D&DNext: Playtest Review

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:21 am

ModelCitizen wrote:While I see the possible value in rolled hitpoints for monsters only, I also know from my BECMI days that it's a bunch of work I don't want to fucking do.

If it's an unexpected encounter for whatever reason (reason number 1 being "there are players involved"), it's a pain - though various dice rolling programs make this easier. But when you're preparing next session, if you go "Okay, they'll probably fight eighteen bugbears here" it doesn't hurt to roll it all up then - it isn't really holding anything up and can make the combat a little more interesting. Admittedly, it means you have to pay some attention to the rolling of saves (if you do what the rules say you're supposed to do, and roll a separate Ref save for each of the eighteen bugbears, rather than rolling once for everyone), because you can't just go "everything that fails the save dies, everything else survives with X HP left".

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:37 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:The advantage of rolled attributes is the same as the advantage in drawing character cards in Arkham Horror, Runebound, or Talisman: people get forced to play different stuff each game and players have to make the best of unusual or suboptimal archetypes. Rolling attributes makes the game better as a role playing exercise and as a one-shot.

If you roll a 15,13,16,10,12,9 you get to put them where you want, so get to play whatever arch type you want, so that doesn't really force you to have a different character each time. If you have rolled attributes that you both are not allow to re-roll, and must keep in the order rolled, then I could see that argument applying to D&D.

I'm not familiar enough with the games you mention to go further than that.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Previn wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:The advantage of rolled attributes is the same as the advantage in drawing character cards in Arkham Horror, Runebound, or Talisman: people get forced to play different stuff each game and players have to make the best of unusual or suboptimal archetypes. Rolling attributes makes the game better as a role playing exercise and as a one-shot.
If you roll a 15,13,16,10,12,9 you get to put them where you want, so get to play whatever arch type you want, so that doesn't really force you to have a different character each time. If you have rolled attributes that you both are not allow to re-roll, and must keep in the order rolled, then I could see that argument applying to D&D.

I'm not familiar enough with the games you mention to go further than that.

Obviously there is more of a role-play hook if you don't get to order the attributes. But even if you do, there is (at least in theory) a considerable difference between a set where your lowest roll is a 5 and a set where your lowest roll is a 12. It won't be functionally that different, but having a positive modifier in your dump stat and having a large negative modifier in your dump stat is going to be conceptually different. Especially if said dump stat is some mental stat that is nominally supposed to change how the character is played.

-Username17

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:03 pm

Or, if your rolled stats on 5d6 keep best 3 are:
9,10,9,12,14,13

Where someone else has:
18, 16, 17, 14, 12, 17

Can you make a viable character with the top set? Sure.
Do you feel small in the pants next to god stats boy? Yes.

Rolled stats suck, because some people just roll badly when it counts.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:06 pm

sabs wrote:Or, if your rolled stats on 5d6 keep best 3 are:
9,10,9,12,14,13

Where someone else has:
18, 16, 17, 14, 12, 17

Can you make a viable character with the top set? Sure.
Do you feel small in the pants next to god stats boy? Yes.

Rolled stats suck, because some people just roll badly when it counts.

and people will cheat on their rolls see also Apparently Expeditious Retreat, Swift is Broken.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:32 pm

sabs wrote:14/13/12/10/9/9 vs 18/17/17/16/14/12

1: that's vastly less likely than you can imagine. +16 mods is crazy-rare. Having said that, an upper limit on stats, like we have the lower one that the first just makes, is not a bad idea. More than +12 total mods can be a forced reroll.

2: Those 4th, 5th, and 6th stats are basically useless anyway. Sure, you can play an intelligent Paladin or Monk, but no one cares about your extra skill points.

2a: Hell, take your awesome stats and play a Monk, take the crap stats and play a Druid. Guess who wins. Yes, that's asking people to be a bit mature about it, which won't always happen in the real world.

3: In the key stats, you're +2 to your dice rolls. That's much like being one level ahead. That's quite an advantage and not at all equitable, but unless everyone's going to be a dick and hang shit on the guy who rolled bad they should both have their niche.

So, yeh. Rolled parties (3 of 4d6) tend to get a +3 (max 15) character sitting beside a +9 (max 17). Sometimes the good stats go to the more skilled optimiser and they get even further ahead. But at least they're different, you know.

Do you feel small in the pants next to god stats boy?

