[Ars Magica 5] OOC: It's PeIm for darkness, not PeCo

[Prak]

"Makeup on one side, nuts on the other"

I appreciated this.

I was really hoping someone would get it.

So, on the grogs thing. Could Nidratr's warrior grogs include some berserkers, since he's nordic?

Also, still waiting on a thumbs up on playing against Clan politics.

[Laertes]

So, on the grogs thing. Could Nidratr's warrior grogs include some berserkers, since he's nordic?

Also, still waiting on a thumbs up on playing against Clan politics.

Yes and yes, respectively.

[Prak]

Sweet.

[momothefiddler]

In terms of Hook and Boons, would the party like me to assign them or would you like to brainstorm them yourselves? I'm happy with either.

I think I'd like them assigned, since we're not picking the spot or anything. I've already pointed out the ones I thought made the most sense given the setup.

Does anyone have specific desires on the Income source (or is that already defined)? Given that the locals are interested in trading for manufactured goods, and that we'll be a lot closer than most places of trade, and that we're supposed to be "a seed for development", it seems Manufacturing is the obvious choice. Agriculture might work, given the soil stuff. Livestock is viable as proven by the people around, but it seems competition is nonoptimal, and our expenses are probably gonna be a log higher than theirs.

[Laertes]

So here are my thoughts on Hooks and Boons. This is an early draft, so please feel free to suggest different ones if you'd like.

Boons
Not everything that your covenant has counts as a boon. For example, if your characters build a massive building then you don't just gain the Edifice boon; if your income increases then you won't gain the Wealth boon. However, buying something as a Boon gives it a certain amount of "accident immunity": If you have a high income then it can drop just as easily, but if you have the Wealth boon then your covenant is thematically wealthy and that won't go away without major plot.
Aura. Due to the high background level of magic in the wild lands of Ruthenia, it's easier to find strong auras. Therefore you start in a +4 Magical Aura rather than a +3. This makes laboratory work and spellcasting within the covenant more powerful.
Ungoverned. Due to the slow decline of Kievan authority, the rivalry between regional princes, and the presence of Cuman tribes nearby, there is little central authority in the region. Even if that were not the case, however, the Ruthenians are a free folk and fiercely resent others imposing authority upon them, and this mindset carries over into the general politics of the region. The covenant has a freer hand with its affairs and can deal with nobles, tribal leaders and religious authorities on a more equal footing.
Writ of Crenellation. The covenant has been invited in by the Prince of Pereslavl, and given permission to construct a fortress. This is a closely-guarded right: denying the construction of fortifications is one of the main ways that the princes ensure the subjugation of their lessers. This may bring closer scrutiny from Quaesitors who are careful to ensure that you're not entering into feudal obligations.
Right. The covenant has been given the right to hold a market. Due to the size and openness of Ruthenia and the mobility of their population, the sort of serfdom which characterises western Europe simply does not exist here. Chaining the free Ruthenian folk to the soil in the style of France or Poland would be an exercise in futility. Instead, the princes exercise control through market fees, control of law courts and annual tributes on a village, town or tribal level. By giving you the right to hold a market, you are being given a certain degree of independence from economic dependence on the local towns.

Possible alternates in case you don't like those:
Cavalry. On the steppes, everyone is a horseman, because the alternative is not ever travelling. As the covenant adjusts to this and its own guards become horse-mobile, they will find themselves in possession of a powerful mobile striking or raiding force.
Local Ally: Faerie Queen. The court of the local fae is strong, and they travel widely through the area. Villagers feed them with milk and bread in exchange for farm labour. Many isolated farmsteads have hearth faeries which provide minor blessings and minor mischiefs, and are careful not to upset them. The covenant, however, is in a position to deal directly with their Queen. Each can help the other, and grow powerful as a result.

