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TavishArtair
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Post by TavishArtair »

MartinHarper wrote:
TavishArtair wrote:I suppose the next question is, is this a bad thing? Should we go around attempting to enforce a certain minimum space for a pyromancer?
I would say, good thing. If I'm playing a Fire Wizard, I want his central heating system to be powered by Fire Magic, not coal. Provided Pyromancy is restricted to a single culture (like floatstones) it's entirely reasonable for that culture to have excellent sanitation, a great rail network, and steam-powered farming machinery.
Well, yes, but the question is whether you have a Fire Wizard who has a nice little setup in his house or you have a pyromancer sweatshop where they pack as many pyromancers into as tiny a place as possible in order to maximize efficiency. At which point it does get a bit goofy.

As an aside, in a fantasy setting I worked on some time ago, I did make fire creation as the first magic any humans really used, and as a consequence, the most developed. Magically maintained forges were first developed by the Fire Clan, and as a consequence they would eventually go on to become one of the more dominant groups, since they were far down the technology tree regarding ironworking.
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Post by IGTN »

Yeah, if you have a "Fire Culture" in Atalaya, then you need to do something to make them not become ultra-ironworkers unless you really want that to happen. Maybe iron is believed to be impure and not used heavily for religious reasons, maybe the most efficient, industrial fire magic is impeded by iron being near it to the point that they have limited quotas to how much iron an individual can own in their cities, so that it doesn't mess with their infrastructure too much.

Actually, that second one sounds awesome, and in-flavor for the iron-void-anti/metamagic association.

If training a full-fledged Pyromancer is expensive, you probably won't pack them into sweatshops.

I can, however, envision the Central Plant of the city where the Pyromancers all have individual workshops where they desalinate sewage and then burn the waste, or pump steam to the rest of the city, or pump water into the hot and cold water towers that provide running water to the entire city, or make fertilizer, or power the complex's giant cooling fans (you're operating most of your machinery at a minimum of 373 K up to "as hot as possible," which is about 2000 K if your boilers are made of silica (glass, sand, dirt, and the major ingredient in rock), but your most critical components start to have problems if they get too far from 310 K.)

Alternately, a Central Plant with fewer pyromantic workshops, since the magical fires can sustain themselves for a time, and just need regular monitoring, and the workshops are just where they send broken parts. Mostly, I want to see the Pyromancers walking around the city. Of course, working in shifts where they have more time off than they need to sleep and eat, having vacation time, and so on helps with that, and it's kinda hard to break up a strike of the "people who shoot fire out of their hands" union.
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Post by virgil »

So, will the floating islands have sky mage mills? What do we still need to decide on for the rules for floating rocks?
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Post by Username17 »

I don't think that floatstone would be much use in mills. Or really much of any industrial process. You could dip the stones onto things providing great and relievable pressure - so they'll probably have more compact stuff than other cultures. And it's really good for transporting things long distances. But their industrial machinery would involve using a floatstone attached to a bucket to take things to the top of ramp, then dropping it down to liberate energy. I'm not sure that they could get more power doing that than just setting up a bunch of windmills on top (or bottom) of the floating islands. Certainly seems like the golems are much more important, even if they just slog about being less productive than a normal human.

Probably their best bet is textiles. Massively repetitive labor that is easily programmed into a golem, and a fair advantage for being able to drop several tonnes of crushing press on things. That and trade of course. I think that other nations pretty clearly have competitive advantage in metal work and agriculture.

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Post by virgil »

The important advantage with a floatstone for a mill is location. Even in areas without much wind or rivers can have a mill, just replace the wheel with a large crank that has a floatstone handle. Though depending on the elevation of the islands, this advantage won't be considered.

But pressure application is one of the purposes of a mill; fulling textiles, pressing olives, grinding wheat (easy just by pressing and dragging), etc. You'd probably get better use out of a golem doing grinding and a couple other processes, now that you mention it (grab a handle and walk in a circle) I'm not sure how you want iron to work with it, but if you cap the stone with iron, you completely replace stamp mills with ease.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Could I mill floatstone, mortar and pistol it, make snuff, snort snort, and get high?
Really high?
Literally?
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Post by Beth_Naught »

Okay, stream of consciousnessy stuff.

