Torchbearer - Kickstarter is UP

silva · Post by **silva** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:36 am

Oops. Thanks You Lost, just corrected it.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:28 am

silva wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
silva wrote:Oh yeah, if you referring just to 4e then I agree, its the one that most promotes archetypes synergy toward winning challenges.
You are a fucking idiot. No one is talking about 4e either. Not that you would know because you don't actually know the rules to any fucking edition of any game.
Look, friendly advice: The next time you try to offend me with a post devoid of any substance like that, I will put you in the ignore list. Forever. I never called you or anyone else here stupid or other pejorative adjective of any nature. And if you are not able to dispend the same respect and treatment, then youre a zero, a nobody who doesnt deserve my time.

Got it ?

Spoilered for long rant not about the subject of the thread.

Look, friendly advice: If you are going to put everyone on ignore who says mean things to you that you don't want to hear, you should just leave this forum and never come back, because in four months you will have literally everyone who posts on ignore. I mean for fucks sake, right above your post is erik saying that you have a habit of making uniformed incorrect conclusions. Do you know what you call someone who has a habit of making uniformed incorrect conclusions and then sharing them with better informed people? An idiot. erik called you an idiot. He just did it in a way that was too high handed for you to figure out.

I don't care if you put me on your ignore list forever. You are incomprehensibly bad at even figuring out what the actual topic of discussion even is at any point. I mostly only respond to your points in case someone who doesn't actually understand the subject happens across a thread.

I have been temporarily directing my comments at you for this post only for the almost certainly futile effort to help you actually become a vaguely useful poster. So I will now spell out the most critical part:

1) The value of a person or their words has absolutely nothing to do with how nice they are to you. Sometimes people deserve meanness, sometimes it is thrust upon them, but in either case, the person being mean doesn't become wrong just because they are mean, and in particular fact, if you say something stupid, people will call you stupid.

Now, in this thread, talking about incentivizing player behaviour deanrule even quoted directly from the actual book of the edition we are all actually talking about. Right beneath that he said, "While it is theoretically possible that a Wizard could go 20 levels without ever opening his spellbook and still level up his spell mastery that's not a system failure in my opinion."

So unless the edition of D&D you are talking about both includes the exact text he quoted, and has exactly 20 levels of Wizard, then you are wrong, that is not the edition we are talking about. And when you perpetually and purposefully and deliberately pretend to not know which edition of D&D we are talking you are being deceptive and stupid. Don't be deceptive and stupid. Be a moderately intelligent human being and either talk about what we are actually talking about, or don't talk. Or hell, even change the subject, but don't pretend we are talking about something we obviously aren't talking about. And if you are really so absolutely uniformed that you have no idea what the conversation is about.... then fucking don't talk.

And if you dismiss all advice that is prefaced with someone calling you stupid, you will continue to fail to earn my respect. You don't get to show no respect to me by being a stupid liar and then demand I respect you. That is not how it works. You long ago burned all the respect I give to new posters as a matter of courtesy, if you want my respect now you should act in a way that merits it. And protip, I don't give a fuck about fucking politeness on the internet. I respect Frank, but he is an uncompromising asshole to people who he thinks are wrong, including me and the many times he has called me an idiot. I respect deanrule/DSM similarly. Because calling me an idiot doesn't fucking matter to me, and being a stupid liar does. So stop being a stupid liar, and I will respect you, and consequently, call you stupid substantially less. I will dispense the same respect you show me when you show me respect.

Moral subjectivity is a bitch isn't it.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:41 am

Hey, maybe I'm just on the perma-ignore list already. It only seems fair.

Kaelik wrote:erik called you an idiot. He just did it in a way that was too high handed for you to figure out.

I have a policy against using forum quotations in signatures, but you sorely tempt me sir.

silva · Post by **silva** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:55 am

Well, you asked for it. And frankly, I wont lose anything because your posts are all pure ad hominems anyway.

And oh, dont bother replying to this, because you will already be on ignore.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:02 am

silva wrote:Well, you asked for it.

No, I recommended you learn to differentiate content from tone. Too bad you missed all the content of my post because you can't see through tone then huh? I think this even counts as real irony.

silva wrote:And frankly, I wont lose anything because your posts are all pure ad hominems anyway.

You should probably figure out what an ad hominem actually is. Hint: calling someone stupid is usually not an ad hominem.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:23 am

Honest non-mean advice Silva. I suggest not ignoring Kaelik. I think that would be bad for you. I don't think any other poster more perfectly personifies the Den than Kaelik. He is very aggressive, he swears a lot, and he usually opens his counterarguments by calling you moron. He is also very analytically intelligent, a strong debater, and correct about most positions he chooses to argue. His credibility has been proven enough that if I find myself arguing with him I double check myself, I reread and check to see if I'm still confident before continuing. He's a strong thinker and if you can develop the skin to be able to argue with him then you can get a lot out of this board. Kaelik, conceptually, is sort of like a gatekeeper between the way this board operates compared to others. The Den can do great things for you; it can make you a better critical thinker and a better debater but the price to pay for that is people will be mean to you, they'll tell you when you're wrong. If you can't handle the concepts of the board that let Kaelik do what he does then you will eventually go back to other boards where people are much more kind but much more wrong.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:40 am

This might be one of the more touching pages to ever grace the forums.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:45 am

I'm 90% sure Kaelik has the internet equivalent of resting bitchface and sounds super confrontational even when he's acting civil, which combined with his actual dickishness gives him a terrible rep.

