4E information

[Catharz]

Voss, that's great! If that article is actually accurate, there is hope yet for 4e!

[angelfromanotherpin]

Empires in the planes (isn't that on the planes) of fire isn't really all that fine. You can build great city states in (or on) the plane of fire. Together they can form an empire I suppose but really they are just isolated points of light in an othewise hot place.

Dude, isolated points of population surrounded by comparatively vast uninhabited wilderness is all any civilization, even modern ones, has ever been.

Also with Mongolia as would be the case with a air based empire of any other type of roaming force it's not that they have a "large" empire but a movable one and wherever they are, there is their empire.

Okay, here's where your position is so laughable that I am tempted to just make fun of you. Read a book! The Mongol Empire was what we'd recognize as a fully-realized civilization, with long-term allegiances, a written code of law, stable trade routes, and a postal system.

[Voss]

Exactly. They came *out* of the desert. And conquered non-desert lands. And yes, there were deserts within the borders of the lands they claimed. But that wasn't, largely, where they hung out.

As for Egypt, that damn big river and the arable land around it is their infrastructure and population base. Not the desert, that was essentially empty wasteland.

Its very different from

Dragonborn to deserts (at least their great empire were in desert)

in which the actual Empire is/was in the desert. Its a lot different to wandering into China with a horde at your back and setting up shop.

But, whatever. Fanwank WotC's poor flavor decisions all you want.

[Leress]

I will have wait until the book comes out before I can say it is complete shit or not.

[angelfromanotherpin]

As for Egypt, that damn big river and the arable land around it is their infrastructure and population base. Not the desert, that was essentially empty wasteland.

I'm going to try again.

That damn big river and the arable land exist in a desert, by the definition of a desert. They are not surrounded on either side by desert. The entire area actually is desert. When you are sailing on the Nile, you are in a desert. When you look at the muddy magnificence of the Nile delta, you are looking at a desert.

Desert doesn't mean sandy or maybe rocky wasteland. It means less than 250 mm of average rainfall per year, and that is all that it means. When that desert contains abundant grassland (as it did and still does in Mongolia) or a rich river valley (as it did and still does in Egypt) it is historical fact that Empires arise in such places.

So when they say that the great empire of the Dragonborn was in a desert, it is in fact completely plausible and your objections are based in ignorance. It's not fanwankery, you're just wrong. Science says so. History says so.

[Captain_Bleach]

1196284297[/unixtime]]
But, whatever. Fanwank WotC's poor flavor decisions all you want.

But fanwanking is a time-honored traditions amongst dissatisfied consumers! You dare challenge the traditions of our gamer forefathers?!

[Catharz]

1196286760[/unixtime]]
Desert doesn't mean sandy or maybe rocky wasteland. It means less than 250 mm of average rainfall per year, and that is all that it means.

Whether that is true or not depends on whether you're talking about a scientific desert or a 'desert', the linguistic/cultural construct which may or may not refer to anything 'real', and may or may not be defined by individual usage and context.

[Voss]

1196286760[/unixtime]] Science says so. History says so.

Both will say whatever you want if you pony up enough cash.

But we are really talking past each other at this point. I'm saying the desert doesn't matter if you've got the bloody great river. You're saying it still fits the technical definition of 'desert'.

But when they say that the great empire of the Dragonborn was in a desert, I'm not going to assume they know they need a river (or other water source) there to make it viable. For all I know they're having chariot races across dunetops with frikkin' velociraptors, because it sounds 'kewl'. They've pulled dumber shit out of their collective asses of late.

[Captain_Bleach]

But is coming up with dumb shit that makes no sense all that WotC is good for?

[Voss]

No, but there *is* a lot of shit on the gems. Sometimes you just have to turn the hose on them.

If there is nothing worth while, you have to do what should be done with Monte's WoD. Rip him a new one, set it on fire, and never bother with it again.

[Captain_Bleach]

1196298111[/unixtime]]No, but there *is* a lot of shit on the gems. Sometimes you just have to turn the hose on them.

If there is nothing worth while, you have to do what should be done with Monte's WoD. Rip him a new one, set it on fire, and never bother with it again.

What would you consider genuine gems? I am just tired of pouring through 30+ splat books for good material that isn't hopelessly muddled/broken.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1196297348[/unixtime]] For all I know they're having chariot races across dunetops with frikkin' velociraptors, because it sounds 'kewl'.

Dude, that's awesome.

[Voss]

1196298222[/unixtime]]

1196298111[/unixtime]]No, but there *is* a lot of shit on the gems. Sometimes you just have to turn the hose on them.

If there is nothing worth while, you have to do what should be done with Monte's WoD. Rip him a new one, set it on fire, and never bother with it again.

What would you consider genuine gems? I am just tired of pouring through 30+ splat books for good material that isn't hopelessly muddled/broken.