700,000 people in ~= 50 km^2 is dense - that's post-Renaissance London, Pax Romana Rome, or tenth century Baghdad. The minimum magically-assisted tech level must be at least as high as those cities or people starve; any medieval neo-iron age is a forgotten stage of prehistory.

A metropolis requires above all else a supply of food and trade, and neither of those are possible here without flight (no roads lead to this Rome). Skymages extend life-or-death power over the economy. Thus they're the sole powerful mercantile class, if not the ruling oligarchs; they can't be cloistered hieratics and still do their jobs. There need to be lots of them too - perhaps as many as one person in a hundred is at least a minor hedge wizard.

Given that, there probably aren't skymages per se. Some mages still specialize in maize desmutting, weather tampering, golem craft, diamond forging, and suchlike, but if you can't lift a magic rock you're probably a peasant. Disappointing and inexorable?

With forklifts a definite part of the picture, we can look at aqueducts: simple machines that need building (and might need maintenance) but don't need a pilot. It's impractical for a resident of this city to go dig peat, and it's goofy to jaunt down to the local Pyromart for a packet of Suddenly, There's Plasma! (c), so the household hearth contains an everburning swad, your compluvium fills itself, and nobody gasps to see golems or zombies handling all the unskilled labor - like the aforementioned milling and cotton ginning. So the folks in the peasantry are kinda-bourgeois crafters dwelling in a deliberately manipulated microclimate.

All of which makes the capitol city a tempting target for needy barbarians - where do they live? If the floatstone culture is isolated, are individual cities conducting internecene Medici versus Petrucci style warfare? If the culture's not isolated, is it enough just to build your house on the most aerially fortified stronghold around, or do you need more than perfunctory experience in pyromantic firebombering and anti-siege engineering?

And this:
I think that other nations pretty clearly have competitive advantage in metal work and agriculture.
sounds important too - how can you characterize in terms of what's scarce when saffron and strawberries are relatively abundant compared to wheat? Is there anything besides raw materials that people can't reasonably get enough of? Land is lacking and the culture is too technolgized and interdependent to be readily exportable, so if people aren't killing each other (a lot) there's going to be overpopulation. That may not be enough.

Am I barging in here, by the way? Might have asked that first, but it'd require, you know, foresight.
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Post by Username17 »

Beth wrote:Am I barging in here, by the way? Might have asked that first, but it'd require, you know, foresight.
Absolutely not. Barge right in.
sigma wrote:Could I mill floatstone, mortar and pistol it, make snuff, snort snort, and get high?
Really high?
Literally?
No. Each piece of float stone needs to be attuned and set separately. So not only is there a comparative advantage for using larger pieces, by the time it's reduced to sand it's essentially unusable.
IGTN wrote:Yeah, if you have a "Fire Culture" in Atalaya, then you need to do something to make them not become ultra-ironworkers unless you really want that to happen. Maybe iron is believed to be impure and not used heavily for religious reasons, maybe the most efficient, industrial fire magic is impeded by iron being near it to the point that they have limited quotas to how much iron an individual can own in their cities, so that it doesn't mess with their infrastructure too much.
I think that medieval superstition has a good answer here: Iron dampens fairy magic. By having iron literally and specifically dampen the effects of old magic it has a very real place in the world and also causes very understandable fear and loathing in a lot of people. Pure iron literally cools pyromantic fires and visibly lowers the lifting strength of floatstone. That would make iron working special by jiminy.
Beth wrote:that's post-Renaissance London, Pax Romana Rome, or tenth century Baghdad. The minimum magically-assisted tech level must be at least as high as those cities or people starve; any medieval neo-iron age is a forgotten stage of prehistory.
Or Teotihuacan. The tech level to sustain that kind of population is quite independent of even having metal working. You just need decent plumbing and really good concrete. Frankly, I think the Redarkhan would like to treat iron working as kind of a fad. Even though the empire was created with the might of land-bound iron using soldiers (who may have been mercenaries), the island cities themselves have probably quite strict limits on how much iron can be taken up - iron "weighs more" than its weight.