Hooks
Not every disadvantage a covenant has is a Hook. For example, if the covenant has a combination of covenfolk from different places, then that isn't a Divided Covenant: it's just a heterogenous population. A Hook is an invitation from the players to the GM to make story happen as a result of these factors. Therefore, pick the Hooks that you are interested in having stories result from. For example, if you pick Poverty then you're signalling to the GM that you want to play through stories about wizards doing things to make you mundanely wealthy. If you want it to happen offstage and not be a big deal, then don't take the Hook.
Hooks can change and can be exchanged for one another. For example, covenfolk dissatisfied due to a Divided Covenant can be brought together by giving them shared festivals, rights and duties. This results in you exchanging Divided Covenant for Rights and Customs, which provides stories of its own but of a different type.
Hedge Tradition. (Downgraded from Major to Minor for the purposes of starting play.) There is a significant population of local hedge magicians. Most are shapeshifters, folk witches and faerie doctors - self-taught riff-raff of no account or particular power. However, there is a tradition of nightwalkers, who use magic to communicate and train one another and therefore avoid the social penalty of The Gift. They are strongly ingrained into the Ruthenian population and have many mundane allies, and control significant supplies of vis and magical creatures. The covenant's relationship with them will be a significant factor in its future.
Monster. Winter on the steppe is harsh, and when the snow covers the black earth many will freeze, starve or go mad. During these times the White King is said to walk, a powerful death spirit who feeds off the desperation, loneliness and darkness of the winter. While he is not directly a threat to the covenant, they must tiptoe carefully around him - and should they seek to halt his depredations, he may become a direct threat.
Indigenes. A small core of servants, soldiers, craftsmen and carters have come with the magi. However, the majority of the people within the region will are Ruthenian, and the social difference between the new arrivals and the existing population may cause friction and resentment. Ruthenians are free folk and do not tolerate serfdom, while the covenfolk expect to occupy a privileged place and may behave as though they are conquerors.
Itinerants. The steppe is an open place, and a man who owns a horse can go where he pleases. Many tribes follow an annual circuit, driving their herds north in spring and south in autumn, trading and bartering as they go. When they encounter villages they may engage in commerce or they may raid them for cattle and slaves. Whenever the tribes pass through the covenant, stories result.

Possible alternates in case you don't like those:
Poverty. The covenant has no peasants and no manpower to spare to plow fields. Out here on the plains, trade is difficult and winter is unforgiving. Merely to earn enough to live in the manner befitting Hermetic magicians will require ingenuity and hard work.
Contested Resources. One of the covenant's vis sources is contested by a group of hedge necromancers. Fighting over it may weaken both groups and make them vulnerable to others, but it's a prize too precious to simply ignore.

[momothefiddler]

Boons:
Ungoverned, Writ of Crenellation, and Right all seem like very important, not terribly optional things.
Aura is nice, but I think Local Ally is better for the story than +1.
I'm not sure I understand how Cavalry will really figure into things.

Hooks:
Hedge Tradition and Itinerants sound like a bunch of fun with a lot of interesting options. Monster has some good options too.
Indigenes doesn't thrill me. I don't mind having some tension with the locals but I don't want it to be a large or recurring theme.
Poverty I was expecting. I suppose Right means it's not required, but I personally quite like the idea of playing stories about wizards having to deal with the mundane monetary struggles to start out. Is this Major or Minor Poverty, though?
Contested Resources... well, I'm hoping to handle Hedge Tradition in a positive, cooperative sort of way, and I feel like Contested Resources will make that less of an option. As long as it doesn't take it entirely off the table, though, I'm ok with it.

---

Also, is this different from how boons/hooks are handled in the books, or am I just misunderstanding? Because I remember reading something (Covenants, I bet) and getting the impression that boons/hooks are how you start out, and then things change. You get rid of your Poverty, you add some Buildings, whatever, and that's why covenants other than the PCs' at start don't need to worry about balancing hooks with boons.

[Laertes]

Those are all Minor Hooks; taking a Major for a covenant this small would totally dominate the storytelling, and that would be dull. By having an assortment of small Hooks, gaining money is an issue, but so is ensuring peace with the local hedge magi, dealing with the White King and coping with the excitement of nomads passing through.

