The Shadowrun Situation

[Caldazar]

Here is a fat baby:

Gawd Almighty! That is a huge fat baby! I know his daddy (if he is) must be grunting under that load on his shoulder! LOL

[Kaelik]

Wow, an attempted concern troll of tgd. This just gets funnier and funnier.

[Red_Rob]

wall of text

So, that huge wall of text basically boils down to "please don't use harsh language". Was there actually any content in there? Any new information? If not you owe me three minutes of my life back.

See, when Frank posted information from private, unimpeachable sources he actually told people what the information was. He didn't post the equivalent of "i've got a secret and I'm not going to tell you what it is!"

[Fuchs]

I think that CGL is morally bankrupt, and so are people who support and defend it, is pretty much clear.

[Taharqa]

CGL sexually harassed an employee? Are you referring to Jennifer Harding? She was done in this manner? Hmm…in all her statements she made publicly, she never made mention of this.

Dude. It was in public. Bull seriously made a series of demeaning and sexually aggressive forum posts about Jennifer Harding for the explicit and admitted purpose of disrupting debate and reducing the chance that she was going to receive compensation for her labor.

She doesn't have to make public accusations. The sexual harassment happened. In public.

Stop being such a fucking transparent shill for a moment. If you don't understand something, it's entirely possible that you just don't understand it. Not everything is cloaks and daggers and shadowy innuendo. Sometimes it's just a CGL employee being a skeevy and aggressive pervert in public places.

-Username17

The only thing perverted there, Frank, is your gross manipulation of the facts. While Bull may happen to be a freelancer for CGL, he was certainly not operating in that capacity when he made those statements, nor was it part of some grand plan by CGL to deny JH's claims. And when did he admit that his purpose was for "reducing the chance that she was going to receive compensation for her labor?"

Just because somebody who happens to be in the "pro-CGL" camp did something stupid and perhaps "wrong" does not mean you can transfer those acts onto CGL or other people in the camp. If that were the case, Cent13 would have sunk your guys' boat long ago.

[DragonChild]

The only thing perverted there, Frank, is your gross manipulation of the facts

Note that your statement when read literally is saying that it was not perverted to, when a woman was talking about how she was not being paid for work rendered, suddenly barge in and ask her for revealing pictures.

[knasser]

You lied and misrepresented in the "and by extension would" part, as wall as the "something he welcomed them to try

Having listened to the podcast, Frank's reading of it may be accurate, but can't be shown to be accurate. Randall Bills put it forward in a casual conversation sort of way.

That said, you wouldn't actually clap your hands with glee whilst exclaiming how you didn't have to pay people for their work. It's a bit of an odd thing to bring up. Factually, it's saying 'we were forced to pay people for their work, but if we'd known then what we know now, we could have gotten away with it".

Now there's no evidence in that he's saying "we would have gotten away with it" instead of "could", but it has to be conceded to Frank that given what we know and CGL's behaviour, they wouldn't have suddenly started rushing out checks if they hadn't been forced to. Ergo, Randall is saying that if they had known this back then, they would have continued selling without paying.

So by that logic (which seems supportable to me), Frank's "by extension would", is actually correct based on the facts as far as the past is concerned and as far as the future is concerned, we presume that in similar circumstances with the same people at the helm, they would behave in such a manner.

Actually that's a good point. If the contract says "you retain no copyright to anything you write", and then CGL doesn't, you know... *pay* you, then they've broken the contract, and any stipulations in it don't apply.

I'm not certain this is actually correct. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it can work differently. If one party violates the terms of their contract, that doesn't give you a certain freedom from your obligations. You sue them for breach of contract to make them honour their part of the contract, not to make the contract null and void (well you sometimes do the latter, but it may not be up to you). So in the case of CGL's broken contracts, they have a legal obligation to pay you and you can take them to court to make them do so, but that may be all. If they can't pay you, then it moves on to other things, such as giving you the rights to the work back in lieu of payment, etc. As always with law, this is a simplification. Also, I know UK law better than I do the USA's.

K.

[Crissa]

*sigh* Disinterest has torn me from reading Caldazar's post. It's horribly impolite, but here he is saying that one of our best witnesses is wrong... Without actually providing any evidence said witness is wrong.

Look, you can't just say someone is lying unless you provide evidence to the contrary.

If there is evidence, show it. Else fuck off. Please.

-Crissa

Which leaves...who? Herb Beas? Who knows nothing of Shadowrun?

