"Where D&D failed" or "How D&D lost its D&D" (no Prak/Kaeli)

[deaddmwalking]

Shadzar,

Let's say that I (and everyone else here) agreed that they bastardized the name of Dungeons & Dragons by applying it to different games. Let's say (hypothetically) that we all agreed that despite the business reasons for doing so (since, as you agreed, they wouldn't have had nearly the level of sales if they changed the name), we wish they had chosen a different name.

What then?

We can't go back in time and convince TSR or WotC to not do that.

We're all forced to play the cards we're dealt. Claiming 4th edition is not 'real' D&D is fine - I'm a little dismissive myself - but on a fundamental level, we all have to agree that it is the name that the product was released with.

If friends invite you over to play D&D and you didn't already know what they meant (since they're friends afterall), it's not that hard to ask them to specify edition.

Yes, specifying whether a specific supplement or class of supplements is available can take some additional investment of time, but it's minimal. 2nd edition Core can be specified just as easily as 2nd edition + Skills and Powers. Or 3rd edition core plus approved splat books (player request).

So, considering that the company(ies) that own(ed) the name Dungeons & Dragons released multiple disparate games under that title, those of us who play would only create more confusion if we settled on a 'new name' for each edition. It's simply easier to understand that D&D 3.x means something different from AD&D.

[sabs]

There is one argument for why 4E isn't really D&D.

When someone says, "we're going to play D&D" there are a coupe of things I assume.

1) There is going to be a Wizard who memorizes spells from a spellbook on some kind of Vancian schedule.
2) There is going to be a Cleric who is like the Wizard, except he can fight in melee, and turn/control undead, and he memorizes his spells from Prayer.
3) There is going to be a lame ass fighter of suck, who tricks you into thinking he might be cool, but isn't.
4) There is going to be a Paladin class with some flavor of Lay on Hands and limited clerical spells.
5) I am going to have str, dex, con, int,wis,cha and maybe one or two more stats rated 3-18+ based on 3d6 rolling.
6) There are going to be HP.
7) There is going to be AC. (even if the whole thac0 thing changed between 2nd and 3rd, we still had AC)
8) I'm going to have to roll saving throws.

These are things I can count on in D&D. This is true of every single edition from 1st to 3rd. It doesn't really count for OD&D but lets be honest, how many gamers under 40 have even played OD&D once. When I say D&D, people think 1st-3rd and 4th.

Very few of those actually apply to 4th Edition. It's a vastly different game than 1st-3rd.

[shadzar]

We can't go back in time and convince TSR or WotC to not do that.

sabs has answered mostly you "play with the cards you are dealt" bit.

nobody is telling TSR or WotC to change shit, cause they can't. what people are telling them is to acknowledge the lie they has been saying for over a decade now.

now i have outlined the games editions before showing where 1996 released 5th edition D&D, so i wont go through that again, someone wwanting it can search these forums.

the important thing is the list i made recently:

BD&D
AD&D
3.x
4/E

people could sit at the same table with 1st and 2nd edition books and play. they were that damn close. yes there are some that are buttsore about Devils and Demon being changed to appease bible thumpers, but there are also people that argue over Mind Flayer or Illithid, too. a random monster name means nothing. if you had 1st edition books, you still had the other name.

BD&D was changed each time, but through out, was MOSTLY the same. it is this compatibility that that made D&D what it was for nearly 30 years before WotC came along and threw it away because THEY decide that NOBODY wanted it anymore. the same thing for AD&D that lasted 20 years. WotC sees itself as God's gift to gaming and they can do no wrong. look at 4th edition and what people TRIED to warn them about BEFORE it was ever released. they just sat in their ivory tower not listening, and the same is true for DDN. they won't listen to what people are telling the the "feel" is.

the truth of the matter is WotC is no gaming god and Magic the Gathering is their ONLY success, and they have nearly destroyed it. the keep adding new and stupid gimmicks like split cards, planewalker cards, etc. how many games did WotC fail with?

Chainmail
Dreamblade
Primal Order

these are just RPG or D&D related games, but there is plenty more. WotC is incapable of making an RPG without the D&D name because without it that RPG would fail. It is why Peter Ad-whatever bought TSR in the first place.

you saw the cries when 4th came out about people not wanting to switch to a new game, and thus WotC gave birth to Pathfinder. right, wrong, or indifferent, it is the successor to 3.x. or at least in the beginning it supported 3.x more closely.

Hackmaster is in no way a method to support AD&D, nor are these clones based on d20 system. AD&D doesn't use the d20 system.

WotC has seen the damage PF has done to it, and that is again why they are willing to support their, and ONLY their previous "D&D" editions in Encounters for DDN.

they try to deny people enjoy AD&D and BD&D, and that is the problem. it was the same thing they tried doing when 3.x sales dropped was deny people enjoyed it as the reason for the loss in sales, so they made 4th.

when you have so much confusion, then the name that was so hard fought to protect or buy, means nothing.

you, also like many others, mistakenly assume that people only play D&D with "friends". I hated people like you on WotC forums and ENWorld, and i hate you here as well. you think your luck in having that many players around that you can select a few to enjoy playing with is how WONDERFUL the world works for everyone... just fuck off with that.