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Post by TavishArtair »

FrankTrollman wrote:I think that medieval superstition has a good answer here: Iron dampens fairy magic. By having iron literally and specifically dampen the effects of old magic it has a very real place in the world and also causes very understandable fear and loathing in a lot of people. Pure iron literally cools pyromantic fires and visibly lowers the lifting strength of floatstone. That would make iron working special by jiminy.
So you come from the Fire Clan Hive Mosnya, and you know fire magic. You fight with fire magic. What does that really mean? Well, you can't fight with too much iron, because that would weaken your magical powers, but before iron was bronze. So you deck yourself out in bronze plate and black leather and fabric, not even caring about how hot it is because you can control heat. In fact, the more heat you attract, the better, since that's your livelihood.

People who try to fight you in the open waste are damned to hellish fires. You bend the damning sunlight into a coruscating lambent beam of destruction which causes your opponents to burst into flame as it licks across their ranks as if they were tinder, and melts through their armor. People who attempt to run into close combat must endure the desiccating heat wave that seems to roll off of you, even more horridly hot than the dust and rock around you. But if a foe actually manages to remain standing and not drop, you have your sword ready for him. Bronze is a lot different from iron... it conducts heat much better. You carefully measure out fire into it, stopping short of melting it, and thrust it into the warrior's body, tearing him open like a hot knife through butter.

As the stink of burning flesh rises from his corpse, you turn as your warriors hurl another volley of javelins, their bronze tips glowing like stars as they pierce and consume the wooden shields of the barbarians. You advance as another hot gust saps their energy and sears their will to fight, your burning sword a comfortable warmth as you bring it to tear through their ranks, scattering them before the fiery winds.
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Post by virgil »

How tough would an iron-clad warrior be against old world magic then? Would fire bolts slough off them like water on a duck's back? Would they still be vulnerable to smoke and heat exhaustion by the pyromancer heating up the air and blowing it their way?
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Post by zeruslord »

I don't think you're going crazy enough with Mosnya. They should be using javelins of pure bronze or going for stuff with absurd melting points, like tungsten or something. Pyromancers can cool the crucible while heating whatever metal they are working, so they can use thoroughly impractical metals whenever they feel like it. Also, they can probably cheat enough to fling around aluminum for armor and things, if Frank is open to it.
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Post by virgil »

It would largely require a decision on how what pyromancy is expected to be able to do (and not do). I don't recall the setting have much in the pyromancy though, so I'm curious as to how versatile it would be.
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Post by IGTN »

virgileso wrote:It would largely require a decision on how what pyromancy is expected to be able to do (and not do). I don't recall the setting have much in the pyromancy though, so I'm curious as to how versatile it would be.
Fire is one of the setting's seven elements, so it should have about as much fire magic as it does air or water magic.

Of course, there are two "air cultures" (skymages and weather control), so air magic might be a bit more diverse than fire, but fire is still supposed to be there.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

IGTN wrote:Of course, there are two "air cultures" (skymages and weather control), so air magic might be a bit more diverse than fire, but fire is still supposed to be there.
Sky mages do earth magic.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Beth_Naught wrote: Am I barging in here, by the way? Might have asked that first, but it'd require, you know, foresight.
Good points mentioned, thoughtful.
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Post by Username17 »

virgileso wrote:How tough would an iron-clad warrior be against old world magic then? Would fire bolts slough off them like water on a duck's back? Would they still be vulnerable to smoke and heat exhaustion by the pyromancer heating up the air and blowing it their way?
This being a game, the answer should probably be "resistant enough to make fighting them with hammers rather than firebolts optimal, but not resistant enough to make the firebolts be completely ineffective if that's your thing." Being an Iron Clad should make you very powerful against a Flame Sprite, but not so powerful that it pushes Flame Sprites all the way off the RNG.

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Post by virgil »

Reasonable decision.