Are you certain of this? Would you stake your reputation and livelihood as a writer this is true? Think about it before you answer, because assuming is the mother of all screw-ups.

What does this even mean? His reputation as a writer has fuck-all to do with his ability to guess what other people are available to do work gratis. Why would you even argue that point? Are you someone other than Herb Beas who did said work for gratis?

[Kaelik]

CGL sexually harassed an employee? Are you referring to Jennifer Harding? She was done in this manner? Hmm…in all her statements she made publicly, she never made mention of this.

Dude. It was in public. Bull seriously made a series of demeaning and sexually aggressive forum posts about Jennifer Harding for the explicit and admitted purpose of disrupting debate and reducing the chance that she was going to receive compensation for her labor.

She doesn't have to make public accusations. The sexual harassment happened. In public.

Stop being such a fucking transparent shill for a moment. If you don't understand something, it's entirely possible that you just don't understand it. Not everything is cloaks and daggers and shadowy innuendo. Sometimes it's just a CGL employee being a skeevy and aggressive pervert in public places.

-Username17

The only thing perverted there, Frank, is your gross manipulation of the facts. While Bull may happen to be a freelancer for CGL, he was certainly not operating in that capacity when he made those statements, nor was it part of some grand plan by CGL to deny JH's claims. And when did he admit that his purpose was for "reducing the chance that she was going to receive compensation for her labor?"

Just because somebody who happens to be in the "pro-CGL" camp did something stupid and perhaps "wrong" does not mean you can transfer those acts onto CGL or other people in the camp. If that were the case, Cent13 would have sunk your guys' boat long ago.

Could you point to where Frank claims that Bull was acting in an official capacity with those statements, or where he claims that those acts transfer back to CGL?

[Dr_Noface]

hello

[Taharqa]

You lied and misrepresented in the "and by extension would" part, as wall as the "something he welcomed them to try

Having listened to the podcast, Frank's reading of it may be accurate, but can't be shown to be accurate. Randall Bills put it forward in a casual conversation sort of way.

That said, you wouldn't actually clap your hands with glee whilst exclaiming how you didn't have to pay people for their work. It's a bit of an odd thing to bring up. Factually, it's saying 'we were forced to pay people for their work, but if we'd known then what we know now, we could have gotten away with it".

I listened to the podcast as well, but heard something very different. What I heard RB say was "we did what the writers who pulled copyright asked us to do even though we actually didn't have to." He was clearly trying to establish that CGL was keeping good faith with the writers. Only in this upside-down forum does that get turned around in the manner you imply.

[virgil]

What I heard RB say was "we did what the writers who pulled copyright asked us to do even though we actually didn't have to." He was clearly trying to establish that CGL was keeping good faith with the writers. Only in this upside-down forum does that get turned around in the manner you imply.

Eh, that kind of quote sounds more like "I did it 'cause I wanted to, not because you made me." That sounds/feels condescending and childish to me.

[Ancient History]

Yeah, the "private, unimpeachable" sources comment annoys the hell out of me, if only because an unimpeachable source doesn't exist.

In your mind, it does not. However, in the real world, it does. You should really get out of the mindset of the Shadowrun era Bobbie. I believe your outlook would be brighter.

I think your credibility would be higher if you could get my name right.

wives, etc.

Second: Loren and Randal liars, including their wives? By your own admission, you have not had much interaction with Randall, let alone with his wife. How can you quantify your statement as fact?

I was going to chop this into little pieces, but long story short: Heather Coleman and Tara Bills, the wives, are also part owners of IMR with their husbands. Well, Heather is anyway, since apparently Randall just traded in his money for the future promise of eventual shares. Tara in particular has actually worked as an employee of the company. Loren and Heather stole the money (chart 1, chart 2), Randall has supported him in his theft (memo), and Randall's wife Tara has supported Randall and works for CGL...yeah, I think I feel pretty good about

Is it because they do not respond to you in an email in a period of your likening? Alternatively, do you have verifiable proof that Randall & Tara Bills lied to you? What about Loren? What proof, hard factual proof do you possess that supports your accusation he and Heather are liars?

Y'know, the truth is I never did talk to Randall or Loren much, and Tara only once, and always by email. Never actually talked to Heather. So the personal lying-to-my-face proof would have to be the legal contracts we signed that they did not honor, and the revelation that the reason they did not honor them had everything to do with Loren and Heather living out of the CGL piggybank instead of paying freelancers like me. The iPods Loren got his kids for Christmas on the company dime would have covered two of my contracts, easy.