1. playing with friends is a luxury, so take your 1% rich ass philosophy elsewhere

2. new players don't have the option of playing with only friends

3. cons/store events don't let you just play with friends

anyone that closes their mind to the point they think D&D is ONLY played with friends is arguing a corner case, not necessarily the majority view.

it is about going FORWARD. WotC needs to stop acting like D&D never existed before them. they need to realize that when in trying to CLAIM to appeal to older edition fans, that not everyone wants to play "no child left behind so everyone graduates always in elementary school" DM fiat leveling.

posit this as it is one of my gripes about 3.x+ editions:

the DM assigns XP and rewards a bonus XP to the thief for doing something interesting and the game was more fun for all. the thief gains a level from the bonus XP.

is this a problem in AD&D? does it make any of the other players feel left behind?

is this a problem in d20? does it make any players feel left behind?

AD&D the answer would be no, everyone has different XP rates. d20, EVERYONE should be the same level all the time, that is the ONLY reason to have unified XP amounts for every class for every level, so everyone not that thief feels like they were left behind.

i have seen in 3.5 that exact thing happen and the exact defense used for the level system, IN A GAME!

the fat that the mentality of the games is so different is the problem, and the reason for this thread. the mentality towards the game itself is either TSR systems and way of playing or WotC systems and way of playing. they cannot play together because not unlike the systems, the players are not compatible with what they seek from the game.

another problem WotC created was to the same effect of "firing old players for new" or whatever you want to call it along those terms, that they are grasping for straws from the new audience.

Note that most people feel that a "true gamer" plays more than one RPG, so it really makes no sense from a company standpoint that you would get them to stop playing these 5 other games for yours only. so why change it for that purpose? WotC d20 editions are ALL just sales gimmicks. they are not even games. this is why 3.0 had to be changed after what, 3 years to an incompatible edition? i am not sure how compatible 3.0 and 3.5 is, someone else is free to make a thread to explain that if they haven't already. then they just throw it out 5 years later? 4th edition was changed in... 2 years? then thrown out mostly 2 years later, and for nearly a year have not had a single product to sell. this is because it isn't a game, but a marketing gimmick. that or they really think D&D is like an iPhone and they have made some vast technological improvement that the older books no longer function in the world.

they just need to acknowledge they fucked up and FURTHER retract what they have said and done, and SUPPORT older editions then maybe the animosity towards them and players of their editions will be relaxed or might even go away. They have this thing now that is "fixing" the Realms to remove the damage done by the Spellplague of 4th edition

what people don't seem to realize, especially since someone said they shoudl slap the name D&D on a dish washing detergent or something like that is that this shit was done before! LW had D&D cross-stitch patterns, wood-burning kits, etc. Just using the name to sell things. Maybe you didn't live through that to where you got tired of seeing the name D&D lose any meaning even BEFORE WotC got it. well sadly that is the same thing WotC is doing right now. there is no RPG on the market today that is called D&D. This is the first time since 1977 that you couldn't buy D&D an RPG. I would love if WotC could fail like TSR did so that its employees would have to find new jobs and its management would be away from D&D, but sadly they are backed by HASBRO and they will just put D&D away forever as anything other than a name and use up the name until people stopped buying novels and board games.

there are just so many factors, it isnt even funny.

the question though would be, do WE the players care if 3.x had been named somethnig else and didn't sell that well for WotC? i bet those that liked it would have bought it and spread it around. and for those that would have been no D&D on the market, they are like many in this lead up to DDN, they would just rather let it die with dignity, than be on life support for the next century.

so people shouldn't have to be "forced" to play 4th or even 3rd, or the playstyle and mentality they include. that is why D&D was created to offer a new type of game or two, that allows you to play your way, not forcing you to keep following status quo. d20 should have never been called D&D.

[infected slut princess]

LOL another 1500 word barely coherent rant from Shadzar.

This is the best part:

you, also like many others, mistakenly assume that people only play D&D with "friends". I hated people like you on WotC forums and ENWorld, and i hate you here as well. you think your luck in having that many players around that you can select a few to enjoy playing with is how WONDERFUL the world works for everyone... just fuck off with that.

1. playing with friends is a luxury, so take your 1% rich ass philosophy elsewhere

This thread reveals many interesting facts about Shadzar. Earlier, we learned that he actually wants RPGs to be more like MMOs.

Now we learn that he seems to hate anyone with friends.

What a guy.

[shadzar]

no, we just learn you like to be an ass cause you assume shit that isnt correct. i would suggest you go back to elementary school and complain about the "nobody gets left behind" because you REALLY failed to learn things at that level, like communication skills yet were allowed to continue to the next grade anyway to pamper your ego.

[infected slut princess]

you REALLY failed to learn things at that level, like communication skills

Haha

[deaddmwalking]

I still believe that it would do you well to make an effort to communicate well in a read/write medium. Forgive me for responding to your points out of order.

they just need to acknowledge they fucked up and FURTHER retract what they have said and done, and SUPPORT older editions then maybe the animosity towards them and players of their editions will be relaxed or might even go away. They have this thing now that is "fixing" the Realms to remove the damage done by the Spellplague of 4th edition

Why do they need to do this? They're a business. They made a business decision. If they made a bad decision (and they did) they were punished for it by loss of sales and for many people, the loss of their job. Losing a job is a pretty big deal - and while I can armchair game design with the comfort of my two-income household, on some level, I respect the people that are trying to make a living through game design. I'm all for holding them to a higher standard - they are professionals, after all, but their job is to make a product that sells.

