D&D 5e has failed
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- rasmuswagner
- Knight-Baron
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I riffed an obvious joke on ISPs virgin insult; not condoning it, just having fun. I also implied that the world would be a better place if Mearls didn't actually pass on his genes.
I like how the Den's brand of Big Purple Fuckery (this tone discussion) is "your insults against this specific named individual were not sufficiently creative or viscious".
I like how the Den's brand of Big Purple Fuckery (this tone discussion) is "your insults against this specific named individual were not sufficiently creative or viscious".
Every time you play in a "low magic world" with D&D rules (or derivates), a unicorn steps on a kitten and an orphan drops his ice cream cone.
So again, your best case scenario is that three people, Ramus, ISP, and maglag are dumb.
All the other people think ISP is dumb, no one said anything in support of anything Ramus said, and no one said anything in support maglag.
So I guess the point here is:
Hey Grek, which of these looks more like the Den to you?
1) ISP, Ramus, maglag.
2) The people who criticized them: Kaelik, DSM, Virgil, deadDM.
I guess the main point is that if you want to call Ramus, maglag and ISP stupid "The Den" is probably not the best criticism for that group.
All the other people think ISP is dumb, no one said anything in support of anything Ramus said, and no one said anything in support maglag.
So I guess the point here is:
Hey Grek, which of these looks more like the Den to you?
1) ISP, Ramus, maglag.
2) The people who criticized them: Kaelik, DSM, Virgil, deadDM.
I guess the main point is that if you want to call Ramus, maglag and ISP stupid "The Den" is probably not the best criticism for that group.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Yeah, fair enough.
FrankTrollman wrote:I think Grek already won the thread and we should pack it in.
Chamomile wrote:Grek is a national treasure.
- momothefiddler
- Knight-Baron
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I mean, the world would be a better place if I didn't pass on my genes, but now I'm just being pedantic.rasmuswagner wrote:I riffed an obvious joke on ISPs virgin insult; not condoning it, just having fun. I also implied that the world would be a better place if Mearls didn't actually pass on his genes.
I still don't really understand what you're getting at, but I'm happy to accept that as a me problem and drop it.
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- Apprentice
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A long fucking time ago. Check your intellectual integrity at the door.Grek wrote:The whole virgin thing is childish. But this weird tribalistic "I want to believe every 'bad' thing about 5e and Mike Mearls, truth or not" bullshit is actually deeply troubling. When did the Den start being full of dishonest shills and willful liars?
Oh goody, you showed up just in time to quote the person after they recanted the thing you quoted. EHAN TIMING!Neon Sequitur wrote:A long fucking time ago. Check your intellectual integrity at the door.Grek wrote:The whole virgin thing is childish. But this weird tribalistic "I want to believe every 'bad' thing about 5e and Mike Mearls, truth or not" bullshit is actually deeply troubling. When did the Den start being full of dishonest shills and willful liars?
But I think you will find that the answer you were looking for was "When the addition I like was announced, and they didn't praise it as the greatest thing to ever exist before it came out."
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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- Duke
- Posts: 1854
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:21 am
That is an impressive typo.EHAN TIMING!
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.
? Do you... Like, do you know what it even is? Because I'll be honest, I've only ever heard it and I didn't bother to look it up, but it's like, one letter off....You Lost Me wrote:That is an impressive typo.EHAN TIMING!
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
I don't actually like 5e. I just happen to play it because that's what my group wants to play sometimes. And it annoys me when people make fun of things for flaws that aren't real when there are so many real flaws to care about.Kaelik wrote:But I think you will find that the answer you were looking for was "When the addition I like was announced, and they didn't praise it as the greatest thing to ever exist before it came out."
FrankTrollman wrote:I think Grek already won the thread and we should pack it in.
Chamomile wrote:Grek is a national treasure.
I was specifically quoting and responding to the random 5e asshole who believes 5e has sold more PHBs than 3e, not you.Grek wrote:I don't actually like 5e. I just happen to play it because that's what my group wants to play sometimes. And it annoys me when people make fun of things for flaws that aren't real when there are so many real flaws to care about.Kaelik wrote:But I think you will find that the answer you were looking for was "When the addition I like was announced, and they didn't praise it as the greatest thing to ever exist before it came out."
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
For the record, dearly beloved Mearls clarified later on https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/7 ... 7520851968
That when he said "3+3.5+4e < 5e" what he really meant was "ignore all those plus signs, that's me lying my fucking ass off knowing that no one will ever see my correction."
So in conclusion, 5e PHB has still undersold "lifetime sales" of 3e+3.5, even including pdfs and shit.
That when he said "3+3.5+4e < 5e" what he really meant was "ignore all those plus signs, that's me lying my fucking ass off knowing that no one will ever see my correction."
