Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Voss »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1188895676[/unixtime]

You're killing goblins and taking their stuff... because goblins are trying to kill you and take your stuff. When they beat you to the punch, that's an act of evil, but when YOU do it it's an act for good.

Before we get any further I need you to answer: why is that?


Because... thats the basic definition of Good in D&D. Defeating Evil.

You're trying to reconcile Good and Evil in D&D with a *very* specific real-world conception of Good and Evil. The problem is, they have almost nothing in common

Can you explain to me how it's possible to cause harm to society by putting the ideal that as many people as possible should have the best possible life to the best of society's ability will HURT people?


And you're kidding, right? The logical fallacy fun of a 'for the greater good' has been beaten to death with several dead horses. Look at your damn wording. If 99% of the population gets the 'best possible life' (whatever the hell random criteria that is), and 1% gets tossed in the soul collectors to suffer unspeakable torment for eternity, that fvcking fits your definition.

But then, its hard to take you seriously when you start talking about a campaign to change the very order of the universe in a way that actively harms the gods in the campaign setting. Particularly at any point when the characters aren't gods themselves. That leads to the gods themselves manifesting, writing you out of existence, and informing everyone you've ever talked to 'Not to do it again'. And everybody chants, in unison, 'Yes, Lord'.

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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Lago_AM3P »

And you're kidding, right? The logical fallacy fun of a 'for the greater good' has been beaten to death with several dead horses. Look at your damn wording. If 99% of the population gets the 'best possible life' (whatever the hell random criteria that is), and 1% gets tossed in the soul collectors to suffer unspeakable torment for eternity, that fvcking fits your definition.


Okay, let me break this bullshit down for you slowly.

In D&D, if we could save these 99 percent of people that would be so outrageously ballin' that I would cream myself.

But seriously, there's already an economy that damns way higher than the one percent in your example and it doesn't even produce a decent standard of living for one percent of people who live in it. I don't have to go into too much detail, you're already familiar with it.

If these were seriously my only two options then fuck yeah, I'd pick the 99 percent/1 percent option. Hell, even if I was assured to be in the one percent of people who would eternally suffer, I'd pick it over the D&D economy out of spite for liches and Hextor, if nothing else. And for the sake of everyone else on the planet.



...


Of course, your challenge to this state isn't the first objection raised. The 99/1 percent is only a problem if you accept two premises.

1) This is not the optimal result. What is the optimal result is debatable. You might believe we can get a higher return than that without lowering quality of life. You might prize the number of people who live over anything else, so that 100 percent of people living in abject misery is preferrably 99 percent of people living like kings and 1 percent living in abject misery (or worse) or that 4 billion people living in Calcutta is better than 2 million people living in Hollywood. Whatever, I'm not going to question your standard here. What you're trying to convince me is that what's going on in this scenario isn't the best result for whatever reason.

2) Look at this first. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-exploit.htm You don't have to agree with the conclusion (the website owner is a socialist), just understand the scenario he's giving you.

What's my point? Point 1) is only immoral if you recognize it but can't do anything about it. Remember that crappy movie Pearl Harbor? The nurses only had limited resources to treat patients. A lot of people died in terror and agony. Some of these people could've been saved--if it didn't risk the lives of others.

The nurses were only acting immorally if for some reason they were able to actually save everyone but chose not to out of convenience. Seriously, even today our high standard of living requires impressing hellish conditions on other people and the ratio of high life/poverty is nowhere even fucking close to 99/1 percent.

In conclusion, I completely fail to see your point with this. Not only have you failed to prove that 99/1 is always wrong but you've also completely failed to prove how the current working is better.


But then, its hard to take you seriously when you start talking about a campaign to change the very order of the universe in a way that actively harms the gods in the campaign setting.


And yet for some reason we still have pseudonatural creatures, atropals, and shadows who literally do nothing for the campaign setting but tear it apart. There's no reason why anyone would want these things around, least of all gods, but they're still there. Imagine that!
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Because... thats the basic definition of Good in D&D. Defeating Evil.

You're trying to reconcile Good and Evil in D&D with a *very* specific real-world conception of Good and Evil. The problem is, they have almost nothing in common


I don't even know where to begin...

Okay, so two frost giants covet each others possessions. One overpowers the other and steals all their stuff.

Was this a Good or Evil act? If you say that it's Evil, then why is it okay for 'heroes' to do it? The Frost Giant is reducing the number of 'Evil' creatures in the world...

