The Gaming Den

For my Alchemist class, I made their potions of 4th-level or higher into Wish Economy items even though the price per unit was smaller than that. It seems like that might be a fix for the infinite scrolls issue.

So why wasn't it reasonable to make characters 'attune' potions before use? You quaff a potion and *boom*, one if your item slots is filled until it wears off. Not a biggie with CLW, but it puts bull's strength right where it belongs at level 3.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:So why wasn't it reasonable to make characters 'attune' potions before use? You quaff a potion and *boom*, one if your item slots is filled until it wears off. Not a biggie with CLW, but it puts bull's strength right where it belongs at level 3.

This question comes up a lot. The short answer is that some spells provide a larger bonus for a shorter period. Other spells provide a better bonus in exchange for being more limited in target (personal instead of touch, for example). Neither of those limitations apply meaningfully if the only thing holding you back from chugging another potion is having to wait for the last one to wear off. Why drink a Bull's Strength at all when you can just chug Divine Favors more frequently? Or True Strike potions?

Balancing potions is not simple. Once players embrace the 3e methodology of grabbing "limited" use items for whatever they want to use and then burning through it like toilet paper, pretty much all opposition can be laughably steamrollered. You noticed how completely non-threatening arrow traps are once you get a wand of cure light? Now procede to watch the fifty encounter workday once people become willing to buy a wand of Solid fog and a wand of summon swarm (or any other area DOT) every day. You know how meaningless a 21,000 gp daily surcharge is when you have fifty treasure parcels?

-Username17

I think the most workable approach here is the standard 4e potion mechanic, or at least something similar (as long as we are not talking healing options)(please note I'm not knowledgeable on the subject and may well be talking about something that doesn't happen in 4e at all).

The 'burn a healing surge' thing is that you use up some resource that everybody has, (in theory) you care about and use on a daily basis - but the resource does something completely unrelated. The last one is important - scrolls using up spell slots is just spontaneous spell substitution that costs money.

3e+Wish Economy as is does not support consumables in a manner that can be easily turned into something playable, because it does not have such a resource (HP has too many things influencing it not to be easily broken). None of already existing resources works well for the purpose - not HP, not spells, not maneuvers, not item slots - and adding a new resource just adds a new resource.

At the point I don't see anything workable. Maybe a new set of negative status effects (so splatbooks don't have anything that fucks with them) that kick in with use. Or ones that trying to avoid them would miss the point entirely, like a disease immunity potion that sickens you after wearing off.

FrankTrollman wrote:

CatharzGodfoot wrote:So why wasn't it reasonable to make characters 'attune' potions before use? You quaff a potion and *boom*, one if your item slots is filled until it wears off. Not a biggie with CLW, but it puts bull's strength right where it belongs at level 3.

This question comes up a lot. The short answer is that some spells provide a larger bonus for a shorter period. Other spells provide a better bonus in exchange for being more limited in target (personal instead of touch, for example). Neither of those limitations apply meaningfully if the only thing holding you back from chugging another potion is having to wait for the last one to wear off. Why drink a Bull's Strength at all when you can just chug Divine Favors more frequently? Or True Strike potions?

Balancing potions is not simple. Once players embrace the 3e methodology of grabbing "limited" use items for whatever they want to use and then burning through it like toilet paper, pretty much all opposition can be laughably steamrollered. You noticed how completely non-threatening arrow traps are once you get a wand of cure light? Now procede to watch the fifty encounter workday once people become willing to buy a wand of Solid fog and a wand of summon swarm (or any other area DOT) every day. You know how meaningless a 21,000 gp daily surcharge is when you have fifty treasure parcels?

-Username17

A true strike potion isn't especially scary, considering that it has exactly the same cost as just casting the spell (minus the slot) and only lasts for a round. The 3rd level restriction on potions seems to interface nicely with the advent of the wish economy. That doesn't help with the other expendables, but limited volume liquids that you literally consume are more necessarily expendable than, say, wands.

