Monte Cook leaving 5E

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I have a friend who calls shadowrun chargen porn. He has never actually played.

Why not? Porn is fun!

Maybe Whipstitch meant that he never did anything after chargen.

Well, hopefully he washed his hands.

[Whipstitch]

Yep. I have actually ran a couple of his sheets as prime runners because they were pretty decent.

[infected slut princess]

DO you enjoy speculative gossip? I bring speculative gossip:

Monte Cook ditched 5e and we laughed. He has posted some stuff since then on his personal blog and I will engage in some insightful interpretation of these posts. I am basically psychic so you can take for granted I know what I'm taking about.

------

You may recall that when Monte ditched, he singled out Bruce Cordell and Rob Schwalb as decent dudes to work with. Whatever. Some people read some meaning into the fact taht MIKE MEARLS was not mentioned in that post.

Ok, first you have to check this out:

http://montecook.livejournal.com/251693.html

Praise for one person is not criticism for another. Singling out one does not automatically imply exclusion of another.

To be certain, I enjoyed much of my time working with everyone who's been involved with the new edition of D&D: Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford, Bruce Cordell, Rob Schwalb, Miranda Horner, Tom LaPille, Rodney Thomson, Greg Bilsland, Matt Sernett, Rich Baker, James Wyatt, and everyone else. The WotC RPG R&D department is full of talent.

Emphasis mine.

My interpretation: "Because I didn't even mention Mike Mearls before, and now I am mentioning Mike Mearls FIRST in my list of 'people who i seriously didn't mind working with that much, seriously", it means I definitely think Mike Mearls is a fucking loser but I'm too polite to say so. Oh yeah, when I said WotC RPG R&D division is full of talent, I basically just lied. Even a shitty designer like me knows WotC is full of hacks. Except Bruce Cordell because he's like my friend and we eat chicken wings together sometimes."

Now check this out:
http://montecook.livejournal.com/252171.html

-- a rather pedestrian and trivial commentary on why it is important for designers to listen to the players, no matter how awesome the designer thinks his ideas are.

Which means, ultimately, that a good game's design starts with an examination of what players want. When I started designing games professionally 25 years ago, that information was difficult to get. Now, it's much easier. (I hesitate to say that it's easy, but the challenges of doing so are probably best left to another post as well). Designers come up with interesting ideas for mechanics all the time, but if they don't address the needs of the players, what's the point?

Hmm... well, I know what you're thinking. He knows that too:

EDIT: This post is one of many I'll be posting about my game design philosophy (a sort of informal "series" I started many weeks ago) and is not meant to be an indictment on anyone else's approach, philosophy, or plans. It's also not a secret revelation of any kind of behind the scenes drama or whatever. that this article has NOTHING to do with 5e or anything.

My interpretation: "Oh yeah, this has NOTHING to do with whats going on at WotC with 5e, no... NOTHING AT ALL. wink wink nudge nudge. Anyway, Mike Mearls has had people blow him for so long he doesn't even realize that his ideas suck and all the non-4rries DONT WANT 5e to be like 4e, BECAUSE MOST D&D GAMERS THINK 4E BLOWS COCK BY THE BARREL. And we know from evidence such as...

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=52972

...that Mike Mearls thinks 4e is the pinnacle of game design and the world just wasn't ready for such an awesomely 'balanced' game, which is pretty much 100% out of touch with reality."

K's response, from that thread, is classic of course:

When they say people don't like 4e because it's too balanced, I feel like it's someone saying "women don't like me because my dick is too big and I'm too rich and handsome."

[CapnTthePirateG]

I sense much psychic talent in you, infected slut princess.

I suspect the designers ignored some big thing in the playtest that people hated and Monte wanted to change, but they wouldn't and that's why he quit.

[Orion]

It's gladdening to know my coinage has caught on so well that even the trolls use it.

[shadzar]

Now check this out:
http://montecook.livejournal.com/252171.html

-- a rather pedestrian and trivial commentary on why it is important for designers to listen to the players, no matter how awesome the designer thinks his ideas are.