If you say that this act is Good, then why isn't it Good for Frost Giants to kill 'heroes' and take their stuff? You've got a sticky question on your hands. Specifically:

WHAT makes the characters on the side of 'Good'? In this entire thread, Voss, you haven't explained what Good means to you. You've rejected both Kantian and utilitarian definitions of Good AFAIK so the only justification I can see is Red vs. Blue. And I've already exhaustively gone into detail why this is extremely unsatisfying to a large number of people and extremely childish.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by RandomCasualty »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1188898725[/unixtime]]
A) A person's diplomacy check is completely divorced from their combat prowess. A 40th level bard will not be able to take one on. A 20th level bard can probably roll a DC high enough to overcome the challenge. The 20th level bard gets awesomeness while the 40th experiences a game over. How is that fair?

Well it's not just this... It's the fact that the target's diplomacy DC is completely divorced from well, anything. Diplomatizing an enraged farmer is the same as diplomatizing a great wyrm. And that just basically laughs in the face of a level system. It also means that once you cross the diplomacy threshold, the game isn't even playable anymore, because any encounter with intelligent foes is instantly over whenever you want it to be. You wave the magic wand and suddenly they become your friends.

The main problem I have is that once you get your diplomacy high enough, there is no mid to high level problem that can't be solved with diplomacy. Golems or other mindless crap just aren't very meaningful encounters for high level characters. And all the truly challenging stuff is already gone.

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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by CalibronXXX »

It really doesn't even need to be said that diplomacy is utterly unplayable as it stands, even the rubes on the WOTC boards know that.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Voss »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1188928180[/unixtime]]
WHAT makes the characters on the side of 'Good'? In this entire thread, Voss, you haven't explained what Good means to you. You've rejected both Kantian and utilitarian definitions of Good AFAIK so the only justification I can see is Red vs. Blue. And I've already exhaustively gone into detail why this is extremely unsatisfying to a large number of people and extremely childish.


It is both unsatisfying and childish... but thats the paradigm. Good doesn't mean *anything* to me, because I can recognize that Good vs. Evil is purely a cultural point of view and nothing else. It is, as you put it, Red vs. Blue- putting an arbitrary label on people Talking about Good vs. Evil at all means you're restricting yourself to a fundamentally limited world view, where your (and your societiy's) opinion is the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS.

The handwaving diplomacy bullshit to change the world doesn't alter that a jot.

Okay, so two frost giants covet each others possessions. One overpowers the other and steals all their stuff.

Was this a Good or Evil act? If you say that it's Evil, then why is it okay for 'heroes' to do it? The Frost Giant is reducing the number of 'Evil' creatures in the world...

Its Evil when the frost giant does it and Good when the heroes do it. Assuming, of course, that the giant is doing it for his own gain, and the heroes are doing it to defeat evil/save a town or blah. Yes, its complete bullshit. But in D&D morality, motives are what matter.

If you say that this act is Good, then why isn't it Good for Frost Giants to kill 'heroes' and take their stuff? You've got a sticky question on your hands.

It is 'good', but not Good, for the frost giants, because they get rewarded for being Evil. (unless they are supposed to be Lawful as well, but thats a whole other bag of shit). So, in terms of the crappy D&D alignment system it isn't a sticky question at all.

As to the other thing...
In conclusion, I completely fail to see your point with this. Not only have you failed to prove that 99/1 is always wrong but you've also completely failed to prove how the current working is better

What the crap is this? That wasn't what I was even trying to do, so failing at it isn't an issue. You said this-
Can you explain to me how it's possible to cause harm to society by putting the ideal that as many people as possible should have the best possible life to the best of society's ability will HURT people?

So I provided you an extreme example of how you can HURT people while providing the 'best possible life'.

And yet for some reason we still have pseudonatural creatures, atropals, and shadows who literally do nothing for the campaign setting but tear it apart. There's no reason why anyone would want these things around, least of all gods, but they're still there. Imagine that!


Except for the fact that the help promote the good vs. evil paradigm, which helps people turn to various gods for 'aid'. Its like a greedy doctor who wants just wants money. Treat the symptoms all you want, but if you want to keep 'customers' you never want to cure the disease.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Bigode »

Lago wrote:One of the selling points about D&D is that you get to roleplay a hero. But it's really, really goddamn hard to do it when the world is the way it is. Heroes NEED to be able to convince Ogre hordes as a standard action the error of their ways and they also need some kind of bonus for taking this kind of time to do so.
(emphasis mine)

Maybe you meant "standard procedure" here and people naturally read it as "combat action" - was that it? In that case, the remaining text's redundant, because we mostly agree - especially on the level 15 example, which seems about right for me; but that (the bolded part) is why people started thinking D&D diplomancy (which's ridiculous).