And now, what should the role of pyromancy be in the setting? Just having it be the direct manifestation of fire without fuel does most everything associated with fire mages. Direct manipulation & redirection of heat creates a different image, as that makes pyromancers easily throwing twin bolts of fire and ice at people, or it overly encourages them to be constant arsonists so they have ammo available (forcing them into a role of destruction).
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Post by TavishArtair »

virgileso wrote:Reasonable decision.

And now, what should the role of pyromancy be in the setting? Just having it be the direct manifestation of fire without fuel does most everything associated with fire mages. Direct manipulation & redirection of heat creates a different image, as that makes pyromancers easily throwing twin bolts of fire and ice at people, or it overly encourages them to be constant arsonists so they have ammo available (forcing them into a role of destruction).
Obviously I'm not Frank, but the way I saw it, a fire mage enjoyed a tactical bonus when he was in an area which was very "hot", either because of the building being on fire around him or because of the burning rays of the sun beating down on the rocky desert, kind of like how firebenders in Avatar had an advantage during the day/summer/and even rarer cosmological events (such as the comet), while a penalty when operating at night/winter/even rarer cosmological events (such as the eclipse). Now, smaller differences can easily be discounted, but it seems to me that Hive Mosnya should get more common fire magic for a reason. The badlands encourage it.

As to controlling heat, it seems reasonable that a fire mage can tell a fire to stop and turn back... after all, otherwise what kind of magician are you if you can't even exert a basic control over what you claim to be a master of? But hurling bolts of ice is not their thing. They could probably attempt to steal heat from something but it wouldn't let them hurl cold like a javelin, and they can't manipulate water (or frozen water) so that's right out. It would also be most likely that they'd have to direct the heat to go somewhere... making things actually cooler doesn't seem their thing.
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Post by JonSetanta »

FrankTrollman wrote: This being a game, the answer should probably be "resistant enough to make fighting them with hammers rather than firebolts optimal, but not resistant enough to make the firebolts be completely ineffective if that's your thing." Being an Iron Clad should make you very powerful against a Flame Sprite, but not so powerful that it pushes Flame Sprites all the way off the RNG.
What, like some kind of same-archetype antagonism concerning effectiveness of attack vs. inherent defenses?

Mage -> Mage, Mages are resistant to physical so using magic is best against them
Warrior -> Warrior, Warriors are resistant to spells so using swords is best against them

But Mage -> Warrior is 80% or so as effective. 50% or near would be too far.

(Granted TNE doesn't use such archetypes but in comparing Iron Clad to Sprite it is similar in ability type)
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Post by virgil »

I worked under the assumption that Hive Mosnya lived in the badlands not because fire magic worked better, but because fire magic allowed them to live there; a natural synergy as it were. Once you need fire magic to survive, you end up with a lot of fire mages.

And while you can't hurl ice, pulling heat to throw at people is by definition making the source colder. Therefore, you pull enough heat out of someone to do cold damage, then use all of that heat to make a fire bolt. Even if you put in some kind of absolute minimum in terms of final temperature due to pulling, once you set someone on fire and instantly make them room temperature, you're still going to do major damage from the change.
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Post by Beth_Naught »

Thanks, folks :)

Although I'm deliriously uncertain which squirmy set of prospective new-editiony rules apply to this setting*, I don't think X-Men Pyro suffices as the iconic pyromancer; the Venn circles are too small and don't overlap enough. It's not that his "augment and shape an existing flame" power isn't delightful, it's just too monotonous to be a combat shitck. And while Pyro can run a coal-free forge and an coal-free Archimedian steam engine, other regions completely duplicate those just by having coal.

