Which is the least bad published D&D setting?

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:42 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
DSMatticus wrote:The quoted text actually does define the circumstances under which you are most likely to receive a visit from the Lady of Pain, and it's when the "very balance and stability of Sigil is threatened."
This would be a lot more convincing if 'the very balance and stability of Sigil is threatened' didn't apparently extend to things like praying, being in the wrong faction, or just trying to get a look at her.

It's like saying that the Imperium isn't that harsh because the only crime that they seriously punish is heresy. Well, guess what?

No, that's not what it's like saying. You're arguing that Planescape is internally consistent, therefore all those bullshit things the Lady of Pain does in Planescape source material is what they mean by a matter of Sigil's balance and stability. I will behead that argument just by saying the obvious: the 20 years of Planescape material are not internally consistent with eachother (we'd be lucky if even one Planescape book managed to be completely consistent with itself, honestly), and despite the fact that they try to set up the Lady of Pain as not being an interventionary douche they still have her being an interventionay douche all over the place. Like I said.

Again, my beef is not with the conclusion, which I think I made abundantly clear. My beef is that when you see some author/fan wanking about how ermahgawd awesome the Lady of Pain's powers, it's sketchy to read into that wankage as being plot/setting relevant. That description isn't there because the author wants to convey that the Lady of Pain goes on morning strolls through the city with massive death tolls - it's there because the author has no self-control or concept of subtlety and wants to bludgeon you with how awesome his character is. It's unfair to read in importance and consequence where there clearly is none, and when ammo is already so plentiful I don't even know why you would. Her entire raison d'etre is so the DM can arbitrary defend his setting against PC hijinks. The fact that above and beyond that the authors use her as a dickish DMPC in their own material every now and then is just the cherry on top to the fact that her explicit purpose is to make sure the PC's can't fundamentally alter Sigil, no matter what they do or how hard they try.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:06 am

DSMatticus wrote:My beef is that when you see some author/fan wanking about how ermahgawd awesome the Lady of Pain's powers, it's sketchy to read into that wankage as being plot/setting relevant.

The fact that above and beyond that the authors use her as a dickish DMPC in their own material every now and then is just the cherry on top to the fact that her explicit purpose is to make sure the PC's can't fundamentally alter Sigil, no matter what they do or how hard they try.

I don't find this demarcation of purpose very convincing. Because wanting to maintain the setting exactly as the author imagines it with no input from anyone else in any case is what drives many people to make these uber-powerful Mary Sues in the first place.

Immortal Elves weren't just put in the game because the authors wanted to masturbate to elven ubermensch. Rather, they were also put in to serve as insurance against authors and players doing anything that lowered or ruined the importance of elf wankery in the setting. In Lady of Pain's case this should be even more obvious, as she's a bit of artwork that got out of control rather than someone made to be a Mary Sue at the outset.

It's easy to see the difference between a Mary Sue who just exists to give the author a boner and one that has the dual mandate of cockblocking other contributions or alterations that they don't like. Elminister is an example of the former. Immortal Elves and LoP is the example of the latter -- granted, in the former case the Shadowrun authors are so inept that Tir Na nOg and other entrenched elven communities fail to achieve the desired effect, but you get the picture.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:13 am

for the Elminster argument, look at his analog. how long was it Gandalf was off doing other things after Bilbo had his birthday party before he returned to Bag End to seek Frodo?

Elminster NEVER has to appear in your game at all. people have hm, then complain they chose to have him, same as Drizz't. this is where the novel departs from the game, because the game can have Elmister et all off fucking with something else, and the players fucking with something MORE important, because the GAME is about the players. the NOVEL is about the NPCs. just leave the iconic NPCs out, never visit Shadowdale, have Elisstrae off on some task when the players visit Skullport and its surrounding area, etc.

you do NOT get to bitch about the amount of canon material if YOU choose to use it all. Toril is a mass of continents with types of people. YOU choose to put Waterdeep on the map, or not to. just stop trying to play out the fucking novels, and the problem is solved. use as much or as little as the world as you want. the land masses, environs, and races, and you still have Toril. maybe YOUR game the Red Wizards are no more, maybe Thay never existed, whatever. you don't need a spellplague to have the major NPCs from the setting not be in your game, nor do you need to say Mystra, her Chosen, and Lolth are of on a distant plane having an orgy. just don't include them. simple as that.

what would eberron be if you took everything away that held warforged together in that setting? what would planescape be if you only had the land and not any of the planar travel? Forgotten Realms, is a LOT more than Elminster, that is why you have a continent of dinosaurs, aztecs, asian cultures, etc...