Voss wrote:But then, its hard to take you seriously when you start talking about a campaign to change the very order of the universe in a way that actively harms the gods in the campaign setting. Particularly at any point when the characters aren't gods themselves. That leads to the gods themselves manifesting, writing you out of existence, and informing everyone you've ever talked to 'Not to do it again'. And everybody chants, in unison, 'Yes, Lord'.
Gods aren't omniscient (however much D&D might have in common with the Bible, that's still pretty Greek), and hear when people speak about their stuff; they can, of course, divine stuff pretty well. Enter mindblank, genesis, and telepathy - never speak again! If the idea is permanently changing a D&D setting, one has to pull all stops, right?
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Lago, Voss is clearly of the opinion that all cultures are equally valid. He appears to want to import that morality into the game. Since you are trying to port a different and incompatible morality you may as well just not respond to each other. You won't convince each other because you're slamming into each other's real world beliefs.

I think you've got a good example of how high those diplomacy DCs need to be though.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Bigode »

Voss wrote:It probably is doable they way your suggesting, though, particularly if you can raise some interesting questions with it: Is a permanent dominate ethical in these circumstances? Is forcing a beholder to be Good a Good act? You aren't killing it, but you are enslaving it, which is questionable. And the moral question I always find particularly fun- is holding to your morals when society as a whole may suffer for it, really a Good act?
Actually, they seem to be talking past each other, since Voss agreed that something quite similar could be interesting.

But that's to you, Voss: of course, as someone with a history background, are expected to see all cultures as equal, but I do think you're ignoring one thing - that, when almost all people say they wanna play good characters, they wanna play characters that are good according to modern Western morality (since that's what they're from in most cases, even in the case of many Asians), and that opportunity shouldn't be denied; so, of course I see your point in how the Iron Age worked and so on, but, to some people, things just will play better with anachronistic morality. Besides, of course, they could cause the anachronism to happen with the tricks we discussed, right? :)
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brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!
LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Voss »

Draco_Argentum at [unixtime wrote:1188996890[/unixtime]]Lago, Voss is clearly of the opinion that all cultures are equally valid. He appears to want to import that morality into the game.


I don't actually, or rather, not exactly. I'd rather see morality that actually fit the setting. Ans since survival is the big issue in D&D, high and noble sounding philosophies tend to get kicked to curb really quickly.

I'm also not as open minded as that statement makes me sound. Certain things hit my buttons every time. Rape and missionaries (as rapists on a cultural scale) make me twitch every time, no matter how culturally appropriate it may be.

@Bigode. Yeah, probably. My biggest problem is that modern western values, if actually adhered to, are really damn *boring*. You can't actually do anything that I consider to be part of the heroic idiom.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Bigode »

Voss: you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but, well, many people would base heroism on the set of virtues they supposedly (and, in the end, I can't stress this enough) hold, so, let them be anachronistic and don't play with them, lest you be bored - but it sure should be possible.

That said, I don't view aversion to missionaries as close-mindedness; in fact, it should be the opposite, as missionaries are the very definition of mind closing. Might I ask, though, what's your "heroic idiom"?
Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.
Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)
brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!
LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Koumei »

There's nothing wrong with close-mindedness. Remember, an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded. Love the Immortal God-Emperor of Humanity. He is your friend.

Back on topic:

It's a good idea to let it be an option for those who can think of a way to make it exciting for them, but the main problem is that the only people who could make it an option are the people who can see it as exciting. So it's up to them to decide on what rules work and what changes to societies need to be implemented. Because for those who just want to stab people in the face, it just won't work.

I recall a Planescape game where our group went to the Dark Sun setting. The samurai tried to explain his concepts of honour, and of seppuku to everyone, in a setting that is even more survivalist and every-man-for-himself. They thought he was nuts, but did want a demonstration of seppuku.

They also couldn't really understand the whole "gods" thing, and the best I managed was to convince them that Loviatar is really hot (I had a class feature that made me look identical to her, and ended up settling on "Yes. We're twins.") and can create water.

I can see the introduction of modern concepts to D&D going exactly the same way.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1189110172[/unixtime]]I'm also not as open minded as that statement makes me sound.


Hmm, I was expecting that could be taken as an insult.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by tzor »

I'm deliberately trying to avoid discussions of "missionaries" here because I think they are victims of being all judged by the worst apple in the bunch - just like lawyers are judged.

Having said that I'm not sure where the discussion is at the moment. Generally speaking, I tend to find that the notion of good and evil in D&D has to be divorced from any notions of right and wrong. Many "values" tend to be more right and wrong notions than a question of D&D style good or evil.

Example: Polygamy is a value which is in and of itself neither good nor evil according to D&D. One culture might think it is a right, another is a wrong. Are they both correct? I don't know, but it's not a question for good or evil so it is somewhat moot.

