Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[JonSetanta]

The joke is on you, because I never sleep.

I do agree that level-based durations are absolutely retarded. Some creatures, however, don't have to sleep. Watch the ghoul cleric spend a few days casting every 10 minutes/level or greater duration spell on herself and then never having to spend slots on buffs again.

Fucking Warforged!
Fortunately there is a clause; they can't regain spells unless they.. uh... lie down for 8 hours and.. pretend to sleep?

Living Construct Traits:

- Unlike other constructs, a living contstruct has a Constitution score. A living construct does not gain bonus hit points by size but gains (or loses) bonus hit points through its Constitution score as with other living creatures.

- Unlike other constructs, a living construct does not have low-light vision or darkvision.

- Unlike other constructs, a living contruct is not immune to mind-influencing effects.

- Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain.

- A living construct cannot heal damage naturally.

Unlike other constructs, living constructs are subject to critical hits, effects requiring a Fortitude save, death from massive damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, death effects, and necromancy effects.

- Living constructs can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs. Damage dealt to a living construct can be healed by a Cure Light Wounds spell or a Repair Light Damage spell, for example, and a living construct is vulnerable to a Harm spell. However, spells from the healing subschool provide only half effect to a living construct.

- A living construct responds slightly differently from other living creatures when reduced to 0 Hit Points. A living construct that has 0 Hit Points is Disabled, just like a living creature. He can only take a single more action or standard action in each round, but strenuous activity does not risk further injury. When his Hit Points are less than 0 and greater than -10, a living construct is inert. He is unconscious and helpless, and he cannot perform any actions. However, an inert living construct does not lose additional Hit Points unless more damage is dealt to him, as with a living creature that is stable.

- Can be raised or resurrected.

- Does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as Heroes' Feast and potions.

- Does not need to sleep, but must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells.

That's fine if they expend all slots and never sleep, but they ain't getting those slots back.

[schpeelah]

unless they.. uh... lie down for 8 hours and.. pretend to sleep?

To regain the ability to cast or prepare daily spells, an undead must have a clear mind. To clear its mind, the undead must experience 8 hours of restful calm—it must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other demanding physical or mental task during the rest period.

I always assumed that "rest" is supposed to be any kind of downtime when you aren't doing anything noteworthy, but apparently it's vital for game balance that wizards can't talk or move for 8 hours every time they want to regain spells.

[LR]

I can't figure out why the 8 hour rest period exists when the 8 hour casting limit is already there. Is it really such a crime for a Wizard to sit down for an hour and reprepare his remaining slots?

Until sunset, midnight, sunrise, or midday <-- Problematic when you have trouble keeping time

I'm in favor of dawn/noon/dusk/midnight spell timers. They give magic a bit more verisimilitude and concrete durations without setting independent timers. Keeping track of the time of day for the whole group is a lot less headache-inducing than keeping track of the timer on every spell you cast. My only problem with them is that I've never been able to find a good word to put in the Duration field. Quadrant would work, but that evokes images of Nature's Harmonic Simultaneous 4-Day Time Cube.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The joke is on you, because I never sleep.

I do agree that level-based durations are absolutely retarded. Some creatures, however, don't have to sleep. Watch the ghoul cleric spend a few days casting every 10 minutes/level or greater duration spell on herself and then never having to spend slots on buffs again.

Fucking Warforged!
Fortunately there is a clause; they can't regain spells unless they.. uh... lie down for 8 hours and.. pretend to sleep?

Living Construct Traits:

- Unlike other constructs, a living contstruct has a Constitution score. A living construct does not gain bonus hit points by size but gains (or loses) bonus hit points through its Constitution score as with other living creatures.

- Unlike other constructs, a living construct does not have low-light vision or darkvision.

- Unlike other constructs, a living contruct is not immune to mind-influencing effects.

- Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain.

- A living construct cannot heal damage naturally.

Unlike other constructs, living constructs are subject to critical hits, effects requiring a Fortitude save, death from massive damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, death effects, and necromancy effects.