The basic concept of a fantasy role-playing game was a good one. Its kept my attention for 22 years. These days... thats harder. Mostly I like ideas more than mechanics at this point, particularly with 3rd (though I couldn't go back to 1st or 2nd, or basic), since the mechanical aspects fluctuate wildly in quality between books and within books.

Examples- I really like the flavor of sorcerers and warlocks, both appeal to fantasy genres I enjoy. Mechanically, people should have been fired.

Others-
power attack is a decent feat. It scales, it interacts well with multiplers, (crits, charge bonuses, what have you). Its useful (and in fact necessary for a fighter type, as hit points go skyward) as you go up in level.
Dodge is... a piece of festering crap, ridden with filth and disease. Worse, it not only sucks, its a prerequisite for a bunch of things that could actually be useful, except they require you to penalize yourself by taking Dodge.

The splat books are a bad place to look for good things. Yes, there are some, but a statement along the lines of 'Shock Trooper is the only good thing in the entire Complete Warrior book', isn't that much of an exaggeration.

I largely like the Binder, from Tome of Magic. Its has some flaws, but I like the general power level, the flexibility and the lack of downtime. It could use a slightly flavor boost, as the fact that you're binding powerful spirits from beyond is... fairly meaningless. They essentially give you a facial tic.

The rest of that book sucks, however. Shadow guy gets all of 2 level appropriate powers per day for most of his career, and whoever wrote the Truenamer doesn't have the vaguest idea of how the math underlying his subsystem actually works.

Overall, I'd like to take the full casters down a notch or two, but that is almost more a problem of the huge list of spells that propagate through more books. I'd like that to change in 4E. I think they should write up a class in a single book and then stop. So when the PH1 is published, the wizard is done. Complete. No power creep from badly thought out spells and feats stacked on through splatbooks.
PH2 can introduce the druid and the illusionist, and their entire suite of class abilities, and then they are done, complete.
PH3 can do the psion or whatever the hell else I don't care about, but it shouldn't be splatbooks with 50 more abilities for class X, and class Y gets... nothing or something token.

One of the few good things from back in first edition was the spellcasters had fairly short spell lists. Unearthed Arcana added some spells, but the magic user seriously topped out at 40 1st level spells and 16 9th level spells. Clerics worked as a secondary melee guy because their spells were sharply limited, fairly focused, and weren't that many (12-20 per level, and clerics only had 7 levels of spells).

A bit of digression, what? Anyway, finding good things in the current set of books really is like digging for gold. Most of the time you're just thinking crap, crap, crap.

[Voss]

New 4E actual crunch. Paladins. And smiting. and a lame story I'm leaving out.
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dr ... ]Safeguard Smite
Paladin 1
Encounter • Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: 2x[W] + Cha.
Hit or Miss: An ally within 5 squares gains a bonus to AC equal to your Wisdom modifier until the end of your next turn.

This basic, entry-level smite has all the things a growing paladin needs to fulfill its role and lay down some hurt. A Charisma attack against the target's Armor Class, safeguard smite deals double her base weapon's damage plus her Charisma modifier in damage (paladins are a force of personality, after all), and grants a quick boost to an ally in trouble (including, in a pinch, the paladin herself). And there you have it. Your first smite -- simple, serviceable, and fun.

As your paladin progresses as a defender of the faith, smites, like all of your abilities, grow in power and utility. But unlike its defender cousin, the fighter, a paladin is more than just the guy who kicks butt and makes sure enemies focus (or want to focus) on him. Paladins have always been able to heal in some way and the 4th Edition variety is no different. Though this splash of leader flavor into the paladin's defender role comes in many forms, one of the more active and interesting ways that your paladin can come to the aid of a companion while fighting is our second example of a smite:

Renewing Smite
Paladin 13
Encounter • Healing, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: 2x[W] + Cha damage and ally within 5 heals 10 + your Wisdom modifier damage.

You'll no doubt see the pattern between these two smites. They mix a fair portion of damage (scaled up by level, but not necessarily the amount of dice) while giving an ally a much needed boost of hit points at the most opportune moments. Selfish paladins (typically those who serve more self-centered gods or just the occasional egoist who venerates Pelor) can even heal themselves with the strike, as you're considered your own ally unless the effect of a power states otherwise.

Let's move on to smites that inhabit the levels over 20. Binding smite is another flavor of defender smite -- and as its high level demands, does the defender job more effectively, and thus more powerfully than the simple safeguard smite does.

Binding Smite
Paladin 27
Encounter • Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 2x[W] + Wis damage and target cannot gain line of effect to anyone but you until the end of your next turn.