So what is the heroic idiom? To me it is getting in harms way for some cause, preferably noble. Helping others also tends to make it a "good" cause since the simple definition of good is placing others above self and puting ones self in harms way is cearly doing that. But some heros do it because of their notions of honor (law as discipline) and some for other reasons.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Cielingcat »

Koumei at [unixtime wrote:1189148439[/unixtime]]There's nothing wrong with close-mindedness. Remember, an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded. Love the Immortal God-Emperor of Humanity. He is your friend.

I love this guy.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Koumei »

Cielingcat at [unixtime wrote:1189176147[/unixtime]]
I love this guy.


Are you speaking of our friend, the Emperor, being the object of your undying love? If so, that is entirely appropriate, and all should feel the same way.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Jacob_Orlove »

Koumei at [unixtime wrote:1189148439[/unixtime]]
I can see the introduction of modern concepts to D&D going exactly the same way.

You can't even use the "well, it's magic!" explanation, because they can just point to actual magic. And then set you on fire with it.

Going on a quest to slay the "invisible hand" that the neighboring kingdom is using to attack your merchants would be awesome, though.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Fwib »

[edit] meh. probably a crazy idea.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Voss »

Koumei at [unixtime wrote:1189148439[/unixtime]]
It's a good idea to let it be an option for those who can think of a way to make it exciting for them, but the main problem is that the only people who could make it an option are the people who can see it as exciting. So it's up to them to decide on what rules work and what changes to societies need to be implemented. Because for those who just want to stab people in the face, it just won't work.


Thats the other thing about the concept that bothers me. If the players don't know they're getting Martyrs and Missionaries, and don't all want it, people are going to have a really bad (unenjoyable) time.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Koumei »

Yeah, that's true. I'd feel rather out of place seeing as, while I don't want a game to be just one long series of fights, I do like the concept of "Here is the problem. It exists because of these bad guys. You have swords. I think you know what to do."
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I think the easiest way to have the characters at least feel 'Good' is to change the context. In the raiding culture that Frank posits, where the next-door tribe of Goblins kills some of your peasants and takes their stuff, so you go and kill some of the Goblins and take their stuff... it's hard to feel like anything more than a racially-motivated thief and murderer, because you can kind of empathize with the Goblin who has the same job you do. But if you step up the opposition's innate hostility to all that is right and wholesome, you start to feel a lot better by simple comparison.

The aforementioned God-Emperor of Mankind presides over an Empire which is basically a million worlds of Very Questionable Activity. Yet that Imperium can shine like a beacon of hope, because it's surrounded, outnumbered, and often outclassed by things that are
[counturl=101]even worse.[/counturl]


So to shred any issues with player morality, all you have to do is set your game in the world of Myth: The Fallen Lords, where you and the Goblins have made common cause, because the alternative is undead Hitler, his sidekicks undead Erzbet Bathory and undead Pol Pot, and their Legions of the Damned.

edit: for grammar.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1189227858[/unixtime]]Thats the other thing about the concept that bothers me. If the players don't know they're getting Martyrs and Missionaries, and don't all want it, people are going to have a really bad (unenjoyable) time.


I can say likewise about virtually any part of the game. Fighters being ass or the characters being mercenary arseholes as a random and a direct counterpoint respectively.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by technomancer »

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1188936486[/unixtime]]
Was this a Good or Evil act? If you say that it's Evil, then why is it okay for 'heroes' to do it? The Frost Giant is reducing the number of 'Evil' creatures in the world...

Its Evil when the frost giant does it and Good when the heroes do it. Assuming, of course, that the giant is doing it for his own gain, and the heroes are doing it to defeat evil/save a town or blah. Yes, its complete bullshit. But in D&D morality, motives are what matter.


If motives are what matters, then how does anything that is mindless have an alignment other than neutral? They, by definition, have no motives. Do you also try to convict a rollercoaster of murder if it accidentally kills someone (moderate strawman, I know, but still, a valid point)? Heck, the only thing a lich has to do is kill themselves so they can live forever, but they have to be evil despite the fact that the only thing they've done wrong is not die! Does that make any cleric who casts Raise Dead evil? How about the person being raised?

In D&D, Good and Evil are quantafiable forces that are usually divorced from motive.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Koumei »

Doesn't it say an evil ritual is required to become a lich? Sure, you could claim "That's only flavour text!" but Alignment is pretty much glued to flavour text most of the time. So if you want the lichification process to not involve "an evil rtitual", then you probably no longer have to be Evil.

And I think it's important to warn people of stuff that *isn't* the norm. So "Time runs normally in all planes - consider this if you intended on being a Wizard or Cleric who specially prepares their spells for each encounter", "You're not just going out there and stabbing people in the face and taking their stuff", "Fighters don't suck" etc.
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Re: Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

Post by Crissa »

Most mindless things either have no alignment, or the alignment of what created them.

See my note about 'doing a damage type reserved by Team Evil.'

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