Nobody came to your house and raped your pet fish, or peed in your Cheerios. Releasing a game you don't like isn't a crime. Calling a game you don't like by a similar name isn't a crime. I'd like an apology, too. I think that yanking the license from Dragon Magazine and Dungeon magazine was terribad. I think canceling 3.x when they did was worse. I think the DDI and Gleemax were incomprehensible. So, as much as I'd like an apology, I don't expect one and don't think it would necessarily be the best thing. I mean, they can apologize in general for mistakes, but every thing I think was a mistake there is probably someone who thinks was awesome. So, rather than apologize, they should make something that is universally loved.

Whether 2nd edition or 3.x is your preferred edition - surely you admit that it is possible that some combination of features might actually be awesome sauce - if you play 5 RPGs, maybe they'll make one that is SO AWESOME that you'll never want to play any of the others again - not even 2nd edition. That's a tall order, but if they can do it - more power to them.

well sadly that is the same thing WotC is doing right now. there is no RPG on the market today that is called D&D. This is the first time since 1977 that you couldn't buy D&D an RPG. I would love if WotC could fail like TSR did so that its employees would have to find new jobs and its management would be away from D&D, but sadly they are backed by HASBRO and they will just put D&D away forever as anything other than a name and use up the name until people stopped buying novels and board games.

Too many products might dilute the brand name, but businesses need to make money. But as for being out of print - WotC released reprints of lots of legacy books. I would have bought some newer books, but I don't like the cover art. So, you can get a new printing of your 1st and 2nd edition books. Guess you could say that D&D is still in print.

so people shouldn't have to be "forced" to play 4th or even 3rd, or the playstyle and mentality they include. that is why D&D was created to offer a new type of game or two, that allows you to play your way, not forcing you to keep following status quo. d20 should have never been called D&D.

Again, I don't think it matters what they call d20 D&D. Since you're so fond of pointing out - there were already 5+ editions by 1996; people were used to differentiating. But even if they weren't, nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. If people are playing 3.x even though they might, hypothetically, enjoy another edition more, that's not exactly forced. It just means that 2nd edition DMs need to do a better job of proselytizing for their chosen edition. If the game has merit, and the DMs are creating a fun time for their players, they'll be able to recruit gamers.

If you find you're unable to recruit players, it indicates two possibilities - either the game is defective or you are defective as a DM. Either way, it's not fair to blame externalities. Would 3.x have been as popular without the name? Probably not, but it doesn't matter - it did have the name. Now getting people to choose 3.x over Pathfinder, or 2nd edition over ShadowRun is a matter of convincing people that the game is worthwhile. You do that by finding people willing to give it a try and making the game awesome.

you, also like many others, mistakenly assume that people only play D&D with "friends". I hated people like you on WotC forums and ENWorld, and i hate you here as well. you think your luck in having that many players around that you can select a few to enjoy playing with is how WONDERFUL the world works for everyone... just fuck off with that.

1. playing with friends is a luxury, so take your 1% rich ass philosophy elsewhere

2. new players don't have the option of playing with only friends

3. cons/store events don't let you just play with friends

anyone that closes their mind to the point they think D&D is ONLY played with friends is arguing a corner case, not necessarily the majority view.

Here's the thing. If you start playing with someone/group of people and you don't hate them - and important corollary - they don't hate you, it's possible to become friends. With my current gaming group, I met all but one of them through gaming. Now, even though we live in 5 different states (there are only 5 of us), we still manage to game most every week for ~5 hours on Sundays. Sure - not everyone can do that. But if I could not play with my friends, I'd make an effort to make new friends who were also interested in gaming; or I would try to convince some of my non-gaming friends to give it a chance.

I understand that there are places where it's hard to pull a group together. But if you're not a basement-dwelling mouth-breathing neckbeard, it's going to be possible. And I don't mean to be harsh - if you can't organize a group, you might want to carefully evaluate your life. There are a lot of people interested in gaming - take a look at these boards or any other boards. It is a niche hobby, but it's very possible to get connected with gamers anywhere you go.

I don't play with my local gamers, but I've already received a standing invitation to join a game if I'm so inclined. Apparently they have a Facebook page - if I were on Facebook, maybe I would even take them up on it.

[Seerow]

There is one argument for why 4E isn't really D&D.

When someone says, "we're going to play D&D" there are a coupe of things I assume.

1) There is going to be a Wizard who memorizes spells from a spellbook on some kind of Vancian schedule.
2) There is going to be a Cleric who is like the Wizard, except he can fight in melee, and turn/control undead, and he memorizes his spells from Prayer.
3) There is going to be a lame ass fighter of suck, who tricks you into thinking he might be cool, but isn't.
4) There is going to be a Paladin class with some flavor of Lay on Hands and limited clerical spells.
5) I am going to have str, dex, con, int,wis,cha and maybe one or two more stats rated 3-18+ based on 3d6 rolling.
6) There are going to be HP.
7) There is going to be AC. (even if the whole thac0 thing changed between 2nd and 3rd, we still had AC)
8) I'm going to have to roll saving throws.

These are things I can count on in D&D. This is true of every single edition from 1st to 3rd. It doesn't really count for OD&D but lets be honest, how many gamers under 40 have even played OD&D once. When I say D&D, people think 1st-3rd and 4th.