In binding smite you can see an example of how the effect of a smite goes up with level, while the numbers in their base form seem similar when not taking into account the accuracy and damage boosts that merely gaining levels (and having better weapons) affords. It just gets … well, better. Heck, it's epic, after all, so it has to be good, and you don't have to have 4th Edition books in front of you to realize line of effect denial is good. When you're fighting balor, ancient blue dragons, and sorrowsworn, it had better be good -- those critters don't fool around![/quote]

It takes him the whole damn article to mention that [W] = base weapon damage, and by that he actually means weapon damage with all your bonuses added in. Sigh.
Saga-like damage bonus from level too, apparently.

I assume, that charisma attack is BAB + charisma (rather than strength), rather just rolling straight charisma, because that wouldn't scale and would suck. But, you know, its a possibility.

And for fucks sake. I'm glad he mentions specifically that you are an ally of yourself, but thats horribly incorrect usage of the word. Just make it one creature, and assume that players aren't stupid enough to buff enemies, dammit.

Encounter probably means 1/encounter. And yeah. Paladins- you're melee guys.

So, the smites themselves.
First one, Safeguard.
This is one good, especially for a first level power.
Double damage + cha, Plus you give a (small) AC bonus regardless if you hit or miss? Nice. I see no reason not to open with this in every single encounter. Take the enemies down faster and get a defense bonus at the same time. It actually reads like a no brainer, especially when compared to...

Renewing Smite. OK, yes, you still do double damage, and that does include bonus, so its a bit better than it was at 1st level. But thats scaling too [which is awesome. Your first level ability is still relevant, though that AC bonus probably won't look as good] and you're 13th level now. The damage isn't all that. And the healing? That sucks. 10 + WIS isn't going to be 10% of your hit points at 13th level. Bite me. At least you aren't spending a separate action for the healing.

That leaves us with binding smite.
Um, OK. 27th fucking level. Damage is essentially the same. Except wisdom, rather than charisma. But enemies can only attack you? and you're going after Will rather AC, which is sometimes good, probably.
I hope you can take the hits.
Oddly enough this goes back to the Paladin thing that surfaced recently in the Threads thread. Its a way for the defensive character to force enemies to attack him. Neat. But, you know. 27th level seems... late.
Though in theory the enemy can't do anything to himself, either...

So, thoughts?

More MAD. Its looking more common. What with following on the heals of that wizard feat.
Strength could actually be a dump stat for paladins, as long as you can handle your gear. Probably want CON though.

They still seem to have problems with level-appropriateness. Even if the power level has been turned down a bit, that Renewing smite sucks for a 13th level ability. depending on how high you can push your wisdom and charisma, the first level ability looks to be the best one!

[Manxome]

If they're really 1/encounter, then merely having more of them is probably inherently a very good thing (up to a point), even if your additional ones are worse than your starting ones.

Whether that's any kind of excuse depends on how quickly you get them and how long battles take, of course.

Also remember that having a cleric around supposedly increases your self-healing capabilities, which may cause all self-healing to be better in practice than it initially looks.

[Voss]

Well, given a 'normal' situation of 5 PCs vs 5 monsters of equal level, combat should normally last X rounds (give or take a round, maybe two in extreme cases), if hps, bab, ac and damage are all scaling at roughly the same rate.

Presumably, you have a limit on the number of powers you can choose. Remember, there are also at will powers and per day powers. If you have X encounter powers, your at will powers are completely irrelevant- since they aren't restricted in any way, I assume they'll be weaker than encounter powers. Similarly, from whats been mentioned in playtests, offensive daily powers will be more powerful.

If you hit a point where you have X good encounter powers, you never have to use the weaker at will powers, and never have to expend your precious daily powers. That isn't a good design place to be.

Now maybe higher level encounters will last longer, but from things they've said, thats almost the opposite of their design goals. They've made statements about not wanting high level play to bog down, and be just as playable as current mid levels (6-10)... extending the 'sweet spot'.

[Crissa]

That does not look like something I would like in a game. Far too specific of an ability. You have to hit someone for someone else to get an AC bonus for a round? Half a round? That's their big encounter ability?

I don't even see that as affecting an encounter, let alone be something you want to hinge a class on.

Why does it always look like these guys are trying to make a collectable computer tactical combat game - and not a roleplaying game centered around D&D?

-Crissa

[Voss]

What? No, that isn't how it works. Its one per encounter ability, not _the_ big encounter ability. And you do double damage if you hit AND you grant someone the AC bonus (for a full round) if you hit or miss.

Its other than the specific effects, its just like smite in 3.x, except you know you can use it once per encounter rather than tracking per day uses. And you don't suck if what you're fighting isn't evil.


Of course they're making a tactical combat game. It is D&D, after all.

[Username17]

I can see the logic. People came back and noted that spells like doom really were not worth casting because the effect was too small to notice even if it worked. People also came back an reported that the part where you stand around attacking round after round until you roll high enough to damage something is extremely frustrating - sometimes multiple rounds of combat will go by with literally nothing happening at all.