- Living constructs can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs. Damage dealt to a living construct can be healed by a Cure Light Wounds spell or a Repair Light Damage spell, for example, and a living construct is vulnerable to a Harm spell. However, spells from the healing subschool provide only half effect to a living construct.

- A living construct responds slightly differently from other living creatures when reduced to 0 Hit Points. A living construct that has 0 Hit Points is Disabled, just like a living creature. He can only take a single more action or standard action in each round, but strenuous activity does not risk further injury. When his Hit Points are less than 0 and greater than -10, a living construct is inert. He is unconscious and helpless, and he cannot perform any actions. However, an inert living construct does not lose additional Hit Points unless more damage is dealt to him, as with a living creature that is stable.

- Can be raised or resurrected.

- Does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as Heroes' Feast and potions.

- Does not need to sleep, but must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells.

That's fine if they expend all slots and never sleep, but they ain't getting those slots back.

Clerics don't need to rest in any way to regain their spells; they just arrive at one of the corners of the day if the cleric prays for a minute or so.

I can't figure out why the 8 hour rest period exists when the 8 hour casting limit is already there. Is it really such a crime for a Wizard to sit down for an hour and reprepare his remaining slots?

Until sunset, midnight, sunrise, or midday <-- Problematic when you have trouble keeping time

I'm in favor of dawn/noon/dusk/midnight spell timers. They give magic a bit more verisimilitude and concrete durations without setting independent timers. Keeping track of the time of day for the whole group is a lot less headache-inducing than keeping track of the timer on every spell you cast. My only problem with them is that I've never been able to find a good word to put in the Duration field. Quadrant would work, but that evokes images of Nature's Harmonic Simultaneous 4-Day Time Cube.

I think that any association with timecube would be awesome. Also, I think that rest-based durations make sense for wizard while solar durations make sense for druids. As long as the game retains the difference in spell preparation times, it might as well have a difference in durations. As a side effect, druids (and maybe clerics) should have perfect internal clocks.

[hogarth]

Clerics don't need to rest in any way to regain their spells; they just arrive at one of the corners of the day if the cleric prays for a minute or so.

Maybe the slots come back with a brief prayer, but preparing spells still takes an hour.

"A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment."

[Bihlbo]

... whereas preparing spells for a wizard can take as little as 15 minutes, but requires 8 hours of sleep. "I can sometimes save 45 minutes" isn't nearly as good a benefit as "I don't need to sleep for spells," which has always bothered me.

I very much prefer a system where every caster casts spontaneously and prepares spells the same way, after playing a couple of games using it.

[Slade]

... whereas preparing spells for a wizard can take as little as 15 minutes, but requires 8 hours of sleep. "I can sometimes save 45 minutes" isn't nearly as good a benefit as "I don't need to sleep for spells," which has always bothered me.

I very much prefer a system where every caster casts spontaneously and prepares spells the same way, after playing a couple of games using it.

I think Warcraft d20 or World of Warcraft d20 did that.
Everyone gets casting like Spirit Shaman (spontaneously) a certain number of your known spells. This number is increased by ranks in Spellcraft.
Spontaneous don't have that limit, but I found at higher levels the Wizard had about same spontaneous known as Sorceror so it kind of nerfed the Sorcerors uniqueness.

[ScottS]

So, place your bets. Out of 100 randomly generated items, how many do you think would be vendor trash? I'd say 95.

Vendor-trash-themed questions:

Should the notion of "level-appropriate gear" even exist, and if so, should the loot tables allow any chance of getting stuff above/below your level?

Are "letters to Santa" a good idea?

Should the party composition have any effect at all on what found loot they get? (e.g. the Vulcan lirpa specced guy finding an incrementally better Vulcan lirpa every N levels, even if no one else on the planet uses that weapon)

Would dropping class limitations on gear usage make it less likely that PCs would throw away/turn their nose up at stuff (and would it be OK for the game)?

Should PCs be able to sell gear they don't want?

Should PCs be able to buy or craft gear they want but can't find?