This sounds like the case where you called Jason a liar and he called you on it and proved he did not lie to you. You took it upon yourself to take snippets of what he said, again, out of context, and turned it into something it was not. You are good at that.

No...this is in fact not what happened. I called Jason a liar. He took offense at that, which is his right. I based my calling him a liar on three things:
1) He lied to the freelancers during a production chat by producing an unrealistic schedule. Jason countered by saying that he was privy to information I wasn't and that the schedule was accurate, even if it was later delayed.

2) Jason, when informed of the extant of Loren's shenanigans, went directly to Randall Bills and claimed the person was acting against the company. Jason flat-out denies this, but I trust the person that told me this more than Jason.

3) Jason has been a corporate shill, putting out a rose-colored version of events to everyone that will listen. I find this disingenuous as best, and deceitful at worst. His job as line developer is not to act as Loren Coleman's personal PR flak. Ironically, I've stepped in to ask people to give Jason a break when he isn't playing organ-monkey.

After that we get into my many personal misgivings and disagreements with Jason.

Third: Are you not capable of having a conversation without insulting people? Not that I am insulted. This is what I expect from you when challenged on the veracity of your information. You lash out like a wounded animal. One can never win any sort of argument or debate when one resorts to name-calling. It is petulant and childish. It’s disappointing that someone with your writing ability must resort to this type of behavior. You should think about it. It is unbecoming.

I've never been a bastion of 'tact' but your pomposity, bellicosity, poor writing skills, and complete lack of anything resembling credentials offends me.

The owners know exactly what is going on and very involved. However, one of the owners or group did give out information to some random internet person to use as disinformation and discredit people.

Most of the owners know nothing about the day-to-day operations of the individual gamelines; I can't think of more than a handful - counting Loren - that would even be aware of the Corruption plot arc document. As to your latter statement, prove it. I've seen a couple 'owners' get pissy on the forums, but I've yet to see any of them attempt disinformation or to discredit anyone.

You really have a hard-on for Jason. We both know it is because you did not get the job as Shadowrun Line Developer. Man up and admit it. You might feel better.

I was never even in the running; Jen had a better chance of being line developer than I did.

Jason doesn’t play at keeping his cards close to his chest. He knows exactly what is going on and does not reveal proprietary information to the public because they have no right to know about the inner workings of the company, regardless of what people think.

That is the very definition of playing his cards close to his chest. It's a statement, not an insult.

There you go again with the language. The reason I won’t take the word of this said individual is he jumped ship to join in with Sandstorm believing CGL was going bust so he tied himself to the very same people who are doing the best to steal the rights to produce Shadowrun and BattleTech from CGL.

McQ didn't "jump ship." Ghost, you make it sound like he's got an eye patch, a peg leg, a parrot, and a barnacle on his dick. He left in, from what I am told, a professional manner. And I don't know precisely what the hell Sandstorm is up to, but they can't steal the licenses.

Did you know that DSG tried to buy the company from Loren and Randall for a mere pittance of what the company is actually worth?

Did you know this was about the time DSG found out the company was swimming in debt and he figured it was that or bankruptcy?

When refused, he decided it was time to leave, thus had his dad call in the marker on his investment sans loan.

Your timeline is off. Try again later. The bankruptcy suit didn't happen until long after DSG left.

You people sit here and believe Loren is so evil and doing things underhanded. The one, who is actually acting in this manner pulling strings in the background and releasing information, is not Loren or Randall. Would you care to venture who is acting in this manner?

Okay, let's recap: David Stansel-Garner is an underhanded bastard because:
1) He found out the company was in economic trouble because of Loren Coleman's commingling of funds
2) When he tried to address the situation, he was laughed out by Loren and Randall
3) Stuck in an untenable position and two people that wouldn't work with him to fix it, DSG left
4) With nothing else to do with his time, DSG helps start up a new gaming company
5) A couple of his former friends and employees from the old company, having already left some time earlier, agree to join his new company
6) His dad, stuck with an unpaid loan on a company his son no longer has an interest in, agrees to join a bankruptcy lawsuit

Wow, that's a master criminal right there. That's far worse than having never filed the ownership paperwork, commingling funds to the tune of over $726,000 missing from the bank, not paying freelancers, and asking someone to lie to Topps about royalty payments.

