League Of Losers

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri May 24, 2013 6:52 pm

Nautilus does solid damage on not-awful CDs and his solo lane scaling is good because he scales so hard off levels (massive CD decreases and base damage scaling), CDR, AP, and AS. Naut is a good solo laner, just because he doesn't need a lot of gold to fulfill his role doesn't mean he's a poor solo lane choice.

His shield is a .4 AP ratio AoE per hit (it refreshes itself without disrupting the timer, so it's a tiny bit lower once you surpass 1 attack/second). His Q has a .75 AP ratio, and his big ol AoE E has a .5 ratio but is more likely to have a .75 ratio (and almost never 1 AP ratio). His ult has a .4 AP ratio on its AoE and .8 AP ratio on its main target.

If you put him mid he isn't a straight up AP carry, he's more like a Cho mid. You build him like an AP tank (though with Naut you get a Wit's End as well most of the time). Slap a Mog's, Wit's, and any armor item and you're good to go as far as tanking is concerned, letting you build whatever else you want for damage.

His primary weakness is his extreme early game when he's a melee farmer with just awful dueling capabilities, but once you hit 5 you just blow up waves and roam.

His mid is better than his top against real bruisers (and it makes his incredible roam more useful). He just has good harass against Singed because he can proc passive outside of Singed's range then activate shield for another free hit. He basically trades for free starting at level 1, which is a big deal. He gets ruined by any bruiser who can all-in early game, but hey, everybody has counters.

If your team needs a tanky initiator/peeler you can't go wrong with Nautilus.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Fri May 24, 2013 10:13 pm

Everything you say there makes sense and I think I get it -- thanks. I think I overvalued solo lane gold but forgot about solo lane leveling, which is also a lot stronger than the jungle.

If you were to use a Nautilus in a lane though, who would you pick for jungle? Guess it sort of depends on your other solo laner though.

For damage one can build a Liandry's, which scales completely independently of how much AP you have. I've actually wanted to do this on jungle Cho/Nautilus as a final item, but of course I've never had the game go that far (and one time on Cho where it almost did I built an abyssal scepter instead to help out our mostly-AP composition).

edit: I just remember one game I played where the enemy team had a Nautilus mid that did get quite an early lead, but we managed to stall the game out and eventually he had some trouble because their damage had somewhat suffered. I'm sure that would probably be remedied fine by proper picks though, like a hypercarry bot or an AP jungle. Twitch or Vayne would probably do great. Or I imagine if the players were all better, they could have pushed their advantage and ended the game a lot earlier, shutting out our chance to come back. I dunno though, I'm not really very good at this game. What kind of picks would you choose to go with a solo lane Nautilus?

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Sat May 25, 2013 3:52 am

Solo lane Nautilus is generally picked because your team went full retard on other picks, like an assassin jungle and squishy mid/top.

He's not an optimal pick for a solo lane (except for against Singed and some melee mids, where he can shut them down) unless your team is very divey. If you have a heavy diving team (think Leona support, Naut mid, Vi jungle, Akali top) he's a great choice because he's so disruptive the other team will be incapable of focusing someone down because they lose someone important.

He doesn't scale super hard, so he needs a team that either capitalizes off his massive advantage mid game (CC is strongest then, before they can itemize against it) or abuses his diving/peel potential.

He does scale well, but it's not a late game terror scaling because he's shut down by breaking his shield.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:28 pm

So...double post and all but still.

I've been playing normals as top lane, and I think Irelia might still be op. It could be that I'm playing a bit below the level I'm used to, but she still has ridiculous sustain and a crazy all-in at 6. I get that top is gay and usually just a game of whoever hits a certain level first wins, but is Irelia still viable for it? She can build full tank after Wit's, and that's worth something...

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:23 pm

She's really item-dependent and feels very swingy to me. If their jungler camps top and yours doesn't or your enemy top lane goes balls deep and kills you, then the lane isn't looking good for you.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:05 am

There's nothing I like more than having the enemy jungler + top dive me when I'm playing Irelia.