Discounting caste, you might have
  • Burning Rage: You're real angry. Enemies receive the Fight-or-Flight debuff and fail intimidation tests.
  • Burn at Both Ends: Take a wound. Your next damaging offensive power does an extra wound. You did pick some area effect damage, didn't you?
  • Char: An object becomes hard and brittle.
  • Firewalker: Ignore terrain as though you tread a road of ashes.
  • Hyperthermia: Enemies are weakened and can't brain so good.
  • Mirage: Heat gradients in the air garble vision.
  • Peat Fire: You have your very own tunnel.
  • Phase Change: Liquids evaporate. Solids melt or sublimate.
  • Pyrolysis: Transform a flammable object into another flammable object of the same basic shape.
  • Radiant Sheath: Water and cold effects don't bother you as much. Air and iron effects bother you more.
  • Sow Crimson Seeds: An area is on fire. Everything in that area risks being on fire too. You could use this to create a firebreak, but who are we kidding here, Smokey?
  • Sun's Eye View: Within some radius, you can observe whatever the sun can. Don't expect to manage your feet at the same time.
  • Swaddled in Smoke: Mass Invisibility, except targets can't see either.
  • Tongue of Fire: You talk to fire. Someone else talking to fire can answer.
  • Warm the Belly: Your forage probably doesn't give you e. coli.
  • Waxen Seal: You use a candle to heal a wound.
...which starts on create fire and transform fire but doesn't include move fire or destroy fire.

I'm also assuming off-camera story effects and anything that acts like a buff belong in a separate ritual magic system, in which several mages each lead a group of twelve rubes in a litany, tapping into said rubes' precious bodily fluids qi. Which is renewable like plasma in phlebotomy and lets you employ macroeffects like "All fungi in this hectacre get a free month's worth of growth" or "Everyone in the tribe can walk 100km today without fatigue". The extra layer of ritual indirection stops buffstampede ambushes from always winning and allows horizon spanning magics that don't logically imply the ability to cast horizon spanning Black Tentacles in combat.

[edited to add]
* The New Edition wiki is overlain with linkspam.

Also, one of those links is "date linnaeus carl". Sounds fun, what should I wear?
[/edit]
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Post by Beth_Naught »

It also seriously just occurred to me that the islets of Redarkhan have to be more like a pair of enantiomorphic ziggurats pasted base-to-base than like a uprooted plot with shanties atop. Otherwise the islets weigh too much; honeycombing reduces mass and increases habitable volume.
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Post by Username17 »

Beth_Naught wrote:It also seriously just occurred to me that the islets of Redarkhan have to be more like a pair of enantiomorphic ziggurats pasted base-to-base than like a uprooted plot with shanties atop. Otherwise the islets weigh too much; honeycombing reduces mass and increases habitable volume.
Really? Since the base material has excess lift proportional to its mass, it shouldn't matter where the city is placed inside of, on top of, or under the island itself. Indeed, since the supportable mass from each block is going to be larger than the block when filled with "city" - there seems to be little advantage in honeycombing.

Any cave you put into the island could be filled with floatstone and then the carrying capacity of the island would be increased by more than the mass of whatever city functions you would otherwise be able to put into the hole. You're thinking about this as if it was balanced concrete blocks. But it is the concrete blocks themselves that provide positional stability - so actually hollow spaces are the enemy of weight support limits.

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Post by Beth_Naught »

My mental image was more like city block made out of mystically hardened stone dangling from a few dozen moored floatstones. Mostly because if you have floatstone I-beams then you'd want to build them into the skyships as well, so they can't fall and you need the vulnerable pendulatory stones only as engines.

Not a problem to resketch a mental image though :)
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Post by Username17 »

I'm not talking about floatstone ibeams or anything, and indeed the amount of floatstone is going be very much less than the amount of city in the islands. Each of the floatstones themselves are just big cubes, but where they physically are is largely irrelevant I should think. One meter-cube stone supports about 6 tonnes of material - which in turn is about 80 standard sheetrock wall segments and the nails to hold them together. Which means that with light construction, a 1 meter cube has the lifting power to support a roughly 4x8 meter building that is two stories high.

So clearly I think there is no room "in" the island for the amount of city that can exist with the lifting power they have. And the city and the sland both are probably way over built because the limits of getting your stuff blown down in a strong wind are of more immediate concern than running out of weight capacity for the city. A couple of "very large" floatstones could produce enough lift to hold up some stupidly massive settlements as long as they weren't made of equally sized heaps of stone with a Mayan priest on top.

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