The Shadowrun Situation

[Stahlseele]

Ah, that's right. Wasn't it the Great Ghost Dance that caused the mana to spike up faster than expected and force the big D to sacrifice himself in order to slow the Invae down ?

Hah, no, if i have my timeline correct, the GGD was YEARS before the azzies really started building their bridge . . But in retrospect, of course, the GGD was the cause for the azzies to start building their bridge, because they found the spike that a blood magic ritual of these epic proportions left and decided to build on that . .

[Otakusensei]

Ah, right, I forgot about the Shedim. So there's another dimension scouring force you can't negotiate with.

That shit is exactly what you need more of in your street level games. Extraplanar menaces that can't be reasoned with.

[Stahlseele]

Well, certain insect spirits can be reasoned with . . But only the mantids, because they eat other insects . . and spider . . maybe . .

[Quantumboost]

The various types of insect spirits don't really like each other that much, so you can plausibly use the extermination of other hives as a carrot when talking with other hives. At least, so long as the other hives are a significant obstacle in that stage of the infestation.

[Username17]

Mantids hate other insects, but this in no way makes them nice people. Any Insect is capable of negotiating, and of breeding by stealing bodies from like pigs and shit. Technically, Mantids are the only ones that have to murder sapient beings, so choosing their side over the others is clinically retarded.

Teaming up with ants or termites against mantids makes a fair amount of sense.

-Username17

[Caldazar]

Someone put The Corruption Master Plot Arc online. You can read it. Warning: Coleman is a really bad author.

-Username17

Wow, I see someone violated the law by posting this up on the web. This Zeuvembie person is in some seriously hot water. Interesting that you should find this Frank. Did you put this up? Did you receive this from Jennifer Harding? You did this with other information given to you from other people "in the know." Therefore, it stands to reason that you had something to do with this too.

BTW, Frank, Coleman didn't write that information. Jennifer Harding and a few others who were in control of the creative direction of Shadowrun before they abandoned ship like rats, wrote 'The Corruption Master Plot Arc.

The release of this material is something that DSG and JH would do get even with CGL. This is petty and childish as well as illegal. You can bet Topps will be pursuing this with their full weight and to the maximum extent that the law will allow. Question is Frank, will you be included in this fiasco?

[erik]

Oh Caldazar, you are very scary. Alleging that Frank was involved in the posting of this in collusion with the writers while at the same time not knowing who wrote it. Such a water tight accusation!

I'm certain that Topps will be up in arms about this when they aren't even bringing the hammer down upon someone who directly stole thousands of dollars from them.

[Caldazar]

Oh Caldazar, you are very scary. Alleging that Frank was involved in the posting of this in collusion with the writers while at the same time not knowing who wrote it. Such a water tight accusation!

I'm certain that Topps will be up in arms about this when they aren't even bringing the hammer down upon someone who directly stole thousands of dollars from them.

Really? If what you say is true, why hasn't Topps stripped the licenses from CGL and pursued a criminal case against Loren L. Coleman? Do you have an answer? On the other hand it this just more suppositions and assumptions? Quite easy to do that is it not?

Trollman's history of releasing sensitive information is quite clear and established. Questioning him for any culpability and involvement is perfectly justified. He has established he wants to see the complete demise of CGL and Loren L. Coleman and all who associate with the former or latter. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going on and connect the dots. Frank is pissed off that he is no longer on the inside or writing anymore.

So far, his record for being correct on his assumptions and statements of fact has proved to be unfounded and wrong. Just like everyone else, that has opined about the future of Shadowrun and CGL. However, none of you (speaking metaphorically here) will be satisfied unless Coleman is in prison, CGL destroyed, and all others who are involved are destitute and bankrupt. However, wish in one hand and crap in the other. See which one will fill up first. CGL will not collapse, lawsuit or not.

[erik]

Really? If what you say is true, why hasn't Topps stripped the licenses from CGL and pursued a criminal case against Loren L. Coleman? Do you have an answer? On the other hand it this just more suppositions and assumptions? Quite easy to do that is it not?

I can only presume Topps feels they will make more money by not stripping the licenses immediately. Either that or they are real softies.