For a while I pretty much exclusively played Irelia top. She's awesome, but haven't really touched her since the S3 thing came around. Probably better than she was at the start of S3 though thanks to the new Blade of the Ruined King.

Extremely item dependent champion.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:35 pm

I've never played her, nor do I see her often these days, but she seems like she'd be a viable jungler? Hiten Style would help a lot with early clear, I'd think, and Bladesurge+Equilibrium Strike would probably make for some effective ganks.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:11 am

Irelia is really, really bad in the jungle. First off, her healing, although present, is not exceptional compared to her peers. Level 1 Hiten style heals 5 per hit passively or 10 during the active. Xin Zhao heals 26 every 3 strikes with rank 1 battle cry, for 8+ per hit permanently. Warwick gets 3/6/9 health per attack at level 1. Nasus starts with 14% lifesteal which is also around 10 health per swing. She's also a punishingly slow jungler. Hiten Style is true damage, which is great against champions but mediocre against monsters. At rank 1 it gives 15 damage per hit for 6 seconds, or around 60 damage total to a single target. BY Comparison, Warwick can start with Hunter's Call which is 40% attack speed for 10 seconds, which is about 2.5 autoattacks, which is likely to be close to 300 damage. And Warwick is already considered a slow jungler.

Also, her ganks are mediocre because she doesn't have any mobility abilities that function before she gets in range of an enemy, and while she can leapfrog off of enemy minions it's really hard to coordinate it from the jungle.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:15 am

Her CC is ridiculously awkward for ganking lanes. If you're going to take a jungler with terrible CC, at least take one who can do more damage -- like Nocturne.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:02 am

Don't get me wrong though, her CC is god damn amazing in a lane and for diving. It's just awful for ganks.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:20 pm

T-t-triple post!!!

Is Vi still viable after her nerfs + the nerfs to Spirit of the Elder Lizard (I think another one of which is forthcoming in the next patch)? She's kinda dropped off the map.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:02 pm

Vi is definitely still viable, she just needs a comp that can follow up on her initiate (or pick her against an enemy "protect the carry" comp). She's still a carry jungler that can carry reliably, but her early dueling is kind of shit until you hit 4 and the recent rise of Nocturne and strong early jungle picks (people realized yet again that Amumu is bad if you can duel) is a little bit of a problem for her. She's good early and all, she just isn't Lee Sin good.

Even if they nerf spirit of the elder lizard again you can just hop right into building razor (and even upgrading to lantern) on her. If you give her a razor she's fucking ridiculous when it comes to taking dragon, as her E is an auto reset and she already does % health damage. Vi can solo dragon at 4 if you have a razor, some pots, your buffs, and a pink to be safe (walk in, auto twice before it hits you, then use E -> auto -> E -> auto -> charged Q -> auto -> E -> smite and it should die unless you're terminally unlucky with razor). The only other champs who can reliably take dragon solo that early are Fiddle (needs a blue pot for it) and Trundle.

Lizard elder will still be a good item on Vi even if it gets nerfed again, but you probably won't feel like you're missing out for going with a lantern or razor instead. I think you'll still want it almost every game, but it won't be a MUST RUSH item.

Fact: Irelia is fucking good in season 3 because she scales so hard with BotRK and can't get shut down in lane. There is no chance of escaping an Irelia post-13 with BotRK, as she will Q to you, then E or BotRK you (and do the other if you try to gap create away), and then stick to you with Qs forever. She naturally builds frozen mallet as well, so you're triple-fucked if she gets on you. Since I started picking her in normals I've not only never lost lane, I have yet to not get fed once I get all my skills. I can have not gone back while my opponent has actually gotten an item, and then kill them when I hit 4 because Hiten Style's damage DOUBLES when you rank it up to 2 and you get about 3 free auto attacks because of your E stun and Q reset. Definitely taking her into ranked.

