Include this in 5e or I will FUCK YOUR FACE

[shadzar]

yes vampires are based largely on Stoker, but also method to kill them are based on Rasputin as well.

vampires in D&D are like the tarrasque, and should be left up the to DM to tailor to their group what methods vampires can die by, sunlight, silver, whatever.

though in the game silver (cold steel/+1) is a VERY good mechinc for simplicities sake.

the same needs to allow for variants of the people want to play in, or people need to accept Vampire is a loose term, and the game uses its mythology as its base and just go gamist and accept the games vampires for what they are, or play VtM or whatever the White Wolf version currently is.

its a fucking undead, so let the cleric turn it and just run from it.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Okay, less hate-filled this time:

Why do you not want to have the generic vampire be fatally crippled by sunlight? I don't mean from a game-mechanics perspective, I mean from a storytelling perspective. Yes, having a vampire be non-to-modestly crippled by sunlight increases the number of stories you can tell. But that misses the point of having separate races in of itself.

See, the purpose of races is not just to increase the number of stories that you can tell but also to direct the number of stories that you can tell. Warforged are valuable playspace because precisely because you can't tell the story without specific mitigating circumstances about how they received a life-saving blood transfusion or enjoyed the cooking of the Legendary Chef. Fairies are valuable playspace precisely because you can't tell the story (again, without specific mitigating circumstances) of how they sat on a pegasus and impaled giants with a lance. Elves and dwarves and genasi and the vast majority of races even would do these things unthinkingly.

If you take away the sunlight weakness from vampire, sure, you can have the story about how the vampire accompanied the party to the market bazaar. Which is the same story you could tell with the centaur and the lizardman -- and the drow and the orc for that matter. But you also can't tell the story about how the vampire has to huddle up in his inn room with envy while the others enjoy the festival or has to desperately dart from the shade of one tree to the next back to the cave because he spent too long trying to get back to the cave.

So once you do that what's specifically left for your vampire? The stories you lost are damn hard to retell through some other vector but the stories you gain aren't exactly unique to the vampire. Yes, vampires will still presumably have a hunger for blood and flesh -- but that's not particularly a unique racial trait. Gnolls and orcs and shifters need (or could/should plausibly need) a steady diet of blood and flesh, too.

And yes, you could strike a compromise by having it be the backstory that PC vampires avoid the stronger effects of sunlight weaknesses. But without trait being the result of some sort of unique storytelling phlebtonium or event it becomes a non-limitation again; you might as well say that many drow are not blinded by sunlight or that many lizardmen are warm-blooded.

[virgil]

Saying vampires MUST burn in sunlight is very close to approving of the DMF archetype.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Saying vampires MUST burn in sunlight is very close to approving of the DMF archetype.

But I also think that vampires shouldn't be a low-level PC available option. They can exist in low-level playspace the same as zombie coyotes or black puddings.

I mean, I'm not against the DMF character and tactical archetype, either. I'm merely against it being available for PCs. I still support the existence of giant scorpions and T-rexes and GIANT FSCKING CRABS.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Lago, it's good of you to admit that you want vampires to follow your own idiosyncratic view of what they should be rather than any literary example.

I'm cool with vampires that burst into flame when the sun hits them, as long as you can get around the serious suspension of disbelief issues. You've got to realize, though, that the D&D result is masked knights in full plate armor running around in broad daylight. Any cowering in dark rooms is going to be due either to an extreme lack of clothing or a fear of being 'discovered'--and that can happen with any race that suffers extreme prejudice.

[Prak]

Edward's backstory
...goes off an becomes an Iron Age superhero seeking out and killing murderers, which allows him to drink human blood without moral compunction...

the surest sign that Stephanie Meyer is a hack scribbler is that this is backstory rather than the story in the books.

[Username17]

Why do you not want to have the generic vampire be fatally crippled by sunlight? I don't mean from a game-mechanics perspective, I mean from a storytelling perspective.

Because Blade 1 was fucking awesome and Blade 2 was fucking terrible. Sunlight is the worst disability that anything can have because it is 100% not inflicted by kung fu fighting. The light comes on and it moves at the speed of light, and there is arbitrarily either enough of it for the bad guy to die or it isn't. The protagonists don't really do anything to inflict sunlight on the enemies, it just happens by author fiat.