Which means, ultimately, that a good game's design starts with an examination of what players want. When I started designing games professionally 25 years ago, that information was difficult to get. Now, it's much easier. (I hesitate to say that it's easy, but the challenges of doing so are probably best left to another post as well). Designers come up with interesting ideas for mechanics all the time, but if they don't address the needs of the players, what's the point?

and you can do like 4th edition and choose the WRONG people to listen to.

the idea behind it that the players are more important than the bean-counters and suits, is very important though.

the mistake often made is listening to people that dont even like your product, and trying to change it so they WILL like it. why not just make a product for them rather than alter your product so it is ONLY for them?

[Lago PARANOIA]

So. I predicted three years ago that 4E D&D would go down in flames Spring 2012 and I was totally right.

Feeling drunk off of my success, I am making a whole new set of predictions:

[*] Mike Mearls avoids the initial round of yearly layoffs due to his smooth-talkingness. Nonetheless the product goes down in flames by the summer of 2014. Mike Mearls and his number two Bruce Cordell becomes a pariah in the industry having helmed two successful failures. Pathfailure probably hires him sometime in the future because once you've hired SF fucking R you've proofed/prooved/proved yourself a complicated welfare organization for washed-up douchebags and hacks. Expect to see them to hire Matt Ward, Strazyncski, and Brannon Braga soon.

[*] Rather than starting on Sixth Edition, Hasbro shelves the IP entirely for awhile. This allows Pathfailure to become the semi-official face of D&D for the intervening period.

[*] 5E D&D doesn't even try to get its virtual support off of the ground. Not that they won't make a token effort, but it'll be clearly vaporware by the end of the year except for maybe a barely functional version of the 5E character builder that will look stupid and chintzy because of 5E's greater emphasis on magical tea party.

[*] MtG continues posting years of success. Probably also gets a new X360 or PS3/Vita videro jame. There is some serious talk, and not just here, of the D&D and MtG divisions permanently merging with D&D becoming the permanent bitch of MtG.

[*] 5E D&D continues to take heavy artistic influences from World of Warcraft, because Diablo 3 isn't going to be out as long and most of the same clowns that worked on 4E D&D are still around.

[*] Their new fair-use product will be slightly less restrictive than GSL but still moreso than the SRD. No real third party settings come out.

[*] Forgotten Realms, Ninter Vale, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance die a quiet death and never ever get resurrected. So there's a bright side, at least, along with Mike Mearls being permanently known among the non-fanboys as a self-aggrandizing fuckup.

[*] 5E D&D permanently fractures the fanbase. 2E grognards get the blame for the 5E D&D fiasco since appealing to these douchnozzles seems to be what's fucking the game up.

[*] Mike Mearls tries to throw a hail Mary to save his job, taking 5E in a weird and desperate direction. Probably by turning D&D into some weird board game / CCG hybrid like DragonStrike or Culdcept.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Where else are they talking of combining MtG and D&D? Not that I mind, because the MtG designers are far more competent than the idiots we have now, but I've never heard this before.

Are we going to do an Analysis of Failed Design on Thursday? I feel we should if we can get it past that stupid NDA.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I didn't say that there was any plans to do this so much that the most likely non-black swan alternative to Hasbro shelving D&D for an indefinite amount of time is making D&D a permanent bitch of the MtG division.

[CapnTthePirateG]

You did say there was serious talk, and not just here. So where else?

[Orion]

He was describing hypothetical future events using vivid present construction. He is saying that after 5E crashes and burns, there WILL BE serious talks within the company about chaining D&D to Magic, although they may well not go through with it.

Meanwhile: I have no idea why you think FR would die.

[K]

I'm pretty sure 5e DnD is going to fracture the base completely. The modular system means that people are no longer even going to know what game they are playing when they agree to sit down and play DnD, and I can't see a better way to keep people from wanting to play.

I expect people are just going to keep playing 3.X because at least you'll know what you are in for.

[OgreBattle]

The modular system means that people are no longer even going to know what game they are playing when they agree to sit down and play DnD

Isn't that how AD&D was?

Heck, don't you guys spend a lot of time complaining that 3e players don't realize what they're playing so they complain about overpowered monks and Paizo takes their money?

[Lokathor]

OgreBattle, There's sadly very little wrong with such an assessment.

[Username17]

The modular system means that people are no longer even going to know what game they are playing when they agree to sit down and play DnD

Isn't that how AD&D was?

