FrankTrollman wrote:Yes. I can't parse your arguments. Your arguments are so thoroughly self refuting that I have difficulty even understanding why you don't just apologize for having wasted everyone's time.
Explain what about my assertion that Obi-Wan and subsequently Anakin are knight-level capability and only waiting for the formality of the promotion was hard for you to follow. Explain what part of that you thought was even
slightly difficult to parse. Not what you thought was
wrong or whatever, but what you thought was
hard to understand. Because that is, in fact, the argument that you claimed was "shifting the goal posts" despite being contained in my original post. You keep trying to distract from that fact, hoping that if you're vague enough you can get people to forget how dishonest you've been the entire time you've been talking to me, but dude, I can just bring it up again. There's no version of this where you win.
Not only is there no evidence for your assertion, but the "Tell Us Now!" bit by Anakin actually is a fairly persuasive piece of evidence in the opposite direction.
And thus the truth comes out. That's not a mind trick. The Sleazebaggano mind trick is listed on Wookieepedia, but they don't have that one just a few minutes later in the movie, because there is nothing in the film to indicate that this is in any way a mind trick. It's just a threat. Obi-Wan is taken aback because Anakin is getting angry as Hell, which is happening because he's interrogating an assassin who tried to kill his crush. That's Anakin's actual character arc, which you are, of course, unable to identify, because you have no idea how narrative works. I am not even slightly surprised, but thank you for immediately providing evidence to support my accusation that you are incompetent at parsing storytelling language.
The Force has rules. Those are wishy washy rules, and there is room for various authors to pull out various weird exceptions, and they totally do that way too often. But actually factually Mind Trick is a basic Force power that is the first Force power of a lot of Force sensitive characters. It just is. It literally always has been.
So now you're falling back on "it makes sense if you read the books!" again. No matter how many times you reassert this, it's still going to be something that has been known to have been wrong for well over a decade. The only thing that matters to a piece of media is the media that precedes it in its own series, not decades-old books in entirely separate series' from a no-longer canon version of the setting.
Which brings us to your weird "audience expectation" arguments, which are complete unparseable horse shit.
You later go on to explain that you have difficulty parsing this because you are a myopic idiot. "There exists at least one person with sufficient background information to make sense of this" is not the same as "the audience has sufficient background information to make sense of this," especially not when the background information in question has been decanonized by the movie in question. Even people who
have read/played the same material as you can't reliably come to the conclusion you did, and you sure as Hell can't expect that from the audience, because, despite your narcissistic presumption, the audience is more people than just you.
And this is the argument: You chasing your own tail and trying
very hard to pretend that everything you have to say isn't just dumb, but dumb
in a completely uncontroversial way. When Halo fanboys said that the plot of the games is good if you read the books, the response is that the games need to stand on their own merits without requiring background reading to comprehend. That argument was settled
fourteen years ago. Now you're digging it up again and pretending that it was settled
the other direction, like pointing to obscure canon not actually presented by the work under discussion is not only a counterargument, but some kind of unassailable checkmate position. That is literally the opposite of true! It's just you doing MGuy-grade "I am not actually going to counterargue what's been presented, I'm just going to pretend it wasn't presented and go on arguing like my opponent isn't even fucking here."
And it's not the only part in the post where you do it, either! Like here:
So you need to find some scene somewhere where it strongly implies that the Star Wars lore is wrong.
The scene from Return of the Jedi, where Luke Force chokes a dude and later mind tricks a dude, two Force powers that previously only fully trained Jedi had been seen to use. The purpose of that scene is to demonstrate that Luke has now arrived as a Jedi knight, because he can use powers he previously could not. This isn't the first time I've brought this up. Like, I'm not saying that I find your argument as to why that scene doesn't qualify to be lacking. I'm saying you literally didn't even present one. You just walked right past it under the hope that maybe if you pretended that you'd already rebutted that argument, no one would notice. I don't know why you expected to get away with that.
Now, I know you well enough to know where you're going to go next with this. You're going to put on your usual "too cool for school" act where you pretend that well
obviously [lunatic bullshit counterargument that is neither obvious nor true] and you just thought it didn't even need to be stated. I feel like I should warn you in advance that this has never been convincing. The kinds of people who will actually believe you thought such an argument was obvious is limited to those who are both very foolish and have poor self-esteem, but honestly, you're a petty, dishonest bully hoping to use insults and misleading rhetoric to drive off the other party of an argument without having to concede that you have made not one, but multiple clearly false arguments in favor of your position, that indeed, people who wanted to argue for your position would be better off if you shut up and walked away because the twin self-inflicted injuries of rattling off whatever argument first comes to mind and trusting on rhetoric to buffalo it through no matter how stupid it is and a narcissistic unwillingness to ever admit to fault no matter how obviously one of your supporting arguments has failed and how much better off you'd be if you walked away from it and at least aspired to be
specious instead of clinging to everything you've ever said no matter how wrong. So let's not pretend you don't know this tactic is useful exclusively for getting people to side with you whether or not what you're saying is true, and that it's something you pull out only when you have realized the position you are defending is false, and you continue to defend it anyway.
Kaelik wrote:I once saw a person learning to play basketball. He started by shooting free throws, then he learned how to dribble.
Hey, remember when I told you that stories are about
precedent, not
data, because they are fictitious works created intentionally by human beings and not real phenomena that arise from natural chaos with tons of outliers? That's still true. You can't just reassert your bullshit like I never responded to you. You have to actually address the counterargument.