An enemy that dies in the sun is basically just the author admitting that they didn't know how to end something and then they just arbitrarily had it vanish when time ran out. That is completely without storytelling value. It isn't cool to watch, it isn't cool to describe, and it in no way involves any of the other characters or highlights any actions taken by anyone.

There is simply no way to make "catches fire in the sun" to be in any way interesting in any medium. It isn't even an interesting weakness for the protagonist to have, because anyone can simply "wear moar clothes" until the problem goes away. And that's actually worse than no disadvantage at all because you can't act in a helmet! If the protagonist wraps up so you can't see his face, the actor can't show facial expressions. That's why people don't wear helmets in movies about knights and space rangers.

Whether you're talking a visual medium, a verbal medium, or a written medium, sunlight burning is one of the shittiest ways to ruin your story. And in a cooperative storytelling medium it's like the shittiest of all, because the MC has control over whether the sun is shining or not in any particular time and place, so it's not something that the other players can really interact with in any way, shape, or form.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

You know, until you put up that rant, it never occurred to me how nonsensical the sunlight weakness is when out of the hands of single-author fiat.

And sunlight doesn't have the feel of Kryptonite when it's used as plot lubricant because sunlight is everywhere, but, if you're doing the story that being inside a house blocks you from sunlight you have to do the story that sufficient trenchcoats and helmets block you from sunlight. And at that point sunlight is no different than kryptonite. I mean, there's no reason for Blade and Van Helsing and Simon Belmont not to storm vampire strongholds as soon as dawn arrives to maximize their advantages -- but authors don't have them do that for... reasons.


I don't know. It's stupid, but I still think it's kind of cool. It's a Deus Ex Machina, but it's a kind of Deus Ex Machina that gives us the awesome graphical effects and artwork of Stardust Crusaders and Blade. Or maybe I just like ridiculous urban fantasy ultraviolence too much.

[Foxwarrior]

I'm inclined to be in favor of sunlight explosions from a strategic perspective. Such a massive, yet situational, weakness encourages thinking about how to kill the Count by destroying the roof instead of by attacking him. Letting full plate work as a solution is pretty terrible though, because then you still have to attack his armor, with all the flaws of whatever barely tested sundering rules the game possesses.

If the DM has characters blowing open the ceiling and drawing the curtains occasionally, then so long as there's a delay on the vampiric explosion, it could make for some interesting tactical combats.

As a core race, though, exploding in sunlight is a bit much. Cats without telekinesis, wandering souls that possess people, and intelligent items can all accompany the party more or less wherever they go. As soon as you add an exploding vampire to the party, however, suddenly the party has to be nocturnal.

[DSMatticus]

If you take away the sunlight weakness from vampire, sure, you can have the story about how the vampire accompanied the party to the market bazaar. Which is the same story you could tell with the centaur and the lizardman -- and the drow and the orc for that matter. But you also can't tell the story about how the vampire has to huddle up in his inn room with envy while the others enjoy the festival or has to desperately dart from the shade of one tree to the next back to the cave because he spent too long trying to get back to the cave.

The example about the sunlight-immune vampire is a story about the party doing something. The example about the sunlight-exploding vampire is a story about an individual doing something. This is a TTRPG. Do I really need to say any more than that? Besides, you can tell those stories without sunlight explosions and with sunlight weakness. If your vampire is uncomfortable/feels minor pain in sunlight, then he's not going to be out in the festival anyway because it'll be a constant migraine for him. And he's going to spend as much time in the shade as possible. But he can stomach it when he has to, which means he can do the things the party is doing.

So once you do that what's specifically left for your vampire?

Being Dracula. Or Hellsing's Alucard. What is your problem with this? Your love of sunlight explosions is totally incomprehensible to me and pretty inconsistent. Sunlight explosions are useful for a particular type of story, sort of like V;tM, where vampires are supposed to be totally incapable of being functional members of society yet still have to live among society. It puts up a barrier that keeps them from connecting to the human world like a normal human being, and that leads to a particular type of story that can be interesting. But it's not the only type of vampire story you can tell.

[JonSetanta]

It may not have been called 'Emo,' but young men wearing a lot of black and wallowing in sadness goes back to at least Elizabethan times.

I believe it was referred to as "a malaise"

[wotmaniac]

[...] a particular type of story, sort of like V;tM, where vampires are supposed to be totally incapable of being functional members of society yet still have to live among society. It puts up a barrier that keeps them from connecting to the human world like a normal human being, and that leads to a particular type of story that can be interesting. But it's not the only type of vampire story you can tell.