Balancing potions is not simple. Once players embrace the 3e methodology of grabbing "limited" use items for whatever they want to use and then burning through it like toilet paper, pretty much all opposition can be laughably steamrollered. You noticed how completely non-threatening arrow traps are once you get a wand of cure light? Now procede to watch the fifty encounter workday once people become willing to buy a wand of Solid fog and a wand of summon swarm (or any other area DOT) every day. You know how meaningless a 21,000 gp daily surcharge is when you have fifty treasure parcels?

-Username17

Actually... that happens in many games, even computer games.

Games allow the players to buy all sorts of one-shot items; either from NPCs, or from other PCs, usually via an auction house type of system.

One of these types are 'healing' items; the other main type are 'buff' items.

Healing items let the character survive in the field for -long- periods of time without having to return. Games with healing items that are effective enough to level with usually do not have really big buffing items. Or, they get them much later and they're very minor.

Buff items are things that let you be more effective; Food that helps you regain 'Mana' faster; An 'elixer/phiter/etc.' that buffs something; an item that you used on your weapon to make it better for a set amount of time ("sharpening stones" for edged weapons, "weight stones" for blunt weapons, "mage oils" (for magic weapons)) etc. etc.

Even things like your class may charge you to level with your class.

Tangent:

Say, an archer unit of any kind; usually they have to buy arrows. Usually, those are lost once fired, and you need to buy them all the time to level with it in a reasonable manner.

The funny thing is that these 'ranged' classes are often some of the most effective in many games in terms of damage per second. EQ, RO and WoW all have 'good' damage expected from the ranged classes of the game, and the non-caster ranged units are considered pretty good overall.

Yet can be very uneffective if the missile weapons mini-game is really nerfed. Say, DDO.

Games that have -lots- of buffs... tend to be more about game complexity, and sometimes needless game complexity. Playing WoW requires players to use search engines, and online databases to determine what items are any good, or there next goal.

Players in D&D can look at a double page list of every possible item of one sort, or an other.

Every weapon enchancement can seriously fit on two pages in a list. "Diablo" style computer/video games don't really let a player have the ability to use only a few distinct items; and instead the players are always 'upgrading' to the newest item.

In any case; I think that potions should be curative only. It removes a lot of confusion; and it means that a character with a potion vial, can refill it with any drinkable fluid, and it will change into "x" cure potion, or other curative potion. Everything from cure, to a heal.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:A true strike potion isn't especially scary, considering that it has exactly the same cost as just casting the spell (minus the slot) and only lasts for a round. The 3rd level restriction on potions seems to interface nicely with the advent of the wish economy. That doesn't help with the other expendables, but limited volume liquids that you literally consume are more necessarily expendable than, say, wands.

The problem is that nothing stops people from being complete assholes like Hicks and making infinite scrolls of Gate and declaring that to be not broken. Or infinite scrolls of Shapechange, or Superior Invisibility.

The point being that "consumables" is more accurate than "potions" and yes, you really do need to limit it.

Kaelik wrote:

CatharzGodfoot wrote:A true strike potion isn't especially scary, considering that it has exactly the same cost as just casting the spell (minus the slot) and only lasts for a round. The 3rd level restriction on potions seems to interface nicely with the advent of the wish economy. That doesn't help with the other expendables, but limited volume liquids that you literally consume are more necessarily expendable than, say, wands.

The problem is that nothing stops people from being complete assholes like Hicks and making infinite scrolls of Gate and declaring that to be not broken. Or infinite scrolls of Shapechange, or Superior Invisibility.

The point being that "consumables" is more accurate than "potions" and yes, you really do need to limit it.

Scrolls don't need to be consumable.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:

Kaelik wrote:

CatharzGodfoot wrote:A true strike potion isn't especially scary, considering that it has exactly the same cost as just casting the spell (minus the slot) and only lasts for a round. The 3rd level restriction on potions seems to interface nicely with the advent of the wish economy. That doesn't help with the other expendables, but limited volume liquids that you literally consume are more necessarily expendable than, say, wands.

The problem is that nothing stops people from being complete assholes like Hicks and making infinite scrolls of Gate and declaring that to be not broken. Or infinite scrolls of Shapechange, or Superior Invisibility.

The point being that "consumables" is more accurate than "potions" and yes, you really do need to limit it.

Scrolls don't need to be consumable.

That is, however, one of the things that describes scrolls in D&D.