Very few of those actually apply to 4th Edition. It's a vastly different game than 1st-3rd.

Which one of those don't actually apply to 4th edition? One could argue all of those are true of 4th edition.

1) Wizard has a spellbook, and gets twice as many dailies as any one else that he has to choose between day to day. Later rules expanded that to 3-4x more.
2) Clerics use the same power set as everyone else, including wizards. This criteria is met.
3) This depends on perception of 4e. If you like 4e as it is, 3 is false, because the Fighter is as good as or better than most other 4e classes. If you hate 4e though, this should be true as the Fighter fails as much as any other class.
4) I honestly don't remember the Paladin power set, but I am pretty sure they had a Lay on Hands ability that lets them use their own healing surges to heal someone else. And of course they use divine powers. This one I believe is met.
5) Default system is point buy, but nothing stops you from rolling. The same base range pre-racials is still there.
6) HP still exists
7) AC still exists
8) You still roll saving throws.


Of course the specifics of the mechanics are different, but your specific list is pretty dumb as far as making the argument that 4e is not D&D.

[zugschef]

8) You still roll saving throws.

No you don't: In 4E there are not saves but defences (that's the one thing I liked about 4E).

[Emerald]

There is one argument for why 4E isn't really D&D.

When someone says, "we're going to play D&D" there are a coupe of things I assume.

1) There is going to be a Wizard who memorizes spells from a spellbook on some kind of Vancian schedule.
2) There is going to be a Cleric who is like the Wizard, except he can fight in melee, and turn/control undead, and he memorizes his spells from Prayer.
3) There is going to be a lame ass fighter of suck, who tricks you into thinking he might be cool, but isn't.
4) There is going to be a Paladin class with some flavor of Lay on Hands and limited clerical spells.
5) I am going to have str, dex, con, int,wis,cha and maybe one or two more stats rated 3-18+ based on 3d6 rolling.
6) There are going to be HP.
7) There is going to be AC. (even if the whole thac0 thing changed between 2nd and 3rd, we still had AC)
8) I'm going to have to roll saving throws.

These are things I can count on in D&D. This is true of every single edition from 1st to 3rd. It doesn't really count for OD&D but lets be honest, how many gamers under 40 have even played OD&D once. When I say D&D, people think 1st-3rd and 4th.

Very few of those actually apply to 4th Edition. It's a vastly different game than 1st-3rd.

Which one of those don't actually apply to 4th edition? One could argue all of those are true of 4th edition.

1) Wizard has a spellbook, and gets twice as many dailies as any one else that he has to choose between day to day. Later rules expanded that to 3-4x more.
2) Clerics use the same power set as everyone else, including wizards. This criteria is met.
3) This depends on perception of 4e. If you like 4e as it is, 3 is false, because the Fighter is as good as or better than most other 4e classes. If you hate 4e though, this should be true as the Fighter fails as much as any other class.
4) I honestly don't remember the Paladin power set, but I am pretty sure they had a Lay on Hands ability that lets them use their own healing surges to heal someone else. And of course they use divine powers. This one I believe is met.
5) Default system is point buy, but nothing stops you from rolling. The same base range pre-racials is still there.
6) HP still exists
7) AC still exists
8) You still roll saving throws.


Of course the specifics of the mechanics are different, but your specific list is pretty dumb as far as making the argument that 4e is not D&D.

1) The wizard isn't Vancian any more than any other 4e class is just because it gets to choose its dailies; it still gets at-will and encounter powers, still has separate combat and utility power slots, and still has a separation between powers and rituals.

2) The cleric isn't Vancian (see #1), nor is it particularly more similar to the wizard or any other caster than to the fighter.

3) Agreed, the fighter sucks.

4) He didn't say the paladin used divine spells, he said it used cleric spells. In 1e-3e, the paladin is very much a cleric/fighter hybrid with some extra perks on top (such as only a handful of unique paladin spells on a list of mostly cleric spells), whereas the 4e paladin shares practically zero powers with the cleric (unless you count both having "X[W] + Y plus Z condition" as sharing powers, in which case all classes have significant overlap).

5) Nothing stops you, except for the fact that point buy is now the default and you need a 16 in your main stat and a good score in your secondary(/ies); it's possible to play 3e with 3d6-in-order stat gen and just be a bit weaker despite the fact that 4d6k3 is the default (as a non-MAD class, at least), but a 3d6-in-orde 4e character would be murdered within the first few encounters, by partymates resentful of his incompetence if not by the monsters.

6 & 7) Not sure why he mentioned HP and AC; I'm assuming he's referring to the fact that healing surges and bloodied values for HP and Int to AC make them function quite differently, but you're right, they both exist in basically the same form.

8) I know you know that "roll a saving throw" means vastly different things in 1e-3e and 4e. It should be obvious that he meant rolling saving throws as opposed to using defenses, not just rolling a d20 and calling it a saving throw.

You can't just search for tenuous connections or shared names and say that 3e and 4e are the same except that oh, of course the specifics of the mechanics are different, and so sitting down to play 1e-3e is just like sitting down to play 4e. It's precisely the specifics of the mechanics that make the games feel different, otherwise the Den would be happy to play 1e with Shadzar because, hey, it has things called wizards and skills and AC and initiative like 3e, they must all function the same way!