I always thought that was, at least in part, the point of vampires.
Just filing off the serial #s so that you can simply interchange appearance seems a little over-done at this point.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Being Dracula. Or Hellsing's Alucard. What is your problem with this?

Alucard is a powerful sorcerer. The fact that he is a vampire is basically irrelevant; the powers that he manifests are shocking and incomprehensible to normal vampires.

Dracula is still good, though.

[DSMatticus]

Alucard is a powerful sorcerer. The fact that he is a vampire is basically irrelevant; the powers that he manifests are shocking and incomprehensible to normal vampires.

That's a strange way to think of it. In the context of the setting, he's an elder vampire and he spends a lot of time fighting wannabes and lesser supernatural creatures, so he's always 'beyond the realm of their experience.' But his phlebtonium source is still being a vampire and his abilities have obvious thematic origins with old-school vampires, just kicked up a notch. Alucard's "I'm blood" invulnerability is an obvious modification of the classic vampire ability to turn into all sorts of intangible substances to render themself invincible, and that dates all the way back to Dracula turning into dust. Alucard's demon dog shadow thing? Dracula turned into a bigass black dog all the time. The scale is wildly different, but it's easy to see that one's an evolution of the other where the power scale of the setting is just turned up a few notches.

Just filing off the serial #s so that you can simply interchange appearance seems a little over-done at this point.

Bah! How many times do I have to point out the original vampire, Dracula? There was absolutely nothing stopping him from being a functional member of society other than a powertrip caused by being a superhuman immortal. You cannot use overdone in a way that calls Dracula outdated the instant it was released.

[wotmaniac]

Bah! How many times do I have to point out the original vampire, Dracula? There was absolutely nothing stopping him from being a functional member of society other than a powertrip caused by being a superhuman immortal. You cannot use overdone in a way that calls Dracula outdated the instant it was released.

Touche.

[Prak]

In fact, participating in normal society was seriously a thing Dracula did. He literally dressed up, and went out in broad daylight

[Neurosis]

"Psychos don't explode when sunlight hits them, I don't care how crazy they are."

[Foxwarrior]

Well, if by "explode", you mean "explode with rage", then you're overgeneralizing.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Alucard is a powerful sorcerer. The fact that he is a vampire is basically irrelevant; the powers that he manifests are shocking and incomprehensible to normal vampires.

That's a strange way to think of it. In the context of the setting, he's an elder vampire and he spends a lot of time fighting wannabes and lesser supernatural creatures, so he's always 'beyond the realm of their experience.' But his phlebtonium source is still being a vampire and his abilities have obvious thematic origins with old-school vampires, just kicked up a notch. Alucard's "I'm blood" invulnerability is an obvious modification of the classic vampire ability to turn into all sorts of intangible substances to render themself invincible, and that dates all the way back to Dracula turning into dust. Alucard's demon dog shadow thing? Dracula turned into a bigass black dog all the time. The scale is wildly different, but it's easy to see that one's an evolution of the other where the power scale of the setting is just turned up a few notches.

Alucard doesn't behave like other vampires in the series, period. He is a terrible model for any kind of character in a game. He doesn't just lack vampire weaknesses (other vampires in the series do explode in sunlight); he has no weaknesses whatsoever. His primary abilities are shooting people and summoning demons whose souls he has eaten. Sure, he can turn people into vampires, but so can a number of non-vampires in the series. Alucard being a vampire is a matter of aesthetics only.

[Archmage]

Alucard doesn't behave like other vampires in the series, period. He is a terrible model for any kind of character in a game. He doesn't just lack vampire weaknesses (other vampires in the series do explode in sunlight); he has no weaknesses whatsoever.

For what it's worth, he takes damage quite rapidly in running water in Symphony of the Night.

[Prak]

Alucard is a powerful sorcerer. The fact that he is a vampire is basically irrelevant; the powers that he manifests are shocking and incomprehensible to normal vampires.

That's a strange way to think of it. In the context of the setting, he's an elder vampire and he spends a lot of time fighting wannabes and lesser supernatural creatures, so he's always 'beyond the realm of their experience.' But his phlebtonium source is still being a vampire and his abilities have obvious thematic origins with old-school vampires, just kicked up a notch. Alucard's "I'm blood" invulnerability is an obvious modification of the classic vampire ability to turn into all sorts of intangible substances to render themself invincible, and that dates all the way back to Dracula turning into dust. Alucard's demon dog shadow thing? Dracula turned into a bigass black dog all the time. The scale is wildly different, but it's easy to see that one's an evolution of the other where the power scale of the setting is just turned up a few notches.