No, it's mostly when I'm playing a Fighter and someone's lowbie Druid Henchman can do melee better than I can, because he's a bear who has a pet bear and can summon bears and can force the enemy to hang around in melee with them all in a way that I can't join in on.

Mostly I just get bored with optimised point-buy where everyone just uses the same array on the same key stats by class like 4e, which to my eye rather defeats the purpose of having stats at all.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:04 pm

sabs wrote:Or, if your rolled stats on 5d6 keep best 3 are:
9,10,9,12,14,13

Where someone else has:
18, 16, 17, 14, 12, 17

Can you make a viable character with the top set? Sure.
Do you feel small in the pants next to god stats boy? Yes.

Rolled stats suck, because some people just roll badly when it counts.

That's what rerolls are for.

If you use a computer dice roller, it's just one button click. Just reroll until you get stats that you like.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:43 pm

hyzmarca wrote:
sabs wrote:Or, if your rolled stats on 5d6 keep best 3 are:
9,10,9,12,14,13

Where someone else has:
18, 16, 17, 14, 12, 17

Can you make a viable character with the top set? Sure.
Do you feel small in the pants next to god stats boy? Yes.

Rolled stats suck, because some people just roll badly when it counts.
That's what rerolls are for.

If you use a computer dice roller, it's just one button click. Just reroll until you get stats that you like.

You do realize how dumb you sound right?
If I can reroll until I get stats I like, WHY THE FUCK am I rolling at all?
Why don't I just pick stats on a whim? or use a point system so everyone is on the same board for stats.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:45 pm

sabs wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:
sabs wrote:Or, if your rolled stats on 5d6 keep best 3 are:
9,10,9,12,14,13

Where someone else has:
18, 16, 17, 14, 12, 17

Can you make a viable character with the top set? Sure.
Do you feel small in the pants next to god stats boy? Yes.

Rolled stats suck, because some people just roll badly when it counts.
That's what rerolls are for.

If you use a computer dice roller, it's just one button click. Just reroll until you get stats that you like.
You do realize how dumb you sound right?
If I can reroll until I get stats I like, WHY THE FUCK am I rolling at all?
Why don't I just pick stats on a whim? or use a point system so everyone is on the same board for stats.

Well yes, the logical thing to do is just assume that everyone will reroll until they have 18s across the board and skip the time-wasting process.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:47 pm

Those Stats are actually the stats I rolled, and it was my best stats after 2 full rerolls.
While the other stats were what one of the other players rolled. And, Of 5 players, I had the lowest stats rolled of anyone. In 4E where your stat bonus for your primary matters /alot/ it's depressing and not fun.

It might not happen often, but when I roll stats on characters, that's what tends to happen. I roll not just average, but in the mean.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:13 pm

hyzmarca wrote:
sabs wrote:Or, if your rolled stats on 5d6 keep best 3 are:
9,10,9,12,14,13

Where someone else has:
18, 16, 17, 14, 12, 17

Can you make a viable character with the top set? Sure.
Do you feel small in the pants next to god stats boy? Yes.

Rolled stats suck, because some people just roll badly when it counts.
That's what rerolls are for.

If you use a computer dice roller, it's just one button click. Just reroll until you get stats that you like.

ctrl + 8.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:13 pm

Dice hate me for d20 rolls.

But for some reason, every time I do HP rolls, I roll really fucking well. One game where I had a character with 18 con, his level 8 HP, on a D8 hD, was 84 out of a possible max of 96.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:39 pm

In 2nd edition I had an Orc Fighter who had been level drained so many times and had rolled so consistently better on his gained hit dice than on his lost ones that he actually had greater than maximum hit points for his level. That was actually really amusing and literally the only positive memory I have of 25 years of rolling hit points. I've had characters with above, below, and statistically average hit points and none of that brought the slightest interest or joy. Having supermax hit points due to the vagueries and bullshititude of going up and down levels was actually fun. I cannot help but think that there are primary game mechanics you could use that would give a better return than one amusing anecdote in 25 years of gaming on both sides of the screen.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:06 am

FrankTrollman wrote:In 2nd edition I had an Orc Fighter who had been level drained so many times and had rolled so consistently better on his gained hit dice than on his lost ones that he actually had greater than maximum hit points for his level.

That's fucking hilarious.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:15 am

"What doesn't actually kill me just makes me stronger!"