Which leaves...who? Herb Beas? Who knows nothing of Shadowrun?

Are you certain of this? Would you stake your reputation and livelihood as a writer this is true? Think about it before you answer, because assuming is the mother of all screw-ups.

I don't know if anyone else is still with us, but Herb Baes is the line developer for BattleTech and, I think, one of the "owners." While admittedly never having met the man, I'd bet my last fucking nickel that Herb was not up on the day-to-day happenings in SR.

Now the only question is whether this is the same shitstain from Cheapassgamer.com forums.

My responses to you are respectful.

No. Let us get this straight: you are wrong. You are demonstrably factually incorrect in several matters. You have pointedly ignored this when your inaccuracies have been pointed out. You have provided zero material to support your position besides an anonymous source which only you have access to. Since you yourself are not a reliable source, and you cannot present any reliable source, you are thus full of fucking shit. Being full of shit is not being respectful. Continuing to follow through insisting you are right when you have not made any effort to prove this is not being respectful.

When Frank Trollman refused to give up his "sources," he had good reasons: he had actually divulged relevant information. You have not. Other people, like myself, came forward to support many of his claims. No one has so far supported anything you have said.

If you want to come in and stir shit up, that's your prerogative, you dickless, brainless, spineless Chuwero cumstain. Just don't complain when I call you like I see you.

[DragonChild]

Threatening someone with jailtime is even more insulting than calling someone names. One of those can cause actual, physical harm - another can't.

[The Vigilante]

You guys (and girls!) are all idiots ! The man has got sources ! Sources which are unimpeachable ! Why won't you all suck it up and accept everything he's got to say ? He's an EXPERT at detecting truth and intent over the intertubes, and it was TOO EASY for him ! You can't win, ACCEPT DEFEAT !!!

[Centurion13]

I still say the prick sounds suspiciously like Clutch.

The phrase 'man-up' was one of the clues, but it could be a case of someone using the 'phrase of the week'.

You know, like 'at the end of the day' or 'going forward' or 'could have a chilling effect'.

Cent13

[Caldazar]

If you want to come in and stir shit up, that's your prerogative, you dickless, brainless, spineless Chuwero cumstain. Just don't complain when I call you like I see you.

OH, I am wounded beyond comprehension!

You are an intelligent and resourceful person, Bobby. I am confident you can find the Easter eggs I left scattered throughout my posts that will tell you I know what I am talking about. The problem I see is you are so close to this that you developed tunnel vision. I wonder if you can overcome it. PM

[The Vigilante]

I can't wait to read the PM that AH's probably going to post back here.

[/sarcasm]

[Dr_Noface]

By sifting through Caldazar's posts for all the aforementioned Easter eggs, I've discovered a clue as to his identity. He is a Mormon.

[Centurion13]

He is a Mormon.

Imagine that...

[The Vigilante]

By sifting through Caldazar's posts for all the aforementioned Easter eggs, I've discovered a clue as to his identity. He is a Mormon.

Now that you mention it, I'm pretty damn sure he's Jason fucking Hardy.

EDIT : either him or Bills.

[Centurion13]

By sifting through Caldazar's posts for all the aforementioned Easter eggs, I've discovered a clue as to his identity. He is a Mormon.

Now that you mention it, I'm pretty damn sure he's Jason fucking Hardy.

EDIT : either him or Bills.

Holy moley. You have got to be kidding. That is what has been in charge of BattleTech all this time?!

Eeewwww. Let your ego take over and you lose everything. I sometimes wonder why such people would bother to attend temple, unless it was to accumulate temporal power.

Cent13

[Maxus]

Personally, I think God would like to have a long talk with Coleman and Bills and a few others involved in creating or worsening this mess.

I'll admit to having never read the book of mormon, but I highly doubt it contains anything along the lines of "Blessed is he who steals the wealth of non-Mormons."

[The Vigilante]

I'll admit to having never read the book of mormon, but I highly doubt it contains anything along the lines of "Blessed is he who steals the wealth of non-Mormons."

You sure have to forgive them if they do though.

[Maxus]

I'll admit to having never read the book of mormon, but I highly doubt it contains anything along the lines of "Blessed is he who steals the wealth of non-Mormons."

You sure have to forgive them if they do though.

No need. They haven't taken any of -my- money or work. All I've lost on this thing is time--which I regard as profit, considering how much food for thought and entertainment I've gotten out of this.

But I sure hope Mormon Jesus is in a good mood that day.