Regarding Poverty, we'll assume that you've been given enough seed money for a few years, to get you started. It's not as though the old wealthy covenants in the Order's heartland aren't above sponsoring you a little. Also I don't want to make the whole theme of the campaign "Stop Being A Dirt Farmer, With Magic." There's other stuff out here to play with.

Regarding Cavalry, I think we may have to reskin it a little from how it's written in the book. It's less about the fact that you have some soldiers who can ride, and more about the fact that every peasant conscript you raise is going to know how to ride. You can assume a proficiency in horsemanship in your people, and that lets you do some tactical stuff that was unavailable otherwise.

Also, is this different from how boons/hooks are handled in the books, or am I just misunderstanding? Because I remember reading something (Covenants, I bet) and getting the impression that boons/hooks are how you start out, and then things change. You get rid of your Poverty, you add some Buildings, whatever, and that's why covenants other than the PCs' at start don't need to worry about balancing hooks with boons.

You're right: Boons and Hooks don't have to be balanced after chargen. Indeed, they're largely unimportant after chargen: it's a way of setting up a starting position.

It's probably worth spelling that out explicitly for people who haven't read Covenants: There will be problems that happen which are not Hooks, and there will be things you have which are not Boons. As the game progresses these things will change.

The choice of Hooks is more about asking players which things they want to have come up in play. A good example might be the Indigenes Hook. No matter what we do, the social divide between settlers and locals is going to exist and is going to turn ugly in a few cases. However, the question is whether this happens on screen and causes stories, or whether it happens off screen and is just referred to now and again in a background-colour way.

[momothefiddler]

What exactly is meant by "natural"? For instance, Rego Terram includes the following guidelines:

1: Control or move dirt in a natural fashion
2: Control or move dirt in a slightly unnatural fashion
3: Control or move dirt in a very unnatural fashion

The problem here is that my understanding is that Rego already can't do things that weren't possible anyway, so "unnatural" can't be talking about the end result or the net change or we'd have to use a different technique anyway (Muto in most of the cases I've tried).
Yet it can't be talking about the actual motion, because then level 1 is "do something that you don't need magic to do in the first place because it's happening anyway" and that doesn't make sense either. The best I can come up with is that "natural fashion" is something no-one would particularly disbelieve happening on its own, such as a mound of dirt settling or the top pebble in a pile of gravel rolling down to the bottom. Which seems kinda....
And even if that's right, what's the difference between slightly unnatural and very unnatural? I'd look at the spells for guidelines but Unseen Arm indicates that slowly lifting and moving things is apparently base level zero, Wielding the Invisible Sling indicates that throwing things is base level 3, and The Unseen Porter indicates that dealing with heavy things increases the level by 1, despite the fact that that sort of thing is already covered in Target and Size.

[Laertes]

(Drunken posting! Whee!)

Yeah, that bit is written unhelpfully. Here's how we play it.

If you look in the example spells as you've done, "unnatural" is basically a euphemism for "forceful." The Unnatural Porter and Ominous Levitation of the Weighty Stone can carry very heavy things, Wielding the Invisible Sling can hurl things very fast and Cresting the Earth Wave needs no further explanation. High unnaturalness is just another way of saying "forceful."

On the other hand, Unseen Arm runs off Base 1 and can only move things slowly and with not enough force to oppose any resistance.

Add an additional magnitude if you want it to "affect all matter but you may require requisites when casting", which is a Terram thing that shows up a fair bit. It's a fairly nice gimmick in that it lets you learn a single spell and therefore Master it, instead of having to relearn different versions for different Forms.

Therefore: The Unseen Arm is base 1, +1 for any matter (requisites required), for a total of Base 2 as indicated in the spell description.

The Unseen Porter is base 2 because it can lift heavy stuff but only slowly, has +1 for any matter as before, for a total of Base 3 as indicated. Note that its strength caps out at a certain level; this is where putting more magnitudes into Target or Size would pay off. You could totally build flying castles based on this spell.

Wielding the Invisible Sling is base 3 because it can throw things forcefully, has +1 for any matter as before, for a total of Base 4. Note that as with The Unseen Porter it caps out at a certain level, which you can add magnitudes to increase.

