D&D is a cooperative RPG

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shadzar
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Post by shadzar »

Don't know that much about 3rd Maj, so hopefully someone will answer you.
Wrathzog wrote:The system still allows for broken-ass characters. The System is Broken.
That's all there is to it. This is very simple.
No the system doesnt. You are still overlooking part of the system, because you are trying to create a character in a vacuum, and play it inside the bell jar while others are not in there with it.

The system states the game is cooperative. That means the characters created in a vacuum are NOT allowed by the system as the system is not jsut the books, but the people you are playing with as well.

Maybe this concept is too much for some people to grasp, that the rules will never all be contained in the books, yet people want them so bad. But the fact remains that the rules exist for the players, and the other players are a PART of the rules.

The cherry-picked wizard isn't broken, but allowed, and CAN be played if the other players of the CURRENT GROUP allow it to be played. The rules cannot tell 5 people to allow one person to play any character, just because he/she wants to.

Because the system allows it to be created doesn't mean it allows it to be PLAYED. This is where the other players come in and have a say.

You want something black and white that tells you what you can or cannot do, however the system has a variable component which is the other players. Players at different tables will be different, and so the rules themselves will be removed or used in the fashion that fits the group. Including allowing you to play your by-the-rules broken-ass character, or not.

The rules don't let you play a character, just let you make them...the other players let you play them.
Last edited by shadzar on Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
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good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Wrathzog
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Post by Wrathzog »

Dude, you are seriously a walking and talking oberani fallacy.
Maybe this concept is too much for some people to grasp
Yep. Exactly.
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Post by Plebian »

Wrathzog wrote:
Sabs wrote:No, the game is no PVP.
Actually, D&D can definitely include PVP. My very last session of 3.5 D&D was filled with Party on Party combat. It was actually a lot of fun what with all the exploding people. (It was also very short)
all levels of 3e have PvP; monsters with class levels are, effectively, players because they're built the same as players. though your average DM will not build an optimized monster because it'd do far too much damage for its worth.

so, yeah, PvP mechanics happen tons in 3e
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Post by shadzar »

Plebian wrote:
Wrathzog wrote:
Sabs wrote:No, the game is no PVP.
Actually, D&D can definitely include PVP. My very last session of 3.5 D&D was filled with Party on Party combat. It was actually a lot of fun what with all the exploding people. (It was also very short)
all levels of 3e have PvP; monsters with class levels are, effectively, players because they're built the same as players. though your average DM will not build an optimized monster because it'd do far too much damage for its worth.

so, yeah, PvP mechanics happen tons in 3e
PvP = Player versus Player

This is the name given for MMOs and the like because the player is the character in them and the only thing you see or interact with. With D&D a TTRPG, there should be NO PvP, and the ability for CvC means little.

CvC = Character versus Character

When there is PvP in D&D, it means the game has failed at the group level, the player level. The game cannot be blamed for this be it 3rd edition D&D, Rifts, Pathfinder, AD&D, C&C, etc when the game is a cooperative one.

MMOs are competitive games, unlike TTRPGs.

That is the big difference and where the PvP must be used correctly.

Any cooperative game that includes PvP means the players never had intent in playing the game, but just fighting between themselves.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Guyr Adamantine »

Derp.

Seriously.

Image

Now, back to the sewers.
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Post by Plebian »

shadzar wrote:
Plebian wrote:
Wrathzog wrote:Actually, D&D can definitely include PVP. My very last session of 3.5 D&D was filled with Party on Party combat. It was actually a lot of fun what with all the exploding people. (It was also very short)
all levels of 3e have PvP; monsters with class levels are, effectively, players because they're built the same as players. though your average DM will not build an optimized monster because it'd do far too much damage for its worth.

so, yeah, PvP mechanics happen tons in 3e
PvP = Player versus Player

This is the name given for MMOs and the like because the player is the character in them and the only thing you see or interact with. With D&D a TTRPG, there should be NO PvP, and the ability for CvC means little.

CvC = Character versus Character

When there is PvP in D&D, it means the game has failed at the group level, the player level. The game cannot be blamed for this be it 3rd edition D&D, Rifts, Pathfinder, AD&D, C&C, etc when the game is a cooperative one.

MMOs are competitive games, unlike TTRPGs.

That is the big difference and where the PvP must be used correctly.