Yes. And it caused the proliferation of new game systems in protest/necessity. Remember: Palladium is just an AD&D hack, which means that people who play RIFTS are actually a direct result of AD&D not being able to give people a coherent set of rules.

The 3e OGL actually reforged a thoroughly fractured gaming community into a single set of core rules. 4e shattered that. 5e is going to kill it all the way.

-Username17

[hogarth]

The modular system means that people are no longer even going to know what game they are playing when they agree to sit down and play DnD

Isn't that how AD&D was?

Maybe 2E was with its dozens of splatbooks, but 1E AD&D was fairly standard in my experience.

[shadzar]

The modular system means that people are no longer even going to know what game they are playing when they agree to sit down and play DnD

Isn't that how AD&D was?

Yes. And it caused the proliferation of new game systems in protest/necessity. Remember: Palladium is just an AD&D hack, which means that people who play RIFTS are actually a direct result of AD&D not being able to give people a coherent set of rules.

The 3e OGL actually reforged a thoroughly fractured gaming community into a single set of core rules. 4e shattered that. 5e is going to kill it all the way.

-Username17

Yes because Rahu men and Glitterboys is exactly what people wanted from sword and sorcery. Likewise Old West shoot-em ups is what people wanted from sword and sorcery.

you fail to grasp how a singular genre didnt fit all people who wanted to game, and attribute that falsely to the system itself.

The modular system means that people are no longer even going to know what game they are playing when they agree to sit down and play DnD

Isn't that how AD&D was?

Maybe 2E was with its dozens of splatbooks, but 1E AD&D was fairly standard in my experience.

you realize all those splatbooks are primarily 1e material from The Dragon right?

2e, just like 1e, was 3 books. 2e had the settings 1e did, and then some, and printed compilations of best-of from The Dragon and those massive numbers of settings.

the core of 1e was MUCH larger than 2e.

PHB
DMG
MM
MM2
Deities and Demigods
Wilderness Survival Guide
Dungeoneers Survival Guide
Manual of the Planes
Unearthed Arcana

PHB
DMG
Monterous Manual
Legends and lore
Tome of Magic

the books removed form 2e were Manual of the Planes, WSG, and DSG

so if you look at reality, 2e with its 3 core books, was pretty much the same as 1e with its 4 core books. the amount of supplements you use, is your own doing.

so K is partially right in terms of the modular system, IF all those crazy as components are in core. but if placed into things like "The Complete Handbook" series of brown splatbooks, they can more easily be managed.

and K is wrong in that if you only play with the core, 3 or 4 books, the game is stable from group to group, with only minor changes in regards to what is used. things that were optional like Proficiencies in both editions, etc.

[ScottS]

[*] 5E D&D doesn't even try to get its virtual support off of the ground. Not that they won't make a token effort, but it'll be clearly vaporware by the end of the year except for maybe a barely functional version of the 5E character builder that will look stupid and chintzy because of 5E's greater emphasis on magical tea party.

Having a working VTT before launch this time is supposedly one of the meta-reasons for restarting the edition cycle/Wheel of Pain. (I didn't use the beta key someone gave me, so I have no clue how functional it is at the moment, but there apparently is a "beta" so yeah.)

[*] Mike Mearls tries to throw a hail Mary to save his job, taking 5E in a weird and desperate direction. Probably by turning D&D into some weird board game / CCG hybrid like DragonStrike or Culdcept.

Just going to add here that the boardgame versions of 4e they put out (Castle Ravenloft etc.) were actually better than the RPG; "everything being a power" worked in the lower-expectations context of a horseshit boardgame, and you were actually pressured to a degree you almost never saw in 4e (partially through "rocks fall, everyone takes 1 damage" events but also because fights weren't broken up into encounters and you had infinispawning mobs).

[Lago PARANOIA]

Meanwhile: I have no idea why you think FR would die.

It wouldn't be a fast death, as it would survive on the inertia of novels, but it would be a death. FR's claim to fame as a campaign setting lies on the fact that it's 'better' than all other campaign settings due to detail, continuity, and marginally better writing. If 6E gets shelved or taken over by someone else there will be little interest in reviving the setting. In the latter case it'll be because someone else wants to write their own brand new shiny setting.