[shadzar]

I still believe that it would do you well to make an effort to communicate well in a read/write medium. Forgive me for responding to your points out of order.

they just need to acknowledge they fucked up and FURTHER retract what they have said and done, and SUPPORT older editions then maybe the animosity towards them and players of their editions will be relaxed or might even go away. They have this thing now that is "fixing" the Realms to remove the damage done by the Spellplague of 4th edition

Why do they need to do this? They're a business. They made a business decision. If they made a bad decision (and they did) they were punished for it by loss of sales and for many people, the loss of their job.

and this is WHY the are undoing the Spellplague of 4th edition to FIX the Forgotten Realms. maybe you should read current events? This is ALSO why they are bringing back Spelljammer, Ravenloft, etc settings. they ARE admitting they fucked up since 3rd on SOME levels. bringing back settings and support for them does NOT support the editions. Claiming Greyhawk has always existed so OD&D has always had support is just making a stupid claim and fooling yourself. Lying to yourself, actually.

Mearls still ahs a job at WotC, but as far as I know, Jon Tweet, Monte Cook, and the other from 3rd; many involved with 4th (Dave Noonan, Bill S., Scott Rouse, Randy Beuhler (see GLEEMAX! incident))...no longer have their job. But WotC as a company, be it Greg Leeds the CEO put into place by HASBRO, or someone other than the equivalent of a PR butt-kisser like Scott Rouse was and like Randy Beuhler was needs to come forward and admit flat out, that they fucked up. Personally, I would have Mike Mearls, and would have prefered the douche Bill S to have apologized.

Token offerings such as bastardized settings "we are making Spelljammer its own world!", "We are making Raveloft only a part of another plane instead of its own demi-plane", etc just to have the name for sale on products again of those "settings" is just trying to blow smoke up peoples ass.

though a business, they STILL have a requirement and responsibility to their customers. WotC, however, expects the consumer to be loyal to it with no questions asked. If you don't believe me, look at the lead up to 4h edition! WotC and its employees just thinks it's shit doesn't stink. Well they dropped a giant ass raunchy smelling turd on the world, and its time the apologize for the pollution they caused.

you see MANY others business apologize in the world with recalls on items for things that are NOT even hazardous, just offensive to some. Backpedaling some call it, well either way DDN token gestures are NOT enough of an apology for many. WotC can get on the ground and lick the shit form the boots of ALL those people (including 3rd because well 4th) they made wade through the shit that they have done to D&D.

a company sympathetic to the buyer is often the one that makes more money unless they are granted a monopoly against anti-trust laws such as telecomm which became worse than Standard Oil ever was.

Too many products might dilute the brand name, but businesses need to make money.

now i know you are Lorraine Willaims posting ont hese forums about D&D, and have no idea why you would even come close to D&D after the 90s and what you did to it and your hate for gamers. Cause:

1. D&D has long since been diluted in the 80s, the thing AD&D strove to fix when released in 1977.

2. D&D doesnt need to be put on fucking chorssstitch patterns jsut to have product awareness or revenue because:
A: WotC makes more than D&D
B: HASBRO has revenue from more than just WotC

So either you are Lorraine Williams, or just as fucking stupid as she is/was.

The overpriced limited reprints of books that needed to be errata's or basically FIXED only keeps the name in the market. Releasing A Sereis for DDN is not the same as releasing it again for new people, they only strive to keep the collector market at bay for those that prize their original prints, though they bastardized things like "Rules Cyclopedia" and "Red Box" when they released those under 4th. All they strive to do is further bastardize and dilute D&D. Now I have NO problem with them updating an adventure to a new edition, but they SHOULD allow people to choose what edition they wish to play.

again, the need to stop trying to sell new editions, and just sell the core editions books, and make adventures old and new for ALL editions compatible. I have said this before, that THAT is the support needed, but they FEAR printing anything with terms like THAC0.

How can you say you want to support older edition players and STILL slap them in the face by calling the game THEY choose to be worthless, which in turn is calling them worthless?

WotC only believes D&D works as the d20 system, and that is what they need to apologize for and rectify.

If you find you're unable to recruit players, it indicates two possibilities - either the game is defective or you are defective as a DM.

Again you prove yourself a fool. I am not one of those "collectors" that has 400 copies of the PHBs to let players use all the time, nor am i rich enough to do so. also not everyone just goes on and trusts places like Amazon for used books. SOME people like stores they can see and feel the book, and in the case of D&D and books in general SMELL the book to make sure it isnt covered in food stains and rot, or just general mildew and mold from improper care.

The access to the main game isn't out there (legally) like the SRD that many people use as a PHB for 3.x. There are sites that have been linked to on here that illegally share the HTML files present on CD-ROM version of 2nd known as Core Rules 2.0, but that isn't something everyone condones.

again like above, they are NOT supporting the edition for fear that people will want it, NOT their "new shiny".

D&D editions should not be collector items like some special print edition of Trivial Pursuit or Nintendo/Star Wars Monopoly. the collector value of the originals was in PART kept by new cores for the reprints of 1st and 2nd, but also the materials used and copyright dates. THIS helps, but why do only a limited run? Why for so long did they fear PDF sales, when they had nothing to lose, and thus BROUGHT BACK older edition PDF sales?