Any cooperative game that includes PvP means the players never had intent in playing the game, but just fighting between themselves.
sorry, you're full of shit. the only times I've ever seen PvP in D&D (in games I've played in, at least), and by the way the term predates MMOs by quite a bit, is when RP led to it and away from it. this isn't a failing of the group in the slightest, and it definitely can lead to a better game.

it's great when your entire party is a bunch of carebears who hug their differences away but that's not necessarily fun RP for everyone; inter-party conflict can be enjoyable so long as the players themselves are mature about it.

by the way you didn't actually negate my argument that PvP mechanics happen for a shitload of encounters in 3e
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Post by shadzar »

No wonder Jack Chik went so far. People really cant distinguish between the player and the character.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by sabs »

OMG, next you're going to say that Chess isn't PVP because it's the pieces fighting.

God damn.
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Post by shadzar »

sabs wrote:OMG, next you're going to say that Chess isn't PVP because it's the pieces fighting.

God damn.
All competitive games are player versus player....
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Archmage »

If the DM makes the PCs fight enemy NPCs who have class levels in wizard, cleric, fighter, etc. do you consider that "PvP?"
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Post by Plebian »

Archmage wrote:If the DM makes the PCs fight enemy NPCs who have class levels in wizard, cleric, fighter, etc. do you consider that "PvP?"
of course not, that's players versus the DM.

using the same mechanics you'd use in PvP. I think I'll call them PvP mechanics
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Post by shadzar »

Archmage wrote:If the DM makes the PCs fight enemy NPCs who have class levels in wizard, cleric, fighter, etc. do you consider that "PvP?"
No, it isnt the players, just another group of "monsters".

Players are the humans sitting at the table playing, of which one is a DM, and the rest are the character players.

You are going a bit far in whatever you are saying.

If the DM presents an encounter with a mixed class NPC group, how could this be PvP when it doesnt involve players as part of that group?
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Archmage »

If DMs can use NPCs with PC classes as adversaries, don't PC classes need to be balanced against each other evenly?
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Post by Novembermike »

Archmage wrote:If the DM makes the PCs fight enemy NPCs who have class levels in wizard, cleric, fighter, etc. do you consider that "PvP?"
It quite clearly isn't PvP but does use PvP mechanics.
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Post by Plebian »

Archmage wrote:If DMs can use NPCs with PC classes as adversaries, don't PC classes need to be balanced against each other evenly?
yeah, they really do. I wish 3e had even tried this but, hey, 4e is fun stuff
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Post by Wrathzog »

If I remember how CR works, an NPC with the same number of character levels as you with level appropriate NPC Equipment (not as good as PC equipment) had a CR equal to your level. It didn't matter what class, all classes were rated equally by the CR system. Which implies balance, but that's about it.
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Archmage wrote:If DMs can use NPCs with PC classes as adversaries, don't PC classes need to be balanced against each other evenly?
No.

The player party wont be full of fighters only, and the NPC party wont be full of wizards.

The thing you have to understand is the PC party must be ready to take on all comers, and the NPC party wont be.

The main force a PC party faces isnt a opposing group of adventurers. Even if it was, it would be that group of adventurers is made the same as the PC party with regards to cooperating for tactics and such, so would automatically balance out. Wizards on both sides following the same rules, etc.

Take 4th edition. It tries to tell what monsters should be fought at what levels. This forces the DM and players into only having certain things in certain places. This is NOT the way to get the DM to understand proper encounter creation. This is jsut something that takes time for the DM to figure out for the group they are running the game for, as all groups will work differently.

Some people just wont make good DMs, if they cant figure out how to balance an encounter. The encounter would depend also on the threat level to the PC group. If you NPC was supposed to be hard, then they would be of higher level, or whatever, likewise to be easier, they might be at lower level.

DMs being asses, doesn't make for a flaw in the game, if they have a group of "optimized" wizards as an encounter. No NPC in his right mind would take only fighting spells to use. This would make them dead pretty quick, if they are doing things on their own. Either they try something they cannot and fail...like handling traps, or they send in others to do the task, and after the NPC's henchmen die too often, they revolt and kill the NPC.

When you remember the world is not jsut a board for a game, and these NPCs should have lives that are part of other lives, then there is a chance and risk for them too, and the things they do have consequences, and still must fit within the world and story.

There wouldn't be an encounter designed for the PC fighter, to solo against an NPC wizard of equal level. This is where the problem with viewing the characters in a vacuum comes in, because they shouldn't be working alone. So when you consider you have the rest of the PC adventurers there to help, the NPC party, even if EXACT simulacrums of the PCs, then it will be balanced as the group is made using the same rules.

This is a reason that if the PCs find another adventuring party, it isnt meant to be a combat encounter, but to further stress that the players group isnt the only one that may be in the world, but they are the important one for the game.

It is more a plot device than an encounter.