As for whether it is true, I am of the impression that the perpetrator outright admitted to embezzlement. Why are you even bothering trying to argue against it and calling it supposition when he already confessed?

[Caldazar]

Really? If what you say is true, why hasn't Topps stripped the licenses from CGL and pursued a criminal case against Loren L. Coleman? Do you have an answer? On the other hand it this just more suppositions and assumptions? Quite easy to do that is it not?

I can only presume Topps feels they will make more money by not stripping the licenses immediately. Either that or they are real softies.

As for whether it is true, I am of the impression that the perpetrator outright admitted to embezzlement. Why are you even bothering trying to argue against it and calling it supposition when he already confessed?

Ah, presumptions, like assumptions are the mother of all screw-ups. It gets people in trouble.

Whether or not Coleman admitted to taking money by accident or not, is immaterial now. That is for a court of law, not the court of opinion, to argue should it ever come to that. Calling it supposition is not whether he did this or not, it is all the crap and vitriol spewed afterwards. Example: CGL will never print anything again because the printers will not print for them because CGL screwed them out of money (proven wrong). That CGL's license extension was only for the convention season (proven wrong). Just two suppositions Frank put forward as fact only to be blown out of the water. He, like the rest of the 'anti-CGL' crew are on the outside looking in and have no verifiable proof of what is going on now or for the future.

However, what is not immaterial is releasing confidential proprietary information protected by law. Trying to deflect away from this does not make it go away. Since my question is directed to Mr. Trollman, it hasn't anything to do with you. Therefore, I am waiting on him to answer my questions concerning the releasing of this confidential information.

[virgil]

Deja vu

What is the current state of the CGL license anyway?

[Caldazar]

Deja vu

What is the current state of the CGL license anyway?

Reportedly, the current extension is through the end of the year. CGL and Topps are working on a long-term license in the mean-while.

BTW, your signature is awesome. Gave me a great chuckle. Thanks!

[Crissa]

Is that proven wrong, that four printers would not print for them?

Is it proven wrong that money was embezzled?

I don't understand your post. It seems to be, "Past things must be untrue because further unrelated things have happened."

-Crissa

[erik]

Whether or not Coleman admitted to taking money by accident or not, is immaterial now.

LOL. Is that how it works? Awesome. I'd suggest that the confession is still somewhat germane when the topic of discussion pivots upon "Did he do it?"

That is for a court of law, not the court of opinion, to argue should it ever come to that. Calling it supposition is not whether he did this or not, it is all the crap and vitriol spewed afterwards.

What is to argue? He said he did it. There's a reason prosecutors looooove confessions. It pretty much ends any potential argument unless he's crazy.

Are you suggesting that Coleman is crazy?

p.s. If you want only one person to call you on bullshit then PM your bullshit directly to that person. If you dump trash in my neighborhood and explain that it is for someone else to clean up, I'll still tell you and those damn kids to get off my lawn.

[DragonChild]

Frank is pissed off that he is no longer on the inside or writing anymore.

Obviously... because having your name on a crappy book filled with stupid loopholes (bloodzilla, anyone?) that you knew how to fix and were ignored from is far, far more important than getting a med degree, or writing your own system that is of higher quality.

If you're going to make unfounded, bullshit statements like that, I'm going to ask you why the "pro-CGL" types are fully OK with sexually harassing single mothers that were refused money for jobs they had completed. Why are you supporting sexual harassment?

(yes, i know it's ridiculous. but my part actually happened, yours didn't)

[Centurion13]

Ah, presumptions, like assumptions are the mother of all screw-ups. It gets people in trouble.

Whether or not Coleman admitted to taking money by accident or not, is immaterial now. That is for a court of law, not the court of opinion, to argue should it ever come to that. Calling it supposition is not whether he did this or not, it is all the crap and vitriol spewed afterwards. Example: CGL will never print anything again because the printers will not print for them because CGL screwed them out of money (proven wrong). That CGL's license extension was only for the convention season (proven wrong). Just two suppositions Frank put forward as fact only to be blown out of the water. He, like the rest of the 'anti-CGL' crew are on the outside looking in and have no verifiable proof of what is going on now or for the future.