(Last two questions are separated, rather than combined into "Should there be a market for magic gear?", because they've been separated in some editions, e.g. AD&D you could sell but not buy, 4e you can buy but are punished for selling, etc.)

[Maxus]

The answer the last two: Yes. There should be. The players should not exist in a vacuum in the world, which is why I try to come up with NPCs of all levels who do adventuring or things related to it.

So on a random treasure generator, they got a haul of adamantine and mithril. I have a stock Mega-Smith character who will gladly take it off their hands and give them stuff made out of it a little later.

Other adventuring parties, or adventurers looking for something specific, will trade them things they don't want for things they do. It's also easy to throw sidequests at the party to go looking for these people who -do- care about magic items and raw materials and odd magic weapons and will remember to return the favor.

[hogarth]

I very much prefer a system where every caster casts spontaneously and prepares spells the same way, after playing a couple of games using it.

I think Warcraft d20 or World of Warcraft d20 did that.

Likewise with Arcana Evolved.

[PoliteNewb]

Should the notion of "level-appropriate gear" even exist, and if so, should the loot tables allow any chance of getting stuff above/below your level?

No. You should be level appropriate without gear, so ANY gear should (by definition) make you better than an average person your level. If not, then you get into gear being required, which sucks. A high-level fighter should be able to kick ass with the sword he took off a guard...any magic sword he finds is gravy, that will enable him to kick the ass of more powerful things than usual.

Are "letters to Santa" a good idea?

Depends on your relationship with your DM.

Should the party composition have any effect at all on what found loot they get? (e.g. the Vulcan lirpa specced guy finding an incrementally better Vulcan lirpa every N levels, even if no one else on the planet uses that weapon)

Generally, yes. As I said above, ideally you shouldn't NEED a magic version of your preferred weapon to kick ass, so you shouldn't need to coincidentally find a magic version of your preferred weapon in a treasure pile. That said, there is nothing wrong with tailoring treasure piles to your characters. 2 further points:
a.) IMO, you shouldn't need to keep finding better and better versions of your weapon (see "level-appropriate", above)...once you find a magic weapon, it should be good enough for a sizable chunk of your career.
b.) there's no reason you can't hear myths and legends and whatnot about the fabled "XXX of YYYY", a legendary obscure weapon that you happen to be specialized with, and so you decide to go track it down.

Would dropping class limitations on gear usage make it less likely that PCs would throw away/turn their nose up at stuff (and would it be OK for the game)?

I assume you're talking stuff like letting fighters use wands of fireballs and like that? *shrug* It'd probably be fine.

Should PCs be able to sell gear they don't want?

Sure.

Should PCs be able to buy or craft gear they want but can't find?

IMO, no. Crafting is slightly more okay, but I feel the process should be a pain in the ass (which some people feel is bullshit). I prefer the model where all the magic is from some "golden age" of sorcery, and it can't be (easily) duplicated by present day people.
Buying is right out. Being able to leverage a pile of gold into more power is fucked.
(you might think letting PCs sell but not buy is bullshit, but I don't see a problem. You can't buy the mona lisa, but if you got your hands on it and wanted to sell it for $500 bucks, you could probably do that...you'd just be a dumbass, and it's assumed that other people are not such dumbasses.)

[CatharzGodfoot]

So, place your bets. Out of 100 randomly generated items, how many do you think would be vendor trash? I'd say 95.

Vendor-trash-themed questions:

Should the notion of "level-appropriate gear" even exist, and if so, should the loot tables allow any chance of getting stuff above/below your level?

I think that there should be level-appropriate gear, but only based on what sorts of powers are appropriate at a given level. Picking up a nonmagic sword probably shouldn't in general decrease a warrior's damage output, although it might be more difficult to hit a ghost with than a a flaming sword (or torch). Most magic items should be along the lines of flaying carpets (level appropriate as soon as flight is), planar gateways (level appropriate as soon as planar travel is), phasing cloaks (level appropriate as soon as teleportation is), lyres of building (level appropriate as soon as rapidly creating fortifications is), and horns of blasting (level appropriate as soon as messing up terrain is).

