic Cleopatra who wooed Caesar and Marc Antony, not only are her two grandfathers brothers, but one of her grandmothers is the sister of her grandfathers as well, and her other grandmother is the daughter of one of her grandfathers by his other sister. The only reason she has more than two great grandparents is that one of her grandfathers is also her great grandfather. That is a thing that happened.

The thing is: when you write an RPG world and create a society in which epic incest is a thing that not only happens but is encouraged - you're a pervert and I don't want to talk to you. Not because there haven't been societies that worked like that - there totally have been. But because you know damn well that your stories are not being produced in or for whatever fictional universe you've written up - they are being prepared for a modern audience. If you write in a bunch of incest, it's because you wanted to talk to modern audiences about incest. And that makes you a skeezy pervert.

And the same goes for rape, slavery, or genocide. If you write an RPG world where there's an in-world justification for rape, slavery, or genocide, it's because you, the author, wanted to write about justifications for rape, slavery, or genocide to a modern audience. And that means you're a bad person.

RaHoWa and FATAL are terrible things. But they are not terrible because rape and genocide aren't justified in the setting - they are terrible because rape and genocide are justified in the setting. Writing FATAL or RaHoWa makes you a terrible person.

-Username17

[OgreBattle]

Frank, how can I improve my dot connecting skills to the level of you and K writing Races of War or any of those other fun to read TOME compilations? I like the conclusions you drew about the weird everyone-steals-so-its-like-sharing goblin society or just figuring out that the sahaugins are the sore winners of the setting.

Is there a certain mindset to have, or certain pitfalls to look out for?