So they decided to combine attack these problems: you make your attack come with a secondary effect. So even when you are in the part of the game where you miss and then your opponent misses andback and forth and so on and so forth - your character's action actually counts for something.

Great idea.
Shit execution though.

The problem with this setup is not that making an attack and also raising an ally's AC for a round is bad mechanically - I've been pushing for something like this for some time. The problem is that from a flavor standpoint it's retarded. And even then, having an attack where you spend your time pressing your opponent's attacking side so that it's harder for them to get a blow in is a classic. It's the thing where you make your attack and one of your compatriot's gets a little blue shield or something for six seconds. That's completely dumb.

The thing where you are encouraged to start encounters with squirrels and shit so that you can heal your friends between major encouters - that's ridiculous. The Renewing Smite is just an excuse to send the Paladin into the bathroom every few minutes to squash a bug. Argh.

---

So the kernel of a good idea is this: Your action shouldn't be meaningless even if you roll a 1. Combat buffs should be used in combat and not before hand. Performing minor actions like aidingan ally's defenses or causing a minor penalty to an opponent should not preclude actually accomplishing things in the battle.

The part where it sucks is: They have per encounter abilities which have an effect that carries over to the next encounter (Healing for example), which encourages players to create bogus encounters. Their flavor is really shitty and is the standard "yellow glowing lights" that CRPGs use when they can't think of something actually representative to show you when an ability gets used.

So while there is some decent brainstorming that went into this, the implementation is a joke. It's basically Mike Mearls being his usual self. A decent sale's pitch ("I've identified the parts of the game which specifically make fighters no fun to play!") and no follow-through ("Uh... how about we give them a force field that gives a +2 bonus to AC?"). One seriously wonders how long he can continue to leap from failure to failure before people notice that he has tunnel vision too severe to actually make a subsystem which integrates into a complete game system.

-Username17

[Voss]

I don't disagree exactly, but putting aside the other stuff, if Safeguard smite was actually:

Safeguard Smite
Paladin 1
Encounter • Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: 2x[W] + Cha.
Hit or Miss: Until the end of your next turn, you gain a bonus to AC equal to your Wisdom modifier against the smite's target, as your aggressive attack makes it difficult for him/it/her to counterattack.

Flavor-wise, that would be good?

And if encounters have to be actual, life-threatening combat situations, and you can't just attack squirrels and shit? It wouldn't make Renewing smite suck any less, but it stops a certain type bullshitery.
Which, frankly, if the game allows in the first place, you should just handwave all damage away if the party has a minute of downtime between fights.

[RandomCasualty]

1196327460[/unixtime]]
The thing where you are encouraged to start encounters with squirrels and shit so that you can heal your friends between major encouters - that's ridiculous. The Renewing Smite is just an excuse to send the Paladin into the bathroom every few minutes to squash a bug. Argh.

Personally, I always felt like HP should renew between encounters anyway. It already works that way in 3rd with wands of CLW. It's really hard to make a game where you have to heal HP between encounters as a form of resource depletion, because HP are easy to restore.

They need a second type of persistent wound that stays with people between encounters, but is simple. Like, "when you get bloodied, you become injured. For every injury you have you, gain a negative level." or something like that.

[Voss]

Could just use something like the fatigued/exhausted/unconscious progression. At some point you just have to stop or bust out the serious magic.

[Judging__Eagle]

All I'm saying is this:

WoTC sez:

"Dragonbebies-peoplez/Fake-lizardfolkz caem from Imperium of desurt."


Which leaves a lot in the air.

They don't mention the fertile valley that their empire is based, or the nomadic/conquering nature of these people or the fact that the Dragonborn did something stupid and made their previously lush lands into desert or got into a war that made their lands desert or pissed off someone that could ruin arable land and make it desert.

Since they're deciding to not even provide a clue as to how they got an empire in a desert (and say... not a kingdom, a kingdom I could see, maybe one big trade capital on a large oases with a bunch of smaller villages around springs/oases), we have to assume that they've fluxxed the flavour, again.

Seriously, giving them the benefit of the doubt is not exactly fair for ourselves as customers and players at this point.

We're seriously acting like abused housewives that actually believe the constant pleadings of "I swear I'll released a good subsystem", "I swear I won't release shit products" or "We have Mike Mearls, he made Iron Kingdoms, things can get better" that WoTC makes.

I say, let them be presumed guilty until proven innocent. It'll save us time in deliberating the merits or flaws inherent in the system if we look for the good and break it down to see if it still is okay.

[Voss]

Iron Heroes. Iron Kingdoms is done by Privateer Press, who are largely guilty of absolutely shitty editing and one of the most bizarre, convoluted and headache inducing magic item creation systems in print.

[Judging__Eagle]

Seriously, if I cared enough, I probably would have made sure that I associated the appropriately shitty author with the appropriately shitty product.