However, what is not immaterial is releasing confidential proprietary information protected by law. Trying to deflect away from this does not make it go away. Since my question is directed to Mr. Trollman, it hasn't anything to do with you. Therefore, I am waiting on him to answer my questions concerning the releasing of this confidential information.

Wow. You sound like Clutch, only without the charm.

I, at least, am not anti-CGL. I am, however, very anti-Lorin El Stoleman and anyone who sides with that mansion-loving crook - including you, my fuzzy four-posts-to-his-name shill.

Get rid of the crooks and the twisters and the sycophants and don't let the door hit you in the ass as you leave with them.

Jeter les coquins, yo!

Cent13

[Caldazar]

Is that proven wrong, that four printers would not print for them?

Yes, four printers. They are printing for CGL. The very same ones that Frank and a few others called and "alerted" them of Coleman's supposed transgressions, as he did in his numerous calls and emails to Topps.

Is it proven wrong that money was embezzled?

Wait, was Coleman convicted in a court of law? Did Coleman actually say he embezzled? Those are your words. Coleman admitted to making the mistake of comingling person funds with CGL funds. That happens sometimes. However, after reading the thousands of posts on this very subject, he was convicted in the court of public opinion based on supposition, presumptions, and convoluted information seemingly released by disgruntled former employees and a group of anger owners bent on taking over the company. All in an attempt to discredit all involved in CGL.

I don't understand your post. It seems to be, "Past things must be untrue because further unrelated things have happened."

You don't understand my post because you are too blinded by your hatred for Coleman, Bills, and anyone else involved. You only hear part of the story, information released taken out of context, and disinformation from a few "prominent people" who use to be involved. All of whom have an axe to grind. And you want to trust them to give you unbiased information? No wonder you cannot comprehend my post.

Wow. You sound like Clutch, only without the charm.

Charm is for those who are faint at heart and easily disturbed when Political Correctness is not observed.

I, at least, am not anti-CGL. I am, however, very anti-Lorin El Stoleman and anyone who sides with that mansion-loving crook - including you, my fuzzy four-posts-to-his-name shill.

You are not 'Anti-CGL?' Hmm...I think if I took the time, I could find a number of your posts that will prove you to be intellectually dishonest. However, I'm not going to do that because that would mean getting into the pig pen. I'll leave the mudslinging and name calling to people who have to cover up their own short comings.

Get rid of the crooks and the twisters and the sycophants and don't let the door hit you in the ass as you leave with them.

Funny that you use three descriptive words. I'll address all of them.

1. Crooks – Has anyone been convicted in a court of law, namely Loren L. Coleman? Umm...no. Randall Bills? Huh...again, no. Jason Hardy? Let me see...nope. Herb Beas, Ken Horner, or anyone affiliated with CGL? The answer to all is no. Therefore, by definition, no one is a criminal or crook. That requires conviction of a crime.

However, the court of public opinion is another thing. According to you and a great deal of others the entire aforementioned are guilty, therefore crooks. Fortunately, public opinion carries as much weight as a pebble, especially when it comes to a situation like this.

2. Twisters – Normally referred to a vortex of cooler air formed when cold air interacts with warm air. However, in the context you are referring too, by definition, a great many people, such as yourself, fall into this category. When one lives in a glass house, they should not be throwing stones.

3. Sycophants – According to the dictionary this means, “someone praising powerful people for personal advantage." An insulting word for someone who praises rich or power people in order to gain an advantage.

Interesting. Did you know this? Apparently not. The implications that anyone who happens to question the opinions or actions of others that go against the “so called” belief emphatically stated here and other places, falls short of the definition of the word. One can defend something they believe, on either side of the line, and not be a Sycophant. However, when one does so for personal gain or favor, then they are, according to the definition, a sycophant. I don’t see anyone doing so and I have lurked a number of places for a very long time. My four posts mean nothing, except for those who have cliquish tendencies and beliefs.

However, if I were to use this word in a sentence with your name in it in the manner you imply, would I be wrong? Not by your use of the word. But I won’t because that is an ad hominem attack. I will not involve myself in such actions, that I will leave up to you as your last statement implied.