The only problem is you can't always rush BotRK because you might need some defense, but you still get it (or a mallet) within 15 minutes and become a carry blender that has to be killed to be stopped.

On a side note, I've realized I just suck at squishy assassins. Bruisers, tanks, and absolute pussy champions are the only way for me to play.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:25 pm

Fortunately, at the super-low elos that I inhabit most people haven't even heard of counter-jungling, so when I play amumu I usually do pretty well. Generally I rush a sunfires/Spirit Golem and build him pretty much pure tank, but I've seen people do well with a hybrid Rylai's + Liandry's build.

What do y'all think about AP brusier Maokai top? He'd have great waveclear, stupid sustain, and would probably be able to shut down a lot of aggressive top-laners really well with his poke and disengage. Any thoughts?

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:46 pm

You can play Maokai top and do well even, but he does have two problems to work around. The first is that his early mana costs are really expensive. You'd think throwing saplings all day would shut down melee bruisers, but in many cases it's hard to get enough mana to get through a tanky target. The second is that he walks kinda slow, has no escape move, and is not actually that tanky before he builds his items, so ganks are a major concern.

EDIT: I routinely beat Irelia in lane as Renekton, Teemo, or Riven. She can still outscale me later if we don't do anything with the advantage, but if your opponents are dying to irelia at level 4 I'm not sure what they're doing.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:54 am

Korgan, it was pretty hard for me to convince myself not to report your friend in that last game we played together. Such a bad manners player.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:07 am

I've realized something.

I hate bot lane.

We return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:43 am

So level 16-18 is the shittiest possible part of Lol.

It is at this level that it becomes approximately viable to play the game the way it is played at 30, IE, top bruiser/tank melee dps. Jungle. Mid AP mage class. Support and ADC bot.

However, not everyone knows this, or is willing to do this, because they are still leveling up from level 12-15 where it wasn't feasible, and they could win with complete shit four melee bruisers, no one in the jungle, no support or ADC shit.

So games come in these flavors:

1) Games where both sides play correctly, and the game is good. This is just so you know what you are missing.

2) Games where the other side is playing right and your team isn't. You get steamrolled, either because their ADC is better farmed because you have two ADCs (or a goddam fucking Teemo and an ADC) in bot competing for farm. Or because your team doesn't have a jungler so your bot gets ganked all the time and they level faster, you just lose.

3) Games where your team plays right, and the victory rings a little hollow. But hey, XP and IP are the same.

4) Games where everyone is playing right (or maybe just everyone on your team) except one fucking asshole who goes top and expects someone else to help them. That fucker will whine all fucking game about how he needs someone else top, especially if the other team has two top. And he will not fucking stop whining at the Jungler to come help him fucking ever. He may play well turret hugging, he may quit the game the second someone says jungle at the start, and he may play like he has two top and feed really bad. But no matter what, he will complain the whole time.

5) Complete clusterfucks of melee bruisers and adcs and mages with no supports or junglers in sight. You can win this game by jungling or adcing or midding and carrying your team, or you can lose because someone on the other team does better, but just ignore chat, because fuck everything your teammates have to say.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:15 pm

Surgo wrote:Korgan, it was pretty hard for me to convince myself not to report your friend in that last game we played together. Such a bad manners player.

Yeah, usually he's pretty good but sometimes he goes on a tilt and acts like a wanker. When he tries hard he's solid.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:54 pm

I apologize for being terrible in a game with a denner. I went too man mode on Sona early.

Orion wrote:I routinely beat Irelia in lane as Renekton, Teemo, or Riven. She can still outscale me later if we don't do anything with the advantage, but if your opponents are dying to irelia at level 4 I'm not sure what they're doing.

Teemo is a problem, but if they pick Teemo you can kill him at 6 (when you outduel almost everyone but Darius) and just farm under turret until then. It's very hard to deny Irelia farm because of how good she is at last hitting under turret (and fuck your blind, I can Q things) while sustaining herself.