If the game was designed around the idea of a single character doing everything for himself, then balance between the classes, to make it fair for the players would be appropriate. Since the game is made so that a group of players are working together, it assume the players understand the game functions this way, and is designed around the PC group being balanced against the encounters it faces within a margin that allows for a threat level to reward XP, or an encounter that shouldnt take place as it would end in TPK, the hopeless actions; or an encounter that shouldnt take place because the PCs are just killing people that dont stand a chance against them.

Both wizard and fighter BBEGs would have "minions" The fighter would be a general of a large army or a king and have his army or militia as the rest of his group to oppose the PC group, and the wizard would have his constructs or slaves for his. So even that single BBEG v PC group fight, has been all along a BBEG group ala Team Evil.

Linear Guild v OOTS does a good job of showing how NPC vs PC adventuring groups would be balanced.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Plebian »

you do realize that Order of the Stick is basically 100% pure 3e satire, right

edit: well, 3e specifically for the edition jokes, D&D generally for all the silliness that usually happens in a game no matter the edition.
Last edited by Plebian on Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by shadzar »

Nale's group matched Elan's group class for class, level for level. Didnt seem like one had an unfair advantage over the other, and both were balanced...just how they played made the difference. Funny how you dont see Vaarsuvius dominating every fight so that Belkar and Roy have nothing to do.

Satire or not, it shows how a working party evolves and gets things done.

They turn Belkar loose on things when they need him, just like any war dog...wait he is a character not an animal right?

The point being, the group works together with their strengths. Nale's group on the other hand weren't working together, but as individuals who happened to be together, and each time, Nale's group failed.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Plebian »

yeah, except that everything in happens in OotS is not because there's a group of people working together vs. a group of individuals working towards a similar goal but because it suits the story that Burlew is developing. V not dominating the fights isn't a player holding back so people can have fun, it's the writer of the story not wanting a story about an elf wizard of questionable gender.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Shadzar.... your arguments don't make any sense, you're describing characters with the leadership feat when you describe your villans. Not some sort of super-secret to building baddies.

For my level 11 (previously 10) game, I'm going to be pitting the following against them, in no particular order, and in various sizes of NPCs (about even with the amount of players actually present during a session):

-level 11 Warforged (TGD rewrite by Koumei/Catharz) Soldier (Frank's)
-level X Redcap Samurai (soemthing like 9 Sam levels)
-level X Malenti Vampire Barbarian (I think it's 9 levels of Barb)
-Human, Child Necromancer, Wizard, Counduit, Stranger with the Burning Eyes Troll 'Wizard' (aka, a SwtBE in a Troll's body)
- Level 11 Aasimar Monk
-Level 11 Dwarf Barbarian w/ animal pet (via animal friendship ring
-Level 11 PoID Fighter w/ PoID Rogue cohort w/ PoID true fiend/rogue/conduit ward
-CR 11 Scoprionfolk Death Knight

Honestly, none of those characters are picked out by me, and are PCs from an other game I also run.

The redcap samurai is super beefy, what with having a racial weapon that is larger than they would otherwise use, and has a x4 crit modifier (which synergized very well with the player's class choice; the player had no inkling what they had done; they merely wanted to play a "mean old man" and "a samurai"; and the redcap looked the part when they saw it).

The "troll wizard" just has Magic Jar at will, and most likely will be killing some NPCs and causing mayhem in the encounter. Something that the PC did already in games I ran (honestly, a BBEG encounter that ends sooner is not anticlimatic, it's just plain good fun).

NPCs very well are creatures with Adventurer training, and can represent some of the most challenging, or easiest, encounters for players.

As for the notion of PCs facing challenges as a party. You'll have to excuse me while I laugh and laugh and laugh and LAUGH at that sort of bold faced bullshitting lie.

The amount of times that classic 2e adventures completely bone your high-faultin notions of "co-operative gameplay" where "PCs have to work together" is actually rather high, and especially at higher levels.

The fighter can very well be expected to face a Dread Wraith, on their own, in 2e modules and adventures. If an other PC decides to try and help, they get sent into their own prison of arbitrarium and have to fight their own Dread Wraith.

Adventures that forcibly split up the party are frankly more common than most people would like to think, and completely laughs at the notion that PCs can "hope" to remain in a group all the way through an adventure.

Heck, the most classic way to have a PC on their own is to have any sort of adventure where "send in the rogue first, to scout out" is a good idea. Which means that almost all adventures are going to split up the party to some degree.

Seriously, fuck you, and fuck your bullshit notions of what controls game balance. Your ideas never held true, do not hold true now, and never will hold true.

Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser aren't going to be working side by side all the time, and sometimes, well, sometimes they get split up, and can't rely on each other. Seriously, stick that in your pipe and smoke it before giving us the repeated lies and backtalk that you are so childishly prone to. The inspirational material for D&D assumes that the Fighter, Samurai, Assassin and War-Necromancer are going to be split up and will have to figure out shit without any help from the rest of the group.

To assume otherwise is complete and blind folly in the face of a towering mountain of evidence; while you can seriously never prove that the opposite is supposed to happen. Seeing as how official TSR 2e adventures were rabidly pro on splitting up the party and casting their fates to the vagrancies of their individual talents and powers.
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Post by shadzar »

Sadly still seems player cooperation is failing.

Tell me how is it that people are arguing the opposite sides of the same argument.?

-Wizards are too powerful! WAAAAH!
-Wizards are always slowing us down cause we have to let him mem spells before we can continue! WAAAAHMBULANCE!

And your 3rd edition example is quite lost on me, since I don't know it.

If the players aren't working together, then why are they playing D&D?
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Almaz »

shadzar wrote:Sadly still seems player cooperation is failing.

Tell me how is it that people are arguing the opposite sides of the same argument.?

-Wizards are too powerful! WAAAAH!
-Wizards are always slowing us down cause we have to let him mem spells before we can continue! WAAAAHMBULANCE!

And your 3rd edition example is quite lost on me, since I don't know it.

If the players aren't working together, then why are they playing D&D?
I realize you may not grok this, but honestly, people don't think wizards should necessarily be that much less powerful. Nor do they complain about wizards "slowing us down" but rather it is simply a fact of the game. When the person with the least amount of resource uses runs out of resource, people are going to stop there. No one is actually bothered by this since it takes only a minute to say "well you make camp for the night", it merely changes the narrative pace of the game. It is more a concern for referees, since it is impossible to give the fighters in the party a chance to shine except by creating extraordinarily contorted storylines wherein the wizard has run out of resources and the fighter is the only one who can do anything. Which is still unfun and boring, because now the wizard is the one being useless, and while "ha, now the shoe's on the other foot!" is cute for about one minute, it doesn't change the rest of the game.

It's just boring playing second-fiddle to anyone. I'm sure this has been linked already on this board, but the problem is illustrated in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

It's not really fun if anyone is playing BMX Bandit. It doesn't matter who is stuck with being BMX Bandit, it's not.

Pretty much any and all questions you have regarding fighter vs. wizard arguments can be resolved by going back and watching that video again.
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Post by Plebian »

bookmarking that video so very, very hard.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

And your 3rd edition example is quite lost on me, since I don't know it.
Second edition you lying sack of shit.

Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga, the Players are forced to fight "minor deaths" and if anyone interferes with an ongoing battle, they get the same situation as the person already in a life or death battle against an advanced wraith that can kill a level 10 character when both are locked in a closet made out of transparent abritrarium.

Never fucking say a word about how somehow D&D wants the players to work together, and actively encourages them to do so.

That idea is not important, and frankly, I don't care about that idea. It's restrictive and confining to character and storytelling. Remember, we want Heavy Metal, not some bullshit video game and it's emphasis on a mix of character classes that I don't care about.

The need for classes like clerics is a BS nouveau -gaming mentality that second edition fostered and that my original 2e gaming group kicked to the curb and never used. We were a planar warrior scouting out a new realm for their nation to conquer; a frail war-necromancer; a cunning assassin; a blustering, oafish, fighter and a dragon-slaying mammoth-riding samurai. Eventually we invested in an army to help soak attacks from enemies, but magical healing was something we honestly didn't give a shit about.

Get your nouveau 1980's bullshit gaming mentality about being all hugboxxy and carebears and rainbows scratch that, Care Bears are obviously Celestial Bears with built in Prismatic Sprays in ray format; way too heavy metal to be associated with BS ass-grabbing 80's 2e gaming notions.

Seriously, D&D is about a bunch of adventurers, ahem, mercenary thieves who get together for a big score, set in a futuristic post-apocalyptic fantasy pseudo medievalish setting. That's the core of the game.

Anything else tacked on top of that is merely your ideas and conflated opinions of what a bunch of adventurers out looking for a score 'could' look like.

The need for "co-operative" action is one that arises when characters are forced to start aiding each other, not the standard operating procedure for adventurers. Only very experienced and trust-worthy and trusting adventurers are capable of developing complex overarching group strategies for how to achieve overall goals and specific tactics for accomplishing specific tasks.
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