Dealing in "vendor trash" should literally make the PCs merchants, and should be part of the merchants & mariners minigame.

[tzor]

Should the notion of "level-appropriate gear" even exist, and if so, should the loot tables allow any chance of getting stuff above/below your level?

Yes, but not in the sense most people use the notion. I think that all items have a certain level of power and with that power comes the necessary level needed to hold on or keep that item. Anything above your level will eventually find itself to someone of the more appropriate level.

Consequently, items below your level make great "gifts."

Are "letters to Santa" a good idea?

Yes, but that doesn't mean Santa comes around once a year and gives you everythying on his list. It does mean that you stragnely stumble upon this quest and ... look what is at the end of this glorious adventure.

Should the party composition have any effect at all on what found loot they get? (e.g. the Vulcan lirpa specced guy finding an incrementally better Vulcan lirpa every N levels, even if no one else on the planet uses that weapon)

Within reason. I think that the guy who uses a weapon generally no one else in the world uses is one of those knock your head against the wall things. My personal preference is not to have the world littered with better coppies of this never used by others weapon but ways to improve the weapon he already has.

Would dropping class limitations on gear usage make it less likely that PCs would throw away/turn their nose up at stuff (and would it be OK for the game)?

I'm not sure.

Should PCs be able to sell gear they don't want?

I'm going to waffle on this one. It really depends on the gear and where they are at the time. As an old school DM I tend to believe in the law of unintended consequences ... the gear they sold somehow winds up in the hands of the enemies that attack them.

Should PCs be able to buy or craft gear they want but can't find?

Yes, but it can't be all that easy as to avoid effort on their part. Fantasy is not having an item, but questing for an item and succeeding therein.

[Bihlbo]

I very much prefer a system where every caster casts spontaneously and prepares spells the same way, after playing a couple of games using it.

I think Warcraft d20 or World of Warcraft d20 did that.

Likewise with Arcana Evolved.

And the EQrpg had a great system, ported straight from EQ: All casters have 8 spells available at any time. Changing the spell out for another requires a Spellcraft check, which determines how long it takes. If you max ranks you can take 10 to change a spell as a full-round action. So all casters had nearly identical flexibility as far as prepared spells go, with limitations based instead on class spell lists. Conceptually, it is beautiful, though spell lists and casting costs were extremely different in that game than they are in straight D&D.

[Psychic Robot]

And the EQrpg had a great system

Yes, that was necessary.

[Roy]

So, place your bets. Out of 100 randomly generated items, how many do you think would be vendor trash? I'd say 95.

Vendor-trash-themed questions:

Should the notion of "level-appropriate gear" even exist, and if so, should the loot tables allow any chance of getting stuff above/below your level?

Define the term. If you mean something like a Str belt +2 when you're level 15, it might happen, but don't be surprised if it gets sold. If you mean more like a Str belt +4 at level 3, then no. If it's a smaller difference than that then yes, if you beat higher level enemies. Defeating the CR 8 BBEG gets you nice loot even if you're level 4... perhaps especially then.

Are "letters to Santa" a good idea?

Mage Mart works better for that.

Should the party composition have any effect at all on what found loot they get? (e.g. the Vulcan lirpa specced guy finding an incrementally better Vulcan lirpa every N levels, even if no one else on the planet uses that weapon)

Mage Mart works better for that. It's more likely the loot will be suited to what is useful to the enemy you just robbed. So if you are fighting a Wizard, you can expect him to have Wizard gear, and if you are also a Wizard it's likely you'll want dibs on his stuff.

Would dropping class limitations on gear usage make it less likely that PCs would throw away/turn their nose up at stuff (and would it be OK for the game)?

How many items actually are class specific? Most of the vendor trash problems come up for items that are useless to everyone. Most of the rest come up because you already have it, or already have something better, or just don't need it but it's not class specific. Items that actually are class specific, either literally (Paladin Holy Avenger) or figuratively (if you're not a Warlock, you care fuck all about those things that add Eldritch Blast damage).