So in conclusion, 5e PHB has still undersold "lifetime sales" of 3e+3.5, even including pdfs and shit.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
- JonSetanta
- King
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I play 5e. It's not better or worse than 3e, but it is different.
It's easier for the new players to learn, that's for sure.
As for the price... eh.... someone's stuffing their pockets.
Good thing I know my way around the darker regions of the internet and grabbed some PDFs. Like, all of them.
It's easier for the new players to learn, that's for sure.
As for the price... eh.... someone's stuffing their pockets.
Good thing I know my way around the darker regions of the internet and grabbed some PDFs. Like, all of them.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
- momothefiddler
- Knight-Baron
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I'm honestly surprised it beat 3.5 even alone. Is that because of PDFs or what?Kaelik wrote:For the record, dearly beloved Mearls clarified later on https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/7 ... 7520851968
That when he said "3+3.5+4e < 5e" what he really meant was "ignore all those plus signs, that's me lying my fucking ass off knowing that no one will ever see my correction."
So in conclusion, 5e PHB has still undersold "lifetime sales" of 3e+3.5, even including pdfs and shit.
- JonSetanta
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momothefiddler wrote: I'm honestly surprised it beat 3.5 even alone. Is that because of PDFs or what?
http://www.d20srd.org/
Last edited by JonSetanta on Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
I don't know specifics, but I would guess that the 3.0 PHB outsold the 3.5.momothefiddler wrote:I'm honestly surprised it beat 3.5 even alone. Is that because of PDFs or what?
What I'm guessing is that "lifetime sales"is weaselwords that means 3.0 PHBs sold after 3.5 was written don't count, and that they are including all the 5e pdf sales as separate sales, including the free ones you get with your physical copy of the book bought on Amazon.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
- momothefiddler
- Knight-Baron
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Ah. Okay. Seems likely those are counted double, yeah.Kaelik wrote:I don't know specifics, but I would guess that the 3.0 PHB outsold the 3.5.momothefiddler wrote:I'm honestly surprised it beat 3.5 even alone. Is that because of PDFs or what?
What I'm guessing is that "lifetime sales"is weaselwords that means 3.0 PHBs sold after 3.5 was written don't count, and that they are including all the 5e pdf sales as separate sales, including the free ones you get with your physical copy of the book bought on Amazon.
And yeah, I didn't even start until after 4 was out, so I guess I don't have a real clear separation of 3.0 and 3.5 in my head. Fair enough.
- JonSetanta
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There's little difference between the two 3es.
I literally wrote the changes in pencil in my 3.0 book (the PHB at least)
I literally wrote the changes in pencil in my 3.0 book (the PHB at least)
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Bull. Shit.JonSetanta wrote:There's little difference between the two 3es.
I literally wrote the changes in pencil in my 3.0 book (the PHB at least)
Almost everything changed, but mostly just enough to render everything slightly different. I can't imagine what it would have to look like to accurately write the changes in margins. There isn't room on the Bard page margins for damn sure. At best you literally wrote shorthand or summaries for some of the changes, and I'm damned certain you missed some.
I was still being surprised by changes years after 3.5 came out.
I'm quite serious that Mearls means the 3.0 and 3.5 PHBs they sold from 2010 to 2014, when 4e and Pathfinder were battling it out. He's not even counting the 4e books.
5e lifetime greater than 3.0 and 3.5 during 4e lifetime. They found a number. It's not a big number, but it's a number, and they found another number than is smaller than it. See, he can talk about "editions" because there's 3.0 and 3.5, the rest is him not technically lying.
5e lifetime greater than 3.0 and 3.5 during 4e lifetime. They found a number. It's not a big number, but it's a number, and they found another number than is smaller than it. See, he can talk about "editions" because there's 3.0 and 3.5, the rest is him not technically lying.
PC, SJW, anti-fascist, not being a dick, or working on it, he/him.
I originally suggested that. But based on his clarifications, it is clear that he means at the very least "individual editions separately" not adding any sales together.tussock wrote:I'm quite serious that Mearls means the 3.0 and 3.5 PHBs they sold from 2010 to 2014, when 4e and Pathfinder were battling it out. He's not even counting the 4e books.
5e lifetime greater than 3.0 and 3.5 during 4e lifetime. They found a number. It's not a big number, but it's a number, and they found another number than is smaller than it. See, he can talk about "editions" because there's 3.0 and 3.5, the rest is him not technically lying.