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:08 am

Is it weird that despite there being almost no mention of Planescape in 4e at all the Lady of Pain features in one of the promotinal cartoons for 4e?

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:11 am

Sigil is described in one of the 4e sourcebooks, (I forget which though).

Secondly, what would be the impact of having the lady of pain made into a 20th level wizard, with maybe the quasi-deity template or something.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:08 am

darkmaster wrote:Is it weird that despite there being almost no mention of Planescape in 4e at all the Lady of Pain features in one of the promotinal cartoons for 4e?

I hadn't seen that one before. I hated those things when they came out for the bizarre choices they made (russian tieflings, beholders that sounded like they'd be the voice of a Bald Black Leader Dude), and now through the lens of time, I see they were the best part of 4e. Also, that might be perhaps the most accurate portrayal of skill challenges they could have written, as even when you try a skill that should totally work (The Lady of Pain seems the type by seduced by intimidation) you utterly fail because you make poor life choices (The Lady of Pain could not be intimidated into bed by any... well anything, really).

Also, it was impressive with just how audience-aware they were.

On the other hand they pronounced Sigil "sig-il," and should have a 20 lb OE Dictionary slammed on their nuts repeatedly.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:09 am

Wiseman wrote:Sigil is described in one of the 4e sourcebooks, (I forget which though).

Secondly, what would be the impact of having the lady of pain made into a 20th level wizard, with maybe the quasi-deity template or something.

Probably overall positive if you didn't use the Deities and Demigods rules.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:17 am

Prak_Anima wrote:On the other hand they pronounced Sigil "sig-il," and should have a 20 lb OE Dictionary slammed on their nuts repeatedly.

OH that is what the cartoon meant? i would not have known until you said so as i only ever think of it when i hear it correctly pronounced like Sid (as in the sloth) gel (like in cudgel). like a ward, mark, or sigil.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:38 am

shadzar wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:On the other hand they pronounced Sigil "sig-il," and should have a 20 lb OE Dictionary slammed on their nuts repeatedly.
OH that is what the cartoon meant? i would not have known until you said so as i only ever think of it when i hear it correctly pronounced like Sid (as in the sloth) gel (like in cudgel). like a ward, mark, or sigil.

It's really fucking sad when people who write fantasy don't fucking know how to pronounce sigil.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:53 am

weren't those bitey cartoons made by the same people that made the "game will remain ZE same" video that shit on ALL editions, by people in Canada? and they werent even trying to write fantasy, just shit all over every D&D player that existed like the Red Dragon interview.

basically they were approved by WotC to tell the players to FUCK OFF, we will do what we want, and we see how well that worked with 4th edition and the D&D pres (Bill S) and its core designers (Noonan) and in the end its PR people (Foster and Rouse). somehow Mearls survived along with Wyatt to continue being employed....for now.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:00 am

shadzar wrote:weren't those bitey cartoons made by the same people that made the "game will remain ZE same" video that shit on ALL editions, by people in Canada? and they werent even trying to write fantasy, just shit all over every D&D player that existed like the Red Dragon interview.

basically they were approved by WotC to tell the players to FUCK OFF, we will do what we want, and we see how well that worked with 4th edition and the D&D pres (Bill S) and its core designers (Noonan) and in the end its PR people (Foster and Rouse). somehow Mearls survived along with Wyatt to continue being employed....for now.

I'm actually more offended by the idea that dragons breath could cook meat in any way that would be considered palatable than any of the "take thats" to players in that video.

Of course it also just makes me want to run a dragon with kobold followers in my next D&D game, so...

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:54 am

Well, yeah, but like, cats and dogs can eat things we wouldn't find appetizing, hell cats can't even taste sweetness. So maybe dragons just find the taste of char to be palatable.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:56 am

You know, going back to the bit on Warforged, I think one of the biggest things about them is that they are not Adam/Pinnochio/Kurumi/Mahoro/Chii. They are actually mass-produced war machines, all built off the same template, as opposed to being unique beings, each the only one of their kind.

Now there's a lot of cider blocking my thoughts, but I can only think of one other thing that mass-produces its robots: Scarlet Blade.