Why can't they have print form or print-on-demand for older editions?

it is about ACCESS, which IS DENIED by WotC to older editions for fear their 2013 model car will sell less than the 2012 model, because it is competing with yourself. remember that 4th edition was claimed, by Scott Rouse on ENWorld, to have cost at LEAST 7 digits in development....MILLIONS of dollars. They need the expense to be recovered like Disney praying overseas sales covers the flop that is THE Lone Ranger which is still $200 million away from making ANY profits at all or even breaking even!

It would cost less to fix 2nd than develop a new edition and release a fixed version with errata in place.

Hell it would cost less to make a 2.4 edition that goes between 2nd and PO, or a 2.7 edition that keeps 2nd ideas but updates to some 3.0 ideas, without those things like feats and such...ergo turning THAC0 into BAB for those 2nd graders that cant do math with today's technology to be able to subtract negative numbers.

but you are too blind to see any of that and think it is product failure or player failure. guess those are the reason i can no longer buy Twinkies huh? Company failure had NOTHING to do with Hostess, not does it have anything to do with TSR going bankrupt or WotC mismanaging D&D. it is ALL the fault of the players, and corporate management is never at fault. Glad you were born with a gold brick to suckle on when you popped out of your mothers snatch and didn't have to rely on her dirty fleshy teet and can live off that gold forever. Must be nice in your fantasy world...hope you don't have any goblins lurking in the shadows of the forest and you have your dice on hand to roll for an attack should they jump you.

Most people live in the real world, not your fantasy one.

I understand that there are places where it's hard to pull a group together. But if you're not a basement-dwelling mouth-breathing neckbeard, it's going to be possible

you surely don't live in the bible-belt, and again live in the fantasy world where all pastimes ar allowed by everyone and obviously your fantasy world allows gay marriage to all should they so choose as well?

you are oblivious of the real world. you have to be some rich pampered snob living in the shadow of reality in new york wandering around wall street or some shit, cause you don't know shit about reality.

i bet you have probably never even heard of a "dry county" before either have you?

i guess your posh mansion has rooms just for D&D and everyone you know has the same at your home or you actually have places that allow such things outside of a single comic store that has ONE table for it for people to use IF the CCG players arent already filling it.

fucking rich cock-suckers thinking they know everything. you are just yuppy trash. hope your diamond studded toilet paper from tiffanys doesnt mar your precious doesn't stink ass!

FUCK OFF!

[shadzar]

It's precisely the specifics of the mechanics that make the games feel different, otherwise the Den would be happy to play 1e with Shadzar because, hey, it has things called wizards and skills and AC and initiative like 3e, they must all function the same way!

I am not sure whether to be offended by this or say thanks for understanding the simple fact of the matter that many don't understand about personal preference in D&D editions. AND people's right to have their own personal preference.

Though either way, someone else to run the game of 1st cause I ain't reading through that shit again but I will play it if the DM is doing all the work to decipher the game from those tomes.

[infected slut princess]

you are oblivious of the real world. you have to be some rich pampered snob living in the shadow of reality in new york wandering around wall street or some shit, cause you don't know shit about reality.

...

i guess your posh mansion has rooms just for D&D and everyone you know has the same at your home or you actually have places that allow such things outside of a single comic store that has ONE table for it for people to use IF the CCG players arent already filling it.

fucking rich cock-suckers thinking they know everything. you are just yuppy trash. hope your diamond studded toilet paper from tiffanys doesnt mar your precious doesn't stink ass!

i guess your posh mansion has rooms just for D&D and everyone you know has the same at your home or you actually have places that allow such things outside of a single comic store that has ONE table for it for people to use IF the CCG players arent already filling it.

fucking rich cock-suckers thinking they know everything. you are just yuppy trash. hope your diamond studded toilet paper from tiffanys doesnt mar your precious doesn't stink ass!

LOL!!! I didn't realize people had to be rich trust fund babies and work on Wall Street and have diamond-studded toilet paper to have friends to play D&D with.

Shadzar, admit it: you have no friends and you hate anyone who has friends. And you are just like Mike Mearls because you want all the players to blow the DM and you want RPGs to be more like MMOs.

The evidence of all this is plain to see in this wonderful thread of yours.

And you can buy old edition PDFs officially at www.dndclassics.com which is a WotC site so half of your latest poorly-written 1500 word rant isn't even valid.

[Leress]

And you can buy old edition PDFs officially at www.dndclassics.com which is a WotC site so half of your latest poorly-written 1500 word rant isn't even valid.

To be fair it seems that the DMG and Player's Handbook isn't for sale there.

you surely don't live in the bible-belt, and again live in the fantasy world where all pastimes ar allowed by everyone and obviously your fantasy world allows gay marriage to all should they so choose as well?

I do and dead's point still stands.

Now you do have some points (but for some reason you say that WOTC should apologize for 3rd even though it brought a resurgence to PnP rpgs), but mixing some of your opinions as fact. You also seem to like to put opinions in other peoples mouths.

[sabs]

Shad is... just loopy. He's like a mean spirited drunk, without the good parts.
I also live in the bible belt, and yet.. there are roleplaying games here. Hell, I live in the bible belt state that brought us White Wolf.