Alucard doesn't behave like other vampires in the series, period. He is a terrible model for any kind of character in a game. He doesn't just lack vampire weaknesses (other vampires in the series do explode in sunlight); he has no weaknesses whatsoever. His primary abilities are shooting people and summoning demons whose souls he has eaten. Sure, he can turn people into vampires, but so can a number of non-vampires in the series. Alucard being a vampire is a matter of aesthetics only.

That's kind of like saying that Kain is a terible model for vampires in the Legacies thereof, or The Master in Buffy, or Viktor in Underworld. The point is that elder vampires break the rules. Hell, I'd be perfectly fine with a game that said "At low levels, a vampire is burned by sunlight. By taking the Vampire Elder PrC, they can overcome this weakness." I mean, it'd kind of suck, but it at least makes a kind of sense. Vampires have weaknesses. If they're old/badass enough, they over come them. Simple enough.

[Avoraciopoctules]

My favorite fictional vampire was a scheming manipulator on a planet cursed to perpetual daytime. It was integral to the story that sunlight was something that you had to go out of your way to escape, since there were like 3 suns (2 artificial) covering overlapping areas.

The vampire protagonist sets himself up as the leader of a posse of knights on a quest to defeat Boss Evil, and since he's keeping them from stabbing him with a magical illusion, he needs to be very careful about how he goes about getting blood. As they make their way further into Evil Land, his options for feeding get slimmer and slimmer, and he struggles to figure out who on his team to target and when. This story is definitely a vampire story, and it would not work at all if sunlight were a death sentence.

[Almaz]

I prefer vampires who are strongly encouraged but not required to be nocturnal. The image of vampires sweeping across moonlit fiields, but not doing so (at least as brazenly) in the daylight, is one we want to keep. However, this can be phrased in ways that do not require the vampire to be removed from the party every time the sun rises. Lethargy during daytime or powers being weakened during the day, are possible ways to discourage a vampire from dancing around in the middle of the sun's accursed glare, while not making it impossible for them to party with the group. Ultimately a vampire, if it gets to be playable, cannot explode into flames and die the moment sunlight touches them, or the referee has one easy excuse to deny all vampires all the time. Sunlight has to be something they can manage, even if they do prefer to keep in shade.

[Username17]

You know, until you put up that rant, it never occurred to me how nonsensical the sunlight weakness is when out of the hands of single-author fiat.

I don't know. It's stupid, but I still think it's kind of cool.

Go watch Blade. Then watch Blade II. You will notice that Blade II is a deeply unsatisfying movie even though Blade is fucking awesome. The reason that Blade II is such a shit fest is the same reason that Matrix II is a bad movie: the ultraviolence does not in any way advance the plot.

The characters have super kung fu and swords and giant hammers and whatever the fuck and none of that means anything. Because the enemy super vampires are in no way killed by any of that shit, they are killed by light. You know: author fiat. A comparable mistake was made in Matrix 2 where absolutely none of the combats resolved anything at all, and the main character accomplished literally every single thing he ever accomplished by flying around - something he could have just as easily done without throwing a single punch at a single enemy.

Daylight works in stories like Pitch Black, and Shadow of the Vampire because the protagonists are supposed to be fucking powerless. It works in Gremlins because it is a comedy. It doesn't work, and can't work in action fiction. Because enemies exploding because light touches them is the most unheroic thing that it is possible to imagine.

-Username17

[tussock]

There is simply no way to make "catches fire in the sun" to be in any way interesting in any medium.

Sure there is. It's a classic. You go looking for the Vampires setting off from home base at first light but their servants and some heavy-ass doors, tricks, and traps slow you down and then there's a maze and oh, SHIT! it's about to get dark again.

Time pressure. Pretty soon that Vampire's going back to being annoyingly invulnerable and also very annoyed at what you've been doing to his house.

Then you do it the other way. It's midsummer, because nobody hunts Vamps in winter, so you get to run and hide from the terrible monster for a few hours and try to wait for first light. Hiding, splitting up, as the wolves and bats are summoned to track you down, and the fog rolls in off the moors.


It's not a story about punching Vampires, but it's a story; ratcheting the tension up and such, arguments about calling it off early, tension, ....