D&D should either ditch Warforged and bring in "Experimental Creation" as a basic robotic thing, probably a net-zero template or something, or alternatively replace the Warforged with six different types of sex robot-girl race. I mean, if you're going to build a subservient lifeform, you're going to give them massive boobs, right?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:18 am

I believe the Cylons and the Terminators are also mass produced.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:22 am

Neither of those things are made by people.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:24 am

I'm pretty sure that both of those things were originally made by people, prior to taking over and making more of themselves.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:29 am

I'll take your word on the Cylons, good point on the Terminators. They were first man-made, then the robots probably made more. And by the flashbacks (flashforwards?) in the first movie, all of the ones not played by Arnold are actually the one-mind-one-purpose kind that makes them "not player characters", with him being the extra special one that stands out and is unique.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:42 am

Koumei wrote:I mean, if you're going to build a subservient lifeform, you're going to give them massive boobs, right?

Some people prefer smaller breasts. On a less tangential note...

Koumei wrote:I'll take your word on the Cylons, good point on the Terminators. They were first man-made, then the robots probably made more. And by the flashbacks (flashforwards?) in the first movie, all of the ones not played by Arnold are actually the one-mind-one-purpose kind that makes them "not player characters", with him being the extra special one that stands out and is unique.

That would be represented by them taking PC classes rather than just having their pre-programmed NPC class. (Warrior, MechaMeido, Sexbot, etc.)

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:59 am

Prak_Anima wrote:On the other hand they pronounced Sigil "sig-il," and should have a 20 lb OE Dictionary slammed on their nuts repeatedly.

It is actually pronounced Sig-il, and there's a similar line in one of the Planescape books.

Edit: I still think the Lady of Pain is less insulting than Elminster. You are not supposed to ever be the Lady of Pain. It's like, idunno, playing a star in a space opera. Elminster is just a dude who's arbitrarily better than you at everything, including fucking, despite being decidedly unsexy. The LoP is someone's imaginary waifu with an awesome hat; Elminster is literally this guy

(you're welcome)

slapping you with his cock.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:04 am

I double checked the dictionary before I posted to make sure I'd not been mispronouncing it myself. The word for funny magic circles is pronounced Sijil. Now, if the town is intentionally pronounced differently from that, that's fine I suppose, but also really dumb.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:05 am

Also, I'm fairly certain the terminators were designed and built by skynet, not humans.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:06 am

According, at least, to Terminator 3, the terminators were designed, built, and voiced by humans: http://youtu.be/kayFrIR-Qfw

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:09 am

Alright, point retracted.

silva · Post by **silva** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:35 pm

Yeah, I think the Lady is more of a stylistic factor, supposed be this embodiment of the city decaying spirit, to help players visualize the setting intended mood and atmosphere. And this is a big part of Planescape, really, this visual flair, this "decaying barroque" style that permeate the product visuals from Diterlizzi art, to the awesome Lady of Pain GM screen in the original Box, to the razorvine, the blades in the roofs, etc. Even the philosophical factions, I think, are supposed to reinforce this.

I dont think the same could be said for Elminster.

*Edit* by the way, I just found this cool pic of the Lady and want to share.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:47 pm

The Lady works to that capacity just as well when she's a legend, with maybe some circumstantial corroborating evidence, as when she's an actual person.

Also a quasi-deity wizard LoP would work just as well for that too.

edit:

Figured I'd do a tag search for Lady of Pain on tumblr to see if anything interesting popped up.

I found this:

Recently I had a group of players from my first (of three campaigns) go to Sigil and start digging around on the Lady of Pain.

I told the group to make a copy of their character sheets and bring it to the next game.

They continued to poke their nose in the Lady’s direction and continued to be really obnoxious about it - even after continued NPC urging that this was not something to be done because of the nature of the Lady.

Finally, at the end of the session I said, “Alright, everyone hand your sheets to me.” I had a pencil in my other hand as if I was going to scribble something special on their sheets.

The sheets made their way to me. I said, “As you’re going through Sigil, you spot the Lady of Pain as she moves through the street. People move far out of her way and are careful to not meet her gaze. Her placid expression comes to rest on the party, who as you’ve all said, are staring at her.”

Then I took their pile of sheets and ripped them in half, twice and dropped them on the table.

"You’re all dead."

I got six rage-filled dead-silent stares.

"The Lady of Pain does not suffer worshippers. She does not suffer mortals digging into her affairs. She does not suffer anyone."

I sat back down very calmly and said, “Now, if you’re all done trying to be badass in the cosmos and fuck with a being of such immense power that your existence is a shit stain in the scheme of things, we can continue in the Outlands.”

They realized that they still had their character sheets and that maybe some things are not meant to be fucked with.

I'd have punched that DM square in the dick.