[deaddmwalking]

I live in Knoxville, TN. When I first came here, I couldn't believe how many churches there were. Driving through town, trying to find a place to live, I'd turn down all kinds of small roads. I'd find the Maple Creek Baptist Church and a literal stone's throw away would be the 2nd Street Baptist Church.

When I first looked in the map for churches, I was amazed at how the Baptist section just kept going on and on. Then the Methodist section, which was only half the size, but still impressive.

Yes, I live in the Bible Belt.

With free programs like Skype or Google hangouts, there is no reason you can't connect with any of the billion+ people with fast internet connections. Even if you have to go to your local library, I think you could do it.

There are Meetup groups; there are probably Facebook pages; there are lots of ways to find players either geographically near you or willing to telecommute.

I've lived in California, Iowa, and now Tennessee. No matter where you live, you can find gamers. Hell, if you're real hard up, find a military base. I'm sure you can find some gamers there. And if you're in the United States, there shouldn't be a military base too far away.

[Stinktopus]

Loving this trainwreck...

Shadzar, admit it: you have no friends and you hate anyone who has friends.

This basically sums up what Shad has been saying from the start of the thread.

Shad obviously does not have a group that he plays with. Now, having read the tortured insanity that Shad calls "thought," it is clear that Shad's lack of a gaming group is due to him being a white-van-driving motherfucker who scares the neighborhood children. In Shad's mind, though, it's because the current crop of players is beneath him, having been ruined by the vidja games and rock n' roll music.

3E has absolutely NO features that prevent the sort of game Shadzar claims to want, aside from a few things that were basically ported over from 2E. Earth Elementals needed a +2 or better weapon to hit ("It doesn't have a weak spot! It's a rock!"), as did numerous other beasties, so "must be this tall to ride" mechanics are hardly a WotC invention. You either handed out the magic weapons like candy at a certain point, or it became a game of Caster Supremacy.

However, 3E probably came out around the time that the last of Shadzar's friends jumped off a bridge or were thrown in prison, so it has become the focus of all his lonely, impotent rage.

Imagine being a new player showing up to a game that Shadzar was going to run:

Newbie: "So, can I be a Wizard?"

Shadzar: "Sure."

Newbie: "Can I be a Fire Wizard, and have all the fire spells, and like a wand of fire?"

Shadzar: "WHAT?!?! GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY BASEMENT YOU PIECE OF SHIT!!! Fuck you and your video gamey bullshit! D&D is about adventures, not your special snowflake novella!"

Newbie: "What the hell are you talking about, you freak?!"

Shadzar: "Shit in your hand! Shit... in... your... HAND!!!"

[nockermensch]

I blame Stockholm Syndrome. Shadzar must have been so abused by gygaxean DM dickery that he came to believe that that is the Right Thing.

I feel bad now for holding back at him a few pages ago. I had the idea to ask him if player coming to a game with a "character sheet" that was empty and getting away with only mtp would be playing D&D before he went on and said that if your character sheet has more than the character name and class, you're gaming with Hitler. (paraphrased)

[deaddmwalking]

Shadzar: "Shit in your hand! Shit... in... your... HAND!!!"

I'm still laughing.

[fectin]

I'm still bemused that only the 1% have friends.

[shadzar]

but for some reason you say that WOTC should apologize for 3rd even though it brought a resurgence to PnP rpgs

I assume the DMA and rights issues still prevent them from really selling 1st or 2nd, which is all WotC fault, but even more the reason they should apologize to people for not having the core book for sale in PDF. they have other books from the Core Rules on PDF. i guess they wish for people to track down and pay $200+ for the main problem and then again for the expansion to it and have computers from 10 years ago to run them on due to incompatibility issues with anything newer than Windows XP.

well it didnt. there was still plenty of RPG players. 3rd didnt do what, again, you people claim it did. the gap in time and growth of "gaming" as a hobby industry did a lot more than a "new edition". it cannot be proven that 3rd was the sole reason for this anymore than comic stores appearing everywhere while Toy-R-Us wasnt everywhere for people to be able to purchase these, as well as online purchases from places like eBay.

there was NOTHING for people to buy such as in the case of the PDFs that would let them PLAY the TSR editions. you can't play White Plume Mountain without a game system to play it in. you just don't know how things work.

when comic stores/gaming stores took over from baseball card stores since you could do something other than stare at your cards, you could actually PLAY a game with them, that is what did the most help, added to having a product on the market. they NEVR gave 2nd a chance to see what it could do in the new world and new market, they just shat all over it and its players, and THAT is what they need to apologize for. likewise to 3rd edition as well for EVERY fucked up lies told in the 4th edition "ze game will remain ze same" video.

tell me honestly how bad 2nd sucked since Baulder's Gate series was so popular even among none tabletop fans?

WotC just wont acknowledge in other than token gestures that it is in any way concerned about wanting PLAYERS back from older editions, only their money.

WotC may be the main reason that there was the ability for RPGs to come out hard and strong, but it was their work with MtG that created places to play THAT game that also allowed room to play D&D and other RPGs.

tell me im wrong, but bring proof that is was SOLELY because of 3rd edition as a game system, NOT ANY other factor of the fast changing world at the time.

and what exactly was dead's point? you think everyone everywhere has places that will accept D&D or OLDER editions? yeah, some are still hung up like Jack Chick about AD&D, so you are wrong if that is the case. other places have no money in it and just selling snacks to gamers as they play at $2 a soda isnt enough income compared to the $4.50 a booster from a CCG brings in.