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:35 am

FrankTrollman wrote:In 2nd edition I had an Orc Fighter who had been level drained so many times and had rolled so consistently better on his gained hit dice than on his lost ones that he actually had greater than maximum hit points for his level. That was actually really amusing and literally the only positive memory I have of 25 years of rolling hit points. I've had characters with above, below, and statistically average hit points and none of that brought the slightest interest or joy. Having supermax hit points due to the vagueries and bullshititude of going up and down levels was actually fun. I cannot help but think that there are primary game mechanics you could use that would give a better return than one amusing anecdote in 25 years of gaming on both sides of the screen.

-Username17

How does that work, anyway?

Do you roll the hit dice coming and going? (i.e., go up a level, gain 1d10+CON, lose a level lose a different 1d10+CON, regain a level, gain a different 1d10+CON)

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:51 am

Yes, that is precisely how it works. So at level 1 you might roll 2 HP as a Fighter and you're fucked. But somehow you survive and next level you roll 9, so you have 11 HP. The next level you roll a 7 and are at 18 HP. Then you lose a level and roll, and lose 4 HP, so you're at 14. You regain a level and roll 10, so you're up to 24. You do the hokey pokey with a wight and lose 1 HP, then regain the level and roll another 10 and Mister Cavern calls you a cheater, because now at level 3 you have 33 hit points. Out of 30.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:10 pm

More Mearls! http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx ... l/20121022

We will be seeing the latest crap-pile in a few days.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:41 pm

My one positive memory from rolled HP was with a wizard I was running in 2E using Skills & Powers and Spells & Magic, which both used Character points for customizing the characters. I had a mage with d8 HD. You'd gain several CP each level, which were normally used for improving Non-weapon Proficiencies, but you could blow 2 CP to re-roll a bad HD roll (I don't remember if you kept the better of the two or accepted the new one). Being a caster, I didn't really need the NWPs, so I tended to spend a quarter to half my CP on HD re-rolls.

Half-way through the campaign, the fighter's player was incredulous when he found out I had more HP than him. I explained it, and he had this look on his face like he'd been cheated (presumably because he didn't know he could pay for a re-roll).[/tangent}

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:59 pm

CapnTthePirateG wrote:More Mearls! http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx ... l/20121022

We will be seeing the latest crap-pile in a few days.

Hopefully it will have some content beyond the terrible magic item doc.

Mike Mearls is the senior manager for the D&D research and design team. He has worked on the Ravenloft board game along with a number of supplement for the D&D RPG.

So, yeah. This is what caught my eye in his blurb: how he is pimping himself these days. Apparently a one-off boardgame is the most important thing he has worked on lately... and much more significant than the entire body of 4e materials.

Also, grammar is apparently unimportant

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:20 am

Updated Playtest.

Up to 10th level now. I still have no idea what they did to decided xp amounts for levels. Also Backgrounds and Specialties are still listed as 'optional' though there is no possible way they are optional unless you wish to play a mechanically non-working character.

Rogues and fighters are basically the exact same class, with the big difference being if you want plate vs skill points. They both use the same expertise dice mechanics, and share most of the maneuvers.

Classes, especially non-casters are a whole ton of boring. A fighter makes 1 choice and then is set on their path.

Toughness is 1hp/level so it looks like it's still pretty much a trap option, it just slightly better camouflaged. It goes nicely with Durable which is also really, really bad as it can not do ANYTHING for the entire game, great use of a feat there. And Use Rope is back since Heraldry apparently wasn't trapy enough on it's own. So, 27 total skills thus far.

Spells generally suck a lot now, or are still crazy powerful depending on your DM a la charm person and illusions. Evocations weren't good, but they really, really suck now. 4d6 for a cone of cold with a save for half?

Reviving the dead is apparently two DC 15 wisdom checks with a feat.

So, they're doing a good job of making it worse as they go.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:27 am

New playtest packet!