But, no, they don't need to consumable, they could have per day charges or act as extra spell slots that require you to prepare a specific spell in them. (The main difference between these options is that per day charges refresh from magic radiation, and extra spell slots require the character to sit down and prepare his spells.)

Scrolls can seriously just take up a slot as long as they are active.

Only spell slots don't burn a slot.

Using a wand means that it's taking up a slot, and that you have to have a slot either free; or spend 15 minutes to unattune an item to yourself.

Potions
No, you nub, you refill your potion vials

Potions are refilled with a new potion when they are refilled with an other liquid. The liquid used to fill the vial is still going to have it's own properties. So, crude oil is ill advised; even if it is a Greater Restoration potion.

That said, once the duration of a spell wear off, a potion no longer takes up an item slot. So, a Divine Power potion takes up a slot, but a CLW potion you can have 10 of, and use 1 at a time.

Non-stop Potions

kekekeke, no jam, potter!

Non-stop potions are real magic items. They are always worth an additional 15,000 gp compared to the base cost of the potion. They are usable whenever. If you have one in your hand, you can seriously take a drink from one whenever you feel the need.

The vials that are the most fun are the ones that are always re-filled with intoxicating substances.




Prak, that's true, but you know that having a scroll get used; and then set aside, while an other item is equipped in the same slot is bad for the game.

Scrolls

I cannot use any more scrolls today; I've hit my limit

Scrolls are just like potions. If you use them, they take up a slot on order to use he scroll is used, and the scroll continues to take up a slot as long as the spell is active, its writing flaring with power as the spell is activated.

After that, the writing fades from the scroll, making the purchase of several scrolls necessary. This is merely something that forces players to buy 'carrying' equipment; and care about it.

I'm currently running a Tome game, and I think this is how I will deal with the consumables problem:

1) You can't cast spells from scrolls. They're just useful for learning new spells.
2) Charged items (like wands) count toward your attuned 8-item limit.
3) Since potions are limited to 3rd level effects and below, I think I'll run with them as-is.

PhaedrusXY wrote: 1) You can't cast spells from scrolls. They're just useful for learning new spells.

Rogues: UMD is now less awesome.
Sorcerers: Reduced spell availability.
Wizards: Fewer spells per day.

The problem with this setup is that well-played wizards (ie: those that would need toning down) don't really need scrolls - they just prepare the right spells. OTOH, sorcerers are completely boned because they are now less capable of doing utility stuff. Rogues can only have up to 8 spellcasting items now, which means that they must limit either their permanent items (in accordance with the below) or their spellcasting.

Honestly, this seems like a really bad idea. the powerful classes are unaffected, and the rogue, which is a really great class, loses some of its awesome for no reason.

2) Charged items (like wands) count toward your attuned 8-item limit.

OK. Items with piles and piles of charges basically function like permanent items anyways.

3) Since potions are limited to 3rd level effects and below, I think I'll run with them as-is.

Remember that, with the current number of splatbooks around, there are lots and lots of "3rd level effects and below". Your solution thus runs into two problems:
1) At least some of these spells are just really good on their own.
2) Given that spells were written for 3e pretty much haphazardly, it is surely possible to get very large bonuses by quaffing potions that add smaller bonuses of various types to a single stat.

K and I of course toyed with the idea of making wands simply count against the 8 item limit. And while it stops some problems, I wouldn't call it a real solution.

The fact of the matter is that 50 level appropriate spells in a day is broken as fuck, while an extra 4th level spell once a day is really small potatoes at character level 12. Since the "cost" of having something count against your 8 item limit goes away when the item stops existing, that effectively means that you're incentivizing people to use the wands in the really broken way where you blow throw all the charges like a junkie with an autoinjector.

-Username17

The Lunatic Fringe wrote: Rogues: UMD is now less awesome.
Sorcerers: Reduced spell availability.
Wizards: Fewer spells per day.

The problem with this setup is that well-played wizards (ie: those that would need toning down) don't really need scrolls - they just prepare the right spells. OTOH, sorcerers are completely boned because they are now less capable of doing utility stuff. Rogues can only have up to 8 spellcasting items now, which means that they must limit either their permanent items (in accordance with the below) or their spellcasting.