The Earth Split Asunder is base 3 but since it's only affecting Terram it doesn't need a +1 for additional types of matter, so stays Base 3. Similarly, Crest of the Earth Wave and Earth Shock.

Does that make sense?

[momothefiddler]

Mostly.

+1 for "All matter but you may require requisites" kinda messes me up here though. I presume that's only solids, as liquids and gases (and plasmas I s'pose) are outside the realm of Terram entirely. But even then, you get The Unseen Arm, which gets to explicitly affect metals for only +1. I don't know why I'd ever make a spell that could affect metal for +2 when it could instead affect any solid for +1. What's up with that?

[Laertes]

The Unseen Arm?

Slowly moves a nonliving thing, like a mug, instrument or small pouch of coins... casting requisites of an appropriate Form are required.

It doesn't sound like it explicitly affects only metals.

[momothefiddler]

No, but it DOES affect metal. AND other things. For only +1. If I made a similar spell to affect only metal, it'd be a magnitude higher because "Affects Metals" is +2 and "Affects Whatever" is only +1 and I don't get that.

[Laertes]

Apologies for the tone earlier. I was not sober.

Looking at it, actually, I'm not sure I get it either. I've looked over the sample spells and none of them add magnitudes for affecting stone or metal, but clearly we agree that they should.

I'm tempted just to offer to make a clear house ruling on this so that we both know what the rules are in this campaign and so can avoid Mother May I'ing it each time. Does that work for you?

[Laertes]

Prak, Leetkeis, the two of you are both playing Harmonist Bjornaer with Animal and Herbam. From the sounds of it Prak is more into a trickster with Creo and Herbam, whilst Leetkeis is more about roaming the wild lands with Intellego and Animal. So there's some differentiation there.

Nonetheless, I'd like the two of you to just confirm that you're both comfortable that the other one isn't stepping on your toes. I don't want either of you to end up as the other's de facto sidekick.

Also: Mask, have you thought any further about character? Any idea of what you'd like to do in terms of magics? The Gentle Gift often goes well with more social or person-controlling powers; but then, it goes equally well with spectacular attack magic because you can then ride a horse and have mundane companions along with you and it's great. You would be surprised how useful horses are, especially on the steppe.

[momothefiddler]

Apologies for the tone earlier. I was not sober.

Eh? I took no offense.

Looking at it, actually, I'm not sure I get it either. I've looked over the sample spells and none of them add magnitudes for affecting stone or metal, but clearly we agree that they should.

Well... I don't know if I agree that they should. I don't think I have a clear enough idea of the balance in the game to comprehend what effect that would have either way. For instance, it seems like the base sizes for Terram already include something similar - the same total spell level will affect a ratio of ~1:17246,656:466,560 (in volume) for gems:precious metals:base metals:stone:earth. Adding in the extra magnitudes makes that ~1:172466,560:46,656,000.
Does that affect game balance? Probably. How? I have no clue.

I'm tempted just to offer to make a clear house ruling on this so that we both know what the rules are in this campaign and so can avoid Mother May I'ing it each time. Does that work for you?

I think that'd be fine.

[Laertes]

Right, so here's a ruling for now.

Ruling, Part the First:
Drop the "Terram spells can sometimes affect any matter" stuff. From now on, spells affect their own Forms. It was an inconsistency anyway, this way is cleaner.

Ruling, Part the Second:
Rego Terram spells can affect Terram matter up to the type of material you put magnitudes in for. For example, a base spell can affect dirt, mud, sand, et cetera. One magnitude lets you affect stone as well as dirt. Two magnitudes get you metal as well as stone and mud. And so on.

Ruling, Part the Third:
A Rego Terram spell cast at Base 1 ("natural") moves slowly and with insufficient force to overcome opposition.
A Regi Terram spell cast at Base 2 ("slightly unnatural") moves with force, often considerable force, but cannot cause injuries or damage directly. It can lift things up to drop them, or move things to knock people off ledges; but it can't hurl a stone with enough force to injure, or to break stuff.
A Rego Terram spell cast at Base 3 ("very unnatural") can totally wreck stuff.