For beating everyone else except Darius, all Irelia needs to do is start pushing the wave at 4 and wait for your opponent to trade with you. If they trade you get hit, E them, W -> auto -> Q -> auto during the stun, and then follow them around until W's active fades. Just the E W auto Q auto combo is 90 true damage (ow) and a bunch of physical and magic damage.

The ideal situation is the other top laner hitting you to start the trade (you want to open yourself up to this by pushing hard on the wave you'll hit 4 during). They get minion aggro, you unload Irelia's surprising burst and ignite if you think a kill is possible, then they run away or die.

People really hate getting zoned (especially by a champ they perceive as a weak laner and strong scaler like Irelia), so they'll usually make a mistake and let me kill them at 4. If not I'll try to hit an early 6 and kill them then. Irelia is really predictable, but her base stats and kit are so strong that she's going to slaughter her opponent if given the chance.

That and top lane players seem surprised when they die and refuse to play gracefully. If you're weak at certain levels and your opponent is strong at them you should play accordingly. Irelia is good at auto trades at 1, good at reacting to deep trades at 2, and OK at all-ins at 3. I'm not going to trade with a Riven until 4, and I won't even all-in her at 6 unless I've got tabi.

@Kaelik: I don't miss leveling up at all. Sometimes it's fun being in the clusterfuck, but god is it awful most of the time.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:28 pm

Sigh, the Nautilus nerf.

Still, it wasn't entirely unexpected I suppose. I'd much rather have the base armor and W cooldown buffs from before with this nerf, than have the damage from before without the new base armor and W cooldowns.

I had never really picked Nautilus for dueling potential and damage, but it was always nice to be able to clean up after some stupid fight that (usually bot lane, for whatever reason) engaged in.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:46 pm

Nautilus didn't need a nerf...oh well. The patch should be for the better, and Naut is still a CC machine. Just...damn. That's practically a third of his damage. It might be worth putting some more points into E after W is level 3 now.

Finally took Irelia into ranked. Carried hard 10/4/3, even after our bot lane did terrible because it was Graves + Zed (and yes, these are platinum and diamond players) and their Kha'Zix got 5 kills early game. I didn't even manage to kill my lane opponent at all early, I just farmed until mid-game, built a botrk and wit's end, and immediately curb stomped the fight for second dragon. I got a triple kill in the fight for first Baron as well. We were down 3/11, a dragon and a turret when we turned it around. It helps our Graves saved his dashes to dodge grabs and their AD was easy to stick to.

The early game was fucking stupid though. Zed gave them first blood by invading alone against Blitzcrank, our mid was doing terrible against Kha, our jungle got killed super early on, and so Mundo had all the time in the world to hang out top, which was smart because they had a top Gragas.

We had to give up the first dragon because of how badly everyone was doing, I was honestly surprised my team didn't surrender before I could contribute in a team fight.

tl;dr: I like Irelia a lot.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:17 pm

What do y'all think of the Dorans changes?

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:09 am

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:I apologize for being terrible in a game with a denner. I went too man mode on Sona early.

Oh, no, I didn't mean because of you! It's more because I keep folding. Sorry to guilt trip you.

Now I need to plan how to build new Kha...

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:06 am

Four Bloodthirsters, a Cleaver, and a Last Whisper, obviously.

Okay, that's a slight exaggeration, but I don't see why you'd build him any differently than before.

Korgan0 wrote:What do y'all think of the Dorans changes?

I wasn't aware that Irelia and Jax needed another nerf.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:48 pm

Surgo wrote:
Korgan0 wrote:What do y'all think of the Dorans changes?
I wasn't aware that Irelia and Jax needed another nerf.

I don't see how this is a nerf to either Irelia or Jax: Doran's Blade is unchanged, which is my standard start if I wanna trade early, and a boots/pots opening got buffed, with cloth/pots remaining unchanged.