As I don't have much time I will only be looking at wizard-related stuff

-Necromancers are gone. I am sad.
-Color spray is going on the small list of spells that inflict statuses with no max hp check. It does, however, return the 4e duration of "until the end of your next turn.
-Darkness creates real darkness
-Spell damage went way down. I haven't checked monster hp, but cone of cold deals 4d6
-Dominate person is Jesus. It only lasts for an hour, but it is still Jesus.
-Oh, no, wait, Flame Strike does 8d6, so Cone of Cold just sucks. As usual.
-Fly is back at third level, but apparently requires concentration. Not sure what kind of action that takes.
-Oh, hey, they DID get rid of the max hit points cap. Time to roll up my enchanter, except that same concentration clause applies for holds...and they save every round
-Illusions are still bawss, and can attack dudes
-They brought back "dumpster dive through the MM" polymorph, and it has an HP check if cast offensively.
-Wizard spell dcs are higher than clerics

I need to eat dinner. More later.

Niles · Post by **Niles** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:34 am

Anyone have a link to where I can download the packet w/o going to wotc's site? I want to point and laugh but not enough to deal with the hassle of logging in there.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:11 pm

As it turns out, Dominate is crap because they get a new save if they take damage. Woo.

I don't have a link, but it's not that big of a hassle.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:29 pm

Concentration... I can't find either. Clerics are immune to losing concentration from damage, so... yeah.

Clerics also have spells with a 'word of power' tag (all 'cure x wounds'). You can take another action after tossing one of these off, as long as it doesn't involve casting a spell, activating a magic item or speaking.

The trickster cleric, as expected is a ball of win. Extra skill, finesse weapons, turn invisible for a until start of next turn every 10 minutes, minor illusion for free forever, domain spells: snactuary, silence, fly, dimension door, telekinesis.

Telekinesis is ridiculously good in its own right. magic attack vs con check. If you win, you can move them 30', after that you make that 'contest' every round, unless you have them unsupported in the air....which... you will. Large or huge critters can make a check regardless (though you are limited to critters no more than 2 sizes larger than you, so halfling casters are limited in magic fights, for no reason).
But you can essentially grab a melee opponent and spend the rest of the combat just keeping them useless.

It is kind of crap against large+ critters, since if you fail against them, the spell ends. Otherwise its concentration up to 10 minutes, regardless of what you do.

You can also grab objects, of course, up to 300lbs (which... I should point out is fucking stupid, since L and H critters pretty much exceed that, by a shitload). No rules for hurling crap at people, but considering you can explicit tear off/away anything 'held, worn or tended' with a magic vs strength contest, there are a stupid number of uses for this spell. Like ripping off every combatants armor, in turn, once per round.

Big change: rogues now work like fighters (expertise die and all that) but with a different selection of abilities. and a lower hit die, and lower attack, worse proficiencies. (but proficiency in 'thieves tools' for role protection bullshit)
But... other than that, they are pretty much the same class.
Sneak attack is now a 'manuever'. One that fighters, presumably, can't take.
There are 17 fighter manuevers and 14 rogue manuevers, with 9 in common. Sneak attack is basically ass until higher level, since the damage is just the 'expertise' dice you spend. So d4 at level 1, a decent 2d6 at level 4, and up to 3d10 at level 10 (which depending on how hit points scale, may not be much). Notably, the fighter 'Deadly Strike manuever does the same thing (add expertise dice to damage), but doesn't have the pile of restrictions that sneak attack has. Suck it, rogue.

Also both have composed attack, which is a big deal: the dice offset disadvantage by adding to the lower d20 roll (with a cap of the higher roll). Also the defensive manuevers are still pretty good, and there are more: lightning reflexes, iron will and great fortitude are now manuevers, and add to relevant saves. Though fighters can't take will and rogues can't take fortitude..

Oh, also fighters get a second attack at level 6. Yep.

Wizards: I still don't even care. Boring shit.
They've got 3 traditions listed:

Academic: all 0 level spells prepared are 'at will', +1 spell slot of highest level

Battle: burning hands, mage armor and shocking grasp are at will, you can cast thunderwave every 10 minutes, and you can cut people out of your AoE spells

Illusion: mage hand, minor illusion, shocking grasp are at will
color spray every 10 minutes, +2 to illusion DCs (which makes from some really damn high DCs, since wizards already get buffs to DC), and you can choose 2 tricks when doing minor illusions.

Illusionist isn't bad, academic actually scales with level, and battle... doesn't matter. But wizards pretty much just get bigger numbers and higher level spells as they level, which I suppose makes sense, but the class entry looks really damn dull.

And just for Lago, starting hit points aren't random. They're max.
Still rolled (or rounded average) after that, however.