Should PCs be able to sell gear they don't want?

Absofuckinglutely.

Should PCs be able to buy or craft gear they want but can't find?

See previous comment.

[TOZ]

And the EQrpg had a great system

Yes, that was necessary.

Agreed. Any system that has monsters with damage reduction, magic damage reduction, energy resistance, and fast healing, is fucking retarded.

Also, level 20 kobolds.

[Datawolf]

... Most magic items should be along the lines of flaying carpets ...

There are few things on the interwebz funnier than a well placed spelling/grammatical error.

While we're on this train of thought, though, what do you guys think of cursed items? Normally I thoroughly despise them unless they subscribe to the Ravenloft school of thought where the item's curse is related to its history and has a story effect as well as a mechanical effect and at least one kind of escape clause. Cursed items are (in my opinion and experience) best used as adventure hooks in order to prevent them from becoming too annoying.

[Slade]

... Most magic items should be along the lines of flaying carpets ...

There are few things on the interwebz funnier than a well placed spelling/grammatical error.

While we're on this train of thought, though, what do you guys think of cursed items? Normally I thoroughly despise them unless they subscribe to the Ravenloft school of thought where the item's curse is related to its history and has a story effect as well as a mechanical effect and at least one kind of escape clause. Cursed items are (in my opinion and experience) best used as adventure hooks in order to prevent them from becoming too annoying.

Only Armor of Rage and other reduced price items were worth it. They are just normal items with reduced cost (at least in 3.5) and minor side effect.
Armor of Rage is just giving enemies bless (+1 morale hit) (since most enemies cast Prayer or bless anyway this isn't a terrible side effect).
The Cha penalty does suck but only if you need Cha for some reason.

In Pathfinder they aren't cheaper version with side effects, but just sucky and worth same as uncursed ones. So no reason to ever use them.

[RobbyPants]

I like their idea as a story line MacGuffin, but I wouldn't want to use it much as a screw-you to the players.

The worst I ever did in that regard was back in 2E when I was trying to get a player to think more in character and to stop meta-gaming his decisions. I put a Girdle of Femininity-Masculinity in a hoard because I knew he'd think it was a Girdle of Giant Strength and not bother to identify it and grab it before the other players had a chance. It was funny from my side, but it's an arguably old-school way of thinking.

[Roy]

... Most magic items should be along the lines of flaying carpets ...

There are few things on the interwebz funnier than a well placed spelling/grammatical error.

While we're on this train of thought, though, what do you guys think of cursed items? Normally I thoroughly despise them unless they subscribe to the Ravenloft school of thought where the item's curse is related to its history and has a story effect as well as a mechanical effect and at least one kind of escape clause. Cursed items are (in my opinion and experience) best used as adventure hooks in order to prevent them from becoming too annoying.

Either they just end up useless derailments, or have hilariously unintended side effects. Fuck you, Dust of Sneezing and Choking. The question when determining whether anyone should have any item is to ask why they have it. The most common reason of course is that it helps them. Cursed items are defined by their not being helpful. So who would keep them around? Answer: No one. You only encounter them anyways because HURR DURR WOULDN'T IT BE FUNNY IF SOMETHING LOOKED USEFUL BUT WAS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE AND THERE'S NO WAY TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE?

[mean_liar]

I always liked the idea of tossing Scarabs of Death encased in small clay vessels from a sling.

[Fuchs]

With cursed items, the one question a GM should ask him/herself before implementing any is: Why is it cursed? Was it created that way, and if so, by whom and why? Or was it once a normal item, and later changed? If so, how and by what method?

[Koumei]

Flaying Carpet (Medium Magic Item)

This carpet, when unrolled, extends in a 5' wide, 20' long line. Every creature in the line must pass a Ref save (based on your Cha) or suffer 1d6 Slashing damage per HD and 1d6 Strength damage from having their muscles sliced.

It takes a Full Round action to roll it back up.

Requirements: Flensing (the spell), a Carpet or Rug

[Darth Rabbitt]

Per your HD, or theirs?