Obviously... because having your name on a crappy book filled with stupid loopholes (bloodzilla, anyone?) that you knew how to fix and were ignored from is far, far more important than getting a med degree, or writing your own system that is of higher quality.

And we know this as the truth because Frank Tillman says so? Did he not tell you the real reason he “parted ways?” That it involved a small amount of money and him pitching a fit like a child because everyone else (all writers and developers) did not agree with him? Interesting. I dare say that believing someone who has an axe to grind and is intentionally acting in a manner to cause harm to others by whatever means necessary is someone I’d not want to trust for being a bastion of truth.

If you're going to make unfounded, bullshit statements like that, I'm going to ask you why the "pro-CGL" types are fully OK with sexually harassing single mothers that were refused money for jobs they had completed. Why are you supporting sexual harassment?

CGL sexually harassed an employee? Are you referring to Jennifer Harding? She was done in this manner? Hmm…in all her statements she made publicly, she never made mention of this. You say they refused to pay her? I read on Dumpshock that she received payment on all contracts, as she was due. On the other hand, are you referring to yourself? Let’s look at the definition of Sexual Harassment, shall we?

unwanted sexual advances: unwanted sex-related behavior toward somebody, e.g. touching somebody or making suggestive remarks, especially by somebody with authority toward a subordinate.

Did anyone at CGL do this to you or Jennifer Harding? If so, it is time to file your compliant. I am friends with a number of attorneys who specialize in these areas. I will gladly give you some names to help you. Sexual harassment is very ugly and one that I do not condone.

However, making such an accusation is just as bad. Do you have irrefutable proof? Alternatively, are you making an unfounded statement as you accused me of doing? You are treading upon this slippery slope. Be careful, if you lose your balance it is a long ways to fall.

(yes, i know it's ridiculous. but my part actually happened, yours didn't)

In addition, you know this did not happen to me, how?

LOL. Is that how it works? Awesome. I'd suggest that the confession is still somewhat germane when the topic of discussion pivots upon "Did he do it?"

Somewhat germane? Let me see, did Coleman state he embezzled? Did he try to cover it up? Umm…according to what Randall stated and others that backed up Randall’s statement, he did nothing of the sort. It was Coleman that order the books reviewed to find out the problem.
However, as I stated to Crissa above, exclusively the detractors and pundits use the word embezzlement. Everyone is a legal expert, financial expert, business expert, and whatever expert. An expert is only as good as the information they have to make a judgment on. In this case, the only information released is from those trying to destroy CGL as a company and its current employees. You want to make a decision based on half-truths and disinformation, be my guest. However, will you be man enough to admit you are wrong when the truth comes out (if it ever does) that all of this so called “factual” information provided by those “in the know” is wrong?

What is to argue? He said he did it. There's a reason prosecutors looooove confessions. It pretty much ends any potential argument unless he's crazy.

Making an admission of wrongdoing does not constitute a crime when a crime was committed in the first place. Lack of judgment and business savvy does not a criminal make. Except of course, in the court of public opinion. Then everyone damns the person and wishes all kinds of ill on said individual.

Apparently, innocent until proven otherwise has no meaning in the fan base here or other places. Say, what are you going to say if it is revealed that an individual how posts here on this message board is found to have released said confidential proprietary information and is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law? You going to give them a pass because they are against CGL and Coleman?

Are you suggesting that Coleman is crazy?

I’ll leave that to those who feel they must make ad hominem statements, have their fun.

p.s. If you want only one person to call you on bullshit then PM your bullshit directly to that person. If you dump trash in my neighborhood and explain that it is for someone else to clean up, I'll still tell you and those damn kids to get off my lawn.

This is an open forum. I am using it in the same manner as yourself and everyone else who has an opinion. The subject of my original post deals with the unlawful release of confidential proprietary information. Who is responsible, and the underlying reasoning behind their actions for doing so, and who supplied said information? It is obvious by some replies that this is condoned because it hurts the company and therefore Loren Coleman. Otherwise, a great uproar should be heard because somebody decided to take it upon himself or herself to spoil the future of a game loved by millions, myself included. You don’t want to focus on that, that is your choice. Far be it from me to force you to focus on something other than the continuation of beating the remnants of a carcass.