So when you factor in that 3.0 and 3.5 are different, and that you get a free pdf with each book purchase that can count as two sales, I fully believe that 5e has sold more than half the PHBs of 3.0 that were sold in the first three years.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
And suddenly your stupid poll/idea threads make a lot more sense. They're still stupid, but it makes a lot more sense to fuck with numbers in a terrible way when the system itself fails at numbers (which yes, does in fact make the system worse than 3e). And also fails at dealing with any number of concepts and tropes of D&D itself.JonSetanta wrote:I play 5e. It's not better or worse than 3e, but it is different.
It's easier for the new players to learn, that's for sure.
As for easier to learn... yeah. Lacking any meat to it, it certainly is. That doesn't mean complexity is inherently better (see recent PF classes for complexity that adds nothing but stupidity to the system), but 5e has an inexcusable inability to handle the basics of D&D.
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- Duke
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Ok, the only reason 5e is easier to learn is because so much of it is "whatever the hell we made up".
I've had 5e players defend the system with "well we don't care about that stuff, we leave it up to the DM". Which is a way to play I guess. I personally hate it and despise that Mearls and co are charging $150 for a system where 66% is "make it up yourself, thanks for the money" but what do I know?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkRGlNNqmqk
5e in a nutshell.
I've had 5e players defend the system with "well we don't care about that stuff, we leave it up to the DM". Which is a way to play I guess. I personally hate it and despise that Mearls and co are charging $150 for a system where 66% is "make it up yourself, thanks for the money" but what do I know?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkRGlNNqmqk
5e in a nutshell.
I hate 5e as much as the next guy, if not more but is it possible that Mearls is right? That 5e actually sold more books then 3.0?
Now the Amazon data Virgil posted doesn't support that, but the interesting thing that is that it shows 5e PHB sales are actually growing.
The data that does support 5e's growth is the ICv2 data:
http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/3 ... pring-2016
and
http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/3515 ... -2-billion
Where the RPG market grew from 15 mil to 35 mil in two years. According to that data DnD wasn't on the top 5 chart at all in 2013, but since 5e came out it was on top. Added to that is a quote from someone in paizo that 5e didn't hurt their sales (but also they didn't see a substantial increase), it seems that the 20 mil growth over two years is mostly due to 5e.
Lets say they make up for 15 mil of that, and at 30 $ a book that means they sold 500,000 books over two years. Ok I guess that supports Virgils data that suggest 300k PHB's have been sold; if 2/3 of all books sold are PHB's.
TL;DR I'm a stupid fuck who does math while posting.
Now the Amazon data Virgil posted doesn't support that, but the interesting thing that is that it shows 5e PHB sales are actually growing.
The data that does support 5e's growth is the ICv2 data:
http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/3 ... pring-2016
and
http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/3515 ... -2-billion
Where the RPG market grew from 15 mil to 35 mil in two years. According to that data DnD wasn't on the top 5 chart at all in 2013, but since 5e came out it was on top. Added to that is a quote from someone in paizo that 5e didn't hurt their sales (but also they didn't see a substantial increase), it seems that the 20 mil growth over two years is mostly due to 5e.
Lets say they make up for 15 mil of that, and at 30 $ a book that means they sold 500,000 books over two years. Ok I guess that supports Virgils data that suggest 300k PHB's have been sold; if 2/3 of all books sold are PHB's.
TL;DR I'm a stupid fuck who does math while posting.
Yeah Spoiler alert, if 2/3rds of all the books they sold are PHBs (reasonable, since they don't actually make any non core books at all), then they sold 500,000 PHBs, which is still less than 3e.
But hey, if you totally count all the PDFs they "sold" as free copies to all the people that bought the book, and just double that up to 1 mil books, that might beat 3.0 PHBs. (But definitely loses to 3e+3.5).
Basically, everything that has been said everywhere is consistent with the fact that 5e still hasn't sold as well as the best selling edition of D&D 3e, by any non weasel metric.
Which is exactly why Mike Mearls will post blatant lies like "3e+3.5+4e<5e" and then turn around and clarify a week later that when he used plus signs, they were secret metaphorical plus signs that didn't actually mean plus at all.
If you lie big enough, then when people question your lie, they don't come to the actual conclusion which is "Oh look, still not even beating 3.0 sales alone."
But hey, if you totally count all the PDFs they "sold" as free copies to all the people that bought the book, and just double that up to 1 mil books, that might beat 3.0 PHBs. (But definitely loses to 3e+3.5).
Basically, everything that has been said everywhere is consistent with the fact that 5e still hasn't sold as well as the best selling edition of D&D 3e, by any non weasel metric.
Which is exactly why Mike Mearls will post blatant lies like "3e+3.5+4e<5e" and then turn around and clarify a week later that when he used plus signs, they were secret metaphorical plus signs that didn't actually mean plus at all.
If you lie big enough, then when people question your lie, they don't come to the actual conclusion which is "Oh look, still not even beating 3.0 sales alone."
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.