Consequences of Ruling:
Unseen Arm is now Level 10 so it affects metal.
Wielding the Invisible Sling now can't affect metal, only stone.
The Unseen Porter at Level 10 can't affect metal; alternatively you can take it at Level 15 so it can.
Earth Shock and The Earth Split Asunder now can only affect soil surfaces; a Level 35 version can also affect stone surfaces.

All the others seem, to a first look, to be unchanged.

[Laertes]

Prak:

I was playing Crusader Kings 2 earlier, and well, if you haven't decided what your other soldier grog is going to be like, may I suggest that it's this guy:

[momothefiddler]

So say I wanted a blacksmithing spell.

A basic one to turn a single not-huge (<1 ft^3) piece of iron(Or copper, or granite, etc.) into a product:
Base 1 (No need to overcome opposition or cause damage) +2(Up to metals) +1 (Touch) +1(Flexibility) = ReTe 5. Finesse as usual.

A more complex one to operate on multiple ingots (total <10 ft^3) and/or produce multiple identical products:
Base 1 (No need to overcome opposition or cause damage) +2(Up to metals) +1 (Touch) +1(Flexibility) +1(Group) = ReTe 10. Finesse as usual.

Do those seem reasonable?

[Laertes]

Go with Base 2, since beating iron requires considerable force. Also remember that Group is +2 magnitudes, not +1. This brings the first spell up to ReTe 10 and the second up to ReTe 20, which is what the Covenants book rates that spell at on p51.

[momothefiddler]

Hm.

A) Could a (Mu) tacked onto that make it reflect molding instead of beating? (Only important if my Re-Mu<5 anyway)
B) Maybe I didn't catch what qualifies as a lot of force. Can a base 1 ReTe slowly(EDIT: as in slowly enough that anyone who might have it dropped on them could casually amble away from it) lift a boulder of arbitrary mass, given sufficient Target+Size?

[Laertes]

A) Could a (Mu) tacked onto that make it reflect molding instead of beating? (Only important if my Re-Mu<5 anyway)

I think that would definitely work.

B) Maybe I didn't catch what qualifies as a lot of force. Can a base 1 ReTe slowly lift a boulder of arbitrary mass, given sufficient Target+Size?

Yes, it could, because "a lot of force" is relative to the size in question. However, either way you're just adding magnitudes to get the same effect.

[Prak]

Yeah, short of me coming up with another concept in the next day, I'm cool with another Bjornaer. I mean, I have no problem with it, but it's also always possible that I'll come up with another idea.

[Leetkeis]

Nonetheless, I'd like the two of you to just confirm that you're both comfortable that the other one isn't stepping on your toes. I don't want either of you to end up as the other's de facto sidekick.

I had planned to take Deft Form(Herbam), but anything other than Intellego would be low level. So in it's stead I shall choose Animal Ken or Study Bonus. In terms of combat I don't think we'll overlap at all.

[Laertes]

Don't take Animal Ken. If you've already got Intellego Animal then Animal Ken is a waste of points. It's a nice ability for grogs but is wasted on magi. Deft Herbam is absolutely kosher.

Also, thanks guys. It looks like we've got the makings of an excellent group here.

[Mask_De_H]

Also: Mask, have you thought any further about character? Any idea of what you'd like to do in terms of magics? The Gentle Gift often goes well with more social or person-controlling powers; but then, it goes equally well with spectacular attack magic because you can then ride a horse and have mundane companions along with you and it's great. You would be surprised how useful horses are, especially on the steppe.

I'd like to be something of a generalist, but Creo/Muto Mentem/Imagem is the spell pairing I lean to because I like the illusionist sthick. I still don't know the system very well so what would a combat mage involve? Rego Terram to drop stuff on people and Perdo Corpus/Creo Ignam to do more traditional blasting?

I'll probably be Ex Miscellanea and work as liaison between the Fae, the hedge wizards and whoever else. You can be an effective social character without mindfucking right?