WotC also played a part in this and only through the OSR does it seem SOME people are understanding older editions, added by the fact 4th was a flop being another good reason they are testing them to be able to keep customers happy that may have only played D&D and bought a few comics, who now may buy only the few comics, or go to a closer comic store without tablespace since there is no more D&D to play.


all things which i have seen. and the salesmen for 3.x are worse than car fucking salesmen trying to tell me why i should play 3rd and will like it. i never even asked then about the shit but like some fucking missionary they try to convert me. yeah i know i am that interesting but shit, fuck off with the shit i dont like or end up like all the rst being told why 3.x is a really shitting game for people incapable of understanding roleplaying. and i have done that to quite a few that try to assault me with persuasions towards 3.x that were uninvited. i dont go to tables of people playing WoD or YugiOh or even 3rd that they shoudl like 2nd more, i leave them the fuck alone, yet ALL of those people will surely try to mob you to sell you on their game. pushy ass fuckers. on thing i despise about 3rd and its players and lump them with the Yugioh and pokemon players.


anyway...what exactly was dead's point you claim?

With free programs like Skype or Google hangouts, there is no reason you can't connect with any of the billion+ people with fast internet connections. Even if you have to go to your local library, I think you could do it.

AD&D has NO online SRD for people to play from. there is finite access to the rules system of editions of D&D prior to 3.0. (see above)

i wouldnt add random people to a chat program i have for ANY reason. Teamspeak was good and NWN was good for non-PWs while they either functioned or were free, but everything going to pay or like NWN just ceasing to exist is not useful or helpful. D&D Virtual table was vaporware from the start, but why i so advocated for its importance when 4th was rolling out was because it is NEEDED with certain functionality.

library? i wonder if there is still one around here? i think they converted it into some kind of contemporary art museum for scrapyard trash being called art by rednecks with more cars in their yard and blowtorches than they knew what to do with the hours of the day. bars, plenty of those.. i dont drink and hate drunks. well this forum makes me need a drink every once in a while, but i still hate drunks! wouldnt play with ANYONE EVER that finds drinking a pastime.

[Leress]

tell me honestly how bad 2nd sucked since Baulder's Gate series was so popular even among none tabletop fans?

Never said 2e sucked.

tell me im wrong, but bring proof that is was SOLELY because of 3rd edition as a game system, NOT ANY other factor of the fast changing world at the time.

I never said solely. I can only bring some anecdotal evidence from my area (Vicksburg, then later Starkville, MS). I lot of people didn't like 2nd and wanted a new system, they tried out 3rd and really liked it.

[tussock]

but for some reason you say that WOTC should apologize for 3rd even though it brought a resurgence to PnP rpgs

I assume the DMA and rights issues still prevent them from really selling 1st or 2nd,

OK, first up, they are selling 1st edition core books, and they are selling 2nd edition core books, and they are selling 3rd edition core books. That may not be a sane business decision, but given they've stopped trying to sell 4th edition and have nothing else ready to market it's all they've got to try.

Tell me honestly how bad 2nd sucked since Baulder's Gate series was so popular even among none tabletop fans?

CRPGs are different: they remove all the ambiguity, all the prep time, all the MTP is changed to a menu-driven quest-giver system, and no one needs to play the Cleric. The most incredibly complicated combat system on earth is suddenly a one-click function for the player.

And no one will ever make another game like Balder's Gate. Bioware said the costs to create and bugfix games like that ate away basically all the income from one of the best selling game lines ever. They're simply not commercially sound, it was but a momentary labour of love for the guys making it, a blip in history. That's exactly why it sold well, nothing to do with 2e vs 3e.

The salesmen for 3.x are worse than car fucking salesmen trying to tell me why i should play 3rd and will like it. i never even asked then about the shit but like some fucking missionary they try to convert me.

Dude, you talk wrong-headed shit about 3e on the net, people gunna tell you how you're being wrong on the internet. You don't want to hear about 3e? Fuck off to dragonsfoot, no one there is allowed to talk about it for good or ill.

AD&D has NO online SRD for people to play from.

OSRIC. It is AD&D re-written to use the SRD. It is free, and it is supported by a couple of different companies to this day. Not to mention any of the other freebies, or something like Castles & Crusades if you want a polished and supported core system. Or ACKS, or whatever the fuck, there's dozens of them.

I wouldn't add random people to a chat program I have for ANY reason.

Jesus fuck, dude. Google+ hangouts are full of oldschool people playing various flavours of oldschool D&D, where you can take your fucking character and swap DMs every session if you care to until you find one you like, and you can totally read those people's life story before going anywhere near them. And drop out if it's not fun without anyone being all hurt or whatever. Get over yourself and get back into it.

Hell, you can DM however you like and you'll probably get people to play. Google it if you don't know how, because google is extra good at pointing you at google's shit.

[Chamomile]

For serious, you can just make a dummy account for Google+ or whatever. You can also use websites set up for no other reason except playing RPGs, like roll20, so that there will be no expectation of any actual social networking outside play. I'm not especially fond of any of the groups near where I live either, but since I have the internet I don't have to care.

[sabs]

I will mention that I was one of those people who did not like second edition very much, but came back to D&D when 3rd came out. And I mostly liked it.