The only exceptions I would see is that if 6E had a very generous OGL/SRD (I'm talking 3rd Edition generous) and the writers pulled their heads out of their asses or if the company that picked up the D&D label decided to hitch their wagon to FR and make that the default setting. Which is possible, just, not what I'm predicting.

Having a working VTT before launch this time is supposedly one of the meta-reasons for restarting the edition cycle/Wheel of Pain. (I didn't use the beta key someone gave me, so I have no clue how functional it is at the moment, but there apparently is a "beta" so yeah.)

Yes, and on the DDI board there are constant complaints about bugs and wanting support. Now I think you could make a very strong argument that the people who are making VT are all 'fuck it' towards the 4E fans and actually do plan to have something come out. Just not for them. So 4E people get permanently shafted with an incomplete product. And D&D did hire a visual arts studio, so it's not just 'ha ha we didn't even try vaporware'.

But what makes me think that it's going to be vaporware is that unless Mike Mearls is snowing the fanbase by making people think he's still considering big rules changes but actually already has a finished product (actually finished, not IH finished) -- improbable but not impossible -- 5E D&D is not going to be fully hammered out enough to integrate fully with a VT in time for its release. This is not enough to make the VT vaporware but 5E is going to crash and burn so fucking quickly that there won't be any interest in taking it from late beta to gold.

The only way VT will be finished is if they count a pathetic 5E D&D-specific Maptools clone as finished. No one will be impressed. I mean, did you see that kickass fully integrated VT that 4E D&D was previewing in the Monster Manual? Like, with the character viewer and character editor and all? That shit was money and no one is going to be satisfied with anything lamer than that.

[ishy]

You did say there was serious talk, and not just here. So where else?

Well they did say this about 6 months ago, when someone asked about a MTG & DND crossover

Back in 1997, when Wizards of the Coast acquired TSR, we took a long look at the idea of D&D and M:tG crossovers. We even did some early concept work. Ultimately we chose not to pursue crossover products. Basically, we feel that D&D and Magic: the Gathering are two different experiences aimed at different audiences. We want to be careful not to make either game into something that it isn’t in an attempt to increase its appeal in the other category—if adding trappings of Magic to a D&D setting impinged on the “D&Dness” of that setting, or vice versa, it would just dilute what each brand does best. If our thinking on that changes or if we find an opportunity to explore a crossover, you’ll be the first to know. After us, of course.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I mean, shit, THIS is what people, including myself, want out of the game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr7lUMRO3R8
As disappointed as I am in 4th Edition D&D, if they had something like this out I'd probably still be playing it despite the massive fuckings over I've had from D&D that made me swear never to buy another 4E D&D product.

But instead, this is what people actually have:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5II83LuAElg
I mean, it's not awful or anything, but it's only moderately better than MapTools, which is free, and it's certainly doesn't whip the pants off of Fantasy Grounds. I am willing to concede that it's the best Virtual Battlemat out of all of the products because of the UI, but seriously, we were promised that exceedingly kickass 2008 Virtual Tabletop. I want that.

[erik]

You did say there was serious talk, and not just here. So where else?

It was a prediction. Like, of the fuuuuuuuture.

I am making a whole new set of predictions:

[CapnTthePirateG]

Ah. I read it as "this is my prediction based on the real-world evidence that people are talking about..." my bad.

[erik]

I mean, shit, THIS is what people, including myself, want out of the game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr7lUMRO3R8
As disappointed as I am in 4th Edition D&D, if they had something like this out I'd probably still be playing it despite the massive fuckings over I've had from D&D that made me swear never to buy another 4E D&D product.

Most of that video is playing pretty princess dress-up with the Fighter "Crackwhore." I don't think that is what I want out of the game.

The map editor looked pretty sad and I was given an instant headache when he mentioned the tiles were flippable like the physical cards... why the fuck are digital images flippable when you could simply have a catalog of tiles to select.

... okay, it looks more impressive with part 2 or 3 (except the person filming totally failed). I'd probably start there and skip Crackwhore.

My favorite parts of the first video were a few comments.

Lies!

Velocinox 1 year ago

How do you get to the actual gaming on the website? I've bought it and it's shit, i can't do anything.

DieChavScum 3 years ago

[Seerow]

I hadnt seen that tabletop before. Why on earth does it make the player enter everything manually rather than importing the character from the character builder?