[Crissa]

We're not police. Nor a court of law. You are not guilty until proven innocent or vice versa here.

Besides, we have a huge post here apparently claim the theft did not happen. Why would you claim something which has been admitted to, in court, as not happening?

What hate have I for this guy? I don't play Shadowrun. I really don't care. What proof do you have that I hate the guy? A bit envious of his house, certainly, and his friends - I don't think my friends would stick with me if I admitted to stealing even a hundredth that much money.

-Crissa

[Kaelik]

Is that proven wrong, that four printers would not print for them?

Yes, four printers. They are printing for CGL. The very same ones that Frank and a few others called and "alerted" them of Coleman's supposed transgressions, as he did in his numerous calls and emails to Topps.

Funny how you start your post with this, then talk about how other people are in the wrong for not having total proof without the ability to compel testimony.

Don't suppose you have any evidence for your wild claims? These ones or any others.

[TarkisFlux]

He's arguing semantics Crissa. He's saying that theft and embezzlement require convictions in court, which we don't have. Since the only thing that has been admitted to was commingling of funds, we shouldn't be talking about crimes or whatever.

[DragonChild]

First, she only got paid well after the fact, and after she fucking fought for it. Thanks to people like Frank. You know, who helped her fight over the fact that she wasn't being fucking paid until this all got blown public and taken to court.

But of course, you'd rather Frank have just stayed silent and people to have not been paid, I'm sure? Or is it instead good that Frank spoke out?

However, making such an accusation is just as bad. Do you have irrefutable proof? Alternatively, are you making an unfounded statement as you accused me of doing? You are treading upon this slippery slope. Be careful, if you lose your balance it is a long ways to fall.

Read the dumpshock forums, where whenever she made a post on the thread about this incident, people would drive it off-top about how they wanted to see her sexy belly, and on and on, refusing to talk about the subject and constantly drive it off-topic. And the moderators would not do anything, including the one(s?) that were working for CGL at the time.

So while it may not be anything you can bring to court, making a joke and acting like this over people asking someone to show pictures of themselves for the purpose of seeing how "sexy" it is when the topic at hand is how she's not being paid for work she had done.

And if you want to be joking around about that, you are a terrible person.

In addition, you know this did not happen to me, how?

I'm saying your crazy allegations that Frank is just bitter that he doesn't write for shadowrun anymore have never happened. If Frank was bitter over it, we'd fucking know. I mean, other game designers have severed his head and put it on a pike - him choosing not to write for a company because he didn't like the products they were putting out is small, in comparison.

[Username17]

CGL sexually harassed an employee? Are you referring to Jennifer Harding? She was done in this manner? Hmm…in all her statements she made publicly, she never made mention of this.

Dude. It was in public. Bull seriously made a series of demeaning and sexually aggressive forum posts about Jennifer Harding for the explicit and admitted purpose of disrupting debate and reducing the chance that she was going to receive compensation for her labor.

She doesn't have to make public accusations. The sexual harassment happened. In public.

Stop being such a fucking transparent shill for a moment. If you don't understand something, it's entirely possible that you just don't understand it. Not everything is cloaks and daggers and shadowy innuendo. Sometimes it's just a CGL employee being a skeevy and aggressive pervert in public places.

-Username17

[Centurion13]

It is obvious by some replies that this is condoned because it hurts the company and therefore Loren Coleman. Otherwise, a great uproar should be heard because somebody decided to take it upon himself or herself to spoil the future of a game loved by millions, myself included. You don’t want to focus on that, that is your choice. Far be it from me to force you to focus on something other than the continuation of beating the remnants of a carcass.

Spoken like a true twister. You sound like a lawyer defending a crook, buddy. Your phrases reek of it. I have news for you - you can yakkety-yak until the sun goes out. Your words don't change what has happened and they has less than nothing to do with what will happen.

Yak all night if you like. It's your life - or lack thereof.

And thanks for the clues. I think I know who you are Not much of a change from the old boards, eh?

Cent13

[Dr_Noface]

This Caldazar guy seems kind of stupid.

[MGuy]

I'm struggling to understand why Caldazar would bring his shit over to these boards. If he considers us Frank's "Troops" it seems retarded to even post here. Trolling perhaps?