Though he's being a dick here, definitely. A completely justified dick.

silva · Post by **silva** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:47 am

Dean, I dont mind people being honest and telling me Im wrong. But I do mind people being unnecessarily offensive and insulting. I have a life. I have real problems in my life. I come to the net to have a fun time talking about things I like with people I respect. I dont need to accept that kind of treatment, specially when a tool like "ignore" is so easy to use. I come here because I find a lot of people nice to discuss and with good ideas (even if I dont agree with all of them), not to get even more pissed, specially not from cowards who defend themselves behind the screen (thats my opinion on unnecessarily offensive people on the internet - they are cowards that get trashed in real life and come here because this is the only way than can get gratuitously aggressive without having their butt kicked). If that means eventually I will get out of here ? Dont know, time will tell. But I had enough of this kind of attitude. And Im not the only one, in fact, I heard TheNotoriousAMP and cyberzombie telling the same thing just the other day.

(anyway, I know I will probably un-ignore Kaelik as soon as I cool down my nerves. But right now I cant hear 1 more word from him )

silva · Post by **silva** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:01 am

Aryxbez wrote:Optimization isn't a "bad" thing, it's only bad if it's disruptive to the game, and that's likely not of Optimization itself, but the lack of communication with the group. Such as, play D&D, decided to play at "Fighter-level", but a new guy brings in a "Wizard-level" character, or a "Capt Hobo" to a Superhero game (or playing at Hawkeye level, and someone brings in a superman).

Agree, youre right. I stand corrected.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:12 am

silva wrote:from cowards who defend themselves behind the screen (thats my opinion on unnecessarily offensive people on the internet - they are cowards that get trashed in real life and come here because this is the only way than can get gratuitously aggressive without having their butt kicked).

If you don't see how this is an incredibly stupid and offensive thing to say, you should really try being less of an asshole. At least I only call people an asshole for things they actually say, instead of made up stupid prejudice.

Though by the way, I genuinely feel sorry for you or the unfortunate victim if you have ever actually experienced people being physically assaulted because someone didn't like what they say. Being mean is perfectly acceptable in a wide variety of situations, but physical violence rarely is, and if you experience so much of it that you think all the mean people on the internet (read any youtube comment thread) are all being physically assaulted, then I feel really bad for you.

mlangsdorf · Post by **mlangsdorf** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:48 pm

silva wrote:Look, friendly advice: The next time you try to offend me with a post devoid of any substance like that, I will put you in the ignore list. Forever. I never called you or anyone else here stupid or other pejorative adjective of any nature. And if you are not able to dispend the same respect and treatment, then youre a zero, a nobody who doesnt deserve my time.

silva wrote:(anyway, I know I will probably un-ignore Kaelik as soon as I cool down my nerves. But right now I cant hear 1 more word from him )

So are you a man of your word or are you an indecisive ass who comes in swearing thunder and blood, gets called on his bluff, and folds like a paper fan?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it's pathetic to make that kind of threat and then offer to renege on it within 24 hours.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:48 pm

No. If you say something foolish, you should walk away from it.

Don't be commit to foolishness forever based on a moment of foolishness. Then, next time, don't say foolish things in the first place.

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:48 am

silva wrote:Dean, I dont mind people being honest and telling me Im wrong. But I do mind people being unnecessarily offensive and insulting. I have a life. I have real problems in my life. I come to the net to have a fun time talking about things I like with people I respect. I dont need to accept that kind of treatment, specially when a tool like "ignore" is so easy to use. I come here because I find a lot of people nice to discuss and with good ideas (even if I dont agree with all of them), not to get even more pissed, specially not from cowards who defend themselves behind the screen (thats my opinion on unnecessarily offensive people on the internet - they are cowards that get trashed in real life and come here because this is the only way than can get gratuitously aggressive without having their butt kicked). If that means eventually I will get out of here ? Dont know, time will tell. But I had enough of this kind of attitude. And Im not the only one, in fact, I heard TheNotoriousAMP and cyberzombie telling the same thing just the other day.

(anyway, I know I will probably un-ignore Kaelik as soon as I cool down my nerves. But right now I cant hear 1 more word from him )

I have Kaelik on ignore too. From my limited experience with him, I found him incapable of having any kind of debate without resorting to his lame internet tough guy persona and calling people a bunch of insults he learned from his days in the 4th grade.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:50 am

Cyberzombie wrote:I have Kaelik on ignore too. From my limited experience with him, I found him incapable of having any kind of debate without resorting to his lame internet tough guy persona and calling people a bunch of insults he learned from his days in the 4th grade.

Then you're probably missing the points he makes because you don't like his language. More often than not he's making a pretty sound point.

...just not in a "nice" way.

Actually... I wonder if there's an extension already out there that'll filter in hilarious replacements for profanity.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:55 pm

Well, I broke down and ended up buying the Torchbearer Book + PDF bundle. I'm so fucking ashamed of myself.

At any rate, I skimmed the book and my old post and I still maintain most of what I said when I read someone else's copy. But, fuck it, I think that this book deserves a full-on Faux-OSSR Review. My very first, come to think. This game is fucked up in a lot of ways but it's fucked up in ways you generally don't see in TTRPGs. So hopefully it'll be more interesting than raking WoD or 3E/4E D&D over the coals one more time. And there's still old-school stupidity to it that was mentioned in previous posts in this very thread.