Honestly, this seems like a really bad idea. the powerful classes are unaffected, and the rogue, which is a really great class, loses some of its awesome for no reason.

Sorcerers can use Runestaves, or just normal Staves (yes, staves. I hate the word staffs.)

With the Tome feats and PrCs available, rogues should be fine. They may be more relegated to combat instead of pseudo-spellcasting, but I'm fine with that. Spellcasters should be the ones doing the spellcasting, anyway.

And since staves can hold multiple spells, the 8 item limit on rogues isn't even a big deal, anyway. They could have 6 staves that each allow them to cast 10 different spells each, if they want, and still have room for magic armor and something else.

Remember that, with the current number of splatbooks around, there are lots and lots of "3rd level effects and below". Your solution thus runs into two problems:
1) At least some of these spells are just really good on their own.
2) Given that spells were written for 3e pretty much haphazardly, it is surely possible to get very large bonuses by quaffing potions that add smaller bonuses of various types to a single stat.

That may turn into a problem. If it does, I'll say probably say that if a spell appears on the list of a core spellcasting class, then you have to use the level that it appears at there for the purposes of crafting magic items. I think that should mostly solve it.

Frank wrote:Since the "cost" of having something count against your 8 item limit goes away when the item stops existing, that effectively means that you're incentivizing people to use the wands in the really broken way where you blow throw all the charges like a junkie with an autoinjector.

They can swap the items out with 15 minutes of downtime, anyway. So I don't think this really encourages that.

I don't know that this is a perfect solution, but something is needed. Otherwise everyone will have infinity +1 potions and every combat will start out with everyone pulling out their 9th level scrolls. I'll let you guys know how it goes. As of right now, the PCs are only 7th level and haven't broken into the Wish economy yet, anyway. (It was their decision not to.)

I was thinking of leaving the Candle of Invocation Gate function in the game as a way to break into the Wish economy for those who can't cast Planar Binding, but adding a clause that the Gate function only works once for any given individual in their whole lifetime. If you get rid of this item, then I think you're pretty much limited to anyone who can actually cast Planar Binding (or bootstrap using LPB) to access the Wish economy.

I'll probably have to add that you can't Wish for partially charged items, also.

Has there ever been any adjudication how much minor magic items cost? is it standard for a lowest level bonus item? (1000g for magic armour?)

Prak_Anima wrote:Has there ever been any adjudication how much minor magic items cost? is it standard for a lowest level bonus item? (1000g for magic armour?)

It's how much you can convince somebody to sell or buy them for, but I'm pretty sure that they're less than 15k gp.

What about for purchase by a player?

Prak_Anima wrote:What about for purchase by a player?

Are they buying it from someone? Or is this new character creation?

new character creation

If it's just the basic bonus item, a simple 1k (or 2k for a weapon, even though weapons aren't that impressive actually and totally are not worth twice as much as armor and may even be worth less) plus the cost of masterwork whatever it is should be fine.

-Username17

Prak, it's X items +3000gp in non magic items and consumables. Stop trying to price your magic items.

that works, thanks.

Illusion Magic: I Don't Believe This Crap

<SNIP>

In the end, it's a mess because the current rules can be made to do amazing things by creative people, but those amazing things break the level system and that means that DMs are forced to punish players for their creativity, thus hurting everyone. That being said, here are some playable rules regarding illusions that won't cause you to stab out your own eyes.

Anyone want to speculate on what this would look like?

Game On,
fbmf

fbmf wrote:

Illusion Magic: I Don't Believe This Crap

<SNIP>

In the end, it's a mess because the current rules can be made to do amazing things by creative people, but those amazing things break the level system and that means that DMs are forced to punish players for their creativity, thus hurting everyone. That being said, here are some playable rules regarding illusions that won't cause you to stab out your own eyes.

Anyone want to speculate on what this would look like?

Game On,
fbmf

I guess I'll put that in the queue for Tome Errata.

fbmf wrote: Anyone want to speculate on what this would look like?

Game On,
fbmf

You may only duplicate the sensory effects of another spell of the same level or less, or copy the image of a monster with HD and CR no great than caster level.
I don't know. Illusions are storymode.