Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[A Man In Black]

What the hell is a Paizil though? A Paizo member turned into a pretzel by the enemies?

Paizo - fail. 4rry (4e - furry) and Paizil are part of the legacy of roy. Fuck roy.

[GâtFromKI]

Didn't you said we shouldn't respond to Shadzar's Balls?

[A Man In Black]

Didn't you said we shouldn't respond to Shadzar's Balls?

It's a fair question.

[Starmaker]

You're flying. If the enemy is flying, you can't trip him.

The flight rules are a big pile of giant frog, but nowhere do they actually say that a flying creature can't be tripped. In fact, the consensus is that
1) flight rules suck celestial donkey balls, and
2) if a creature uses limbs for locomotion (clarification aimed at reducing frog size rephrases it as "if a creature is currently using wings for flying" - which, empirically, means that the creature has a flight speed not granted by a spell and doesn't have the Flight special quality), it can be tripped. If it's flying, it stalls.

Stalling is defined in the Minimum Forward Speed section of Tactical Aerial Movement:

Minimum Forward Speed

If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

While it is unclear when the creature falls when tripped (on your turn? on its turn? does it get a save?), it at least faces a threat of falling.

Also, you can trip a rider out of a flying mount saddle.

Tripping a Mounted Opponent

You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount.

Note: if "uses limbs for locomotion" is taken literally, Trip becomes crazy powerful, also COLOSSAL AMPHIBIAN.

[Shadow Balls]

What the hell is a Paizil though? A Paizo member turned into a pretzel by the enemies?

Paizo - fail. 4rry (4e - furry) and Paizil are part of the legacy of roy. Fuck roy.

Paizo and fail makes sense I suppose, but I'm not sure what part of the rest of that makes less sense.

Edit: A quick search shows Psychic Robot as using the term 4rry first and using it four times before anyone else did.

[GâtFromKI]

The flight rules are a big pile of giant frog, but nowhere do they actually say that a flying creature can't be tripped.

Pathfinder's trip rules:

Trip

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.

[Username17]

The thing to remember when talking about pathfinder is that if you have a way to stay vaguely relevant in the post bugbear world as a non-caster, Pathfinder has nerfed it. Even if the thing in question is incredibly obscure. Hell, especially if the thing in question is obscure. The corollary is that if you have some sort of stupid mage trick that lets you put the boot in, Pathfinder has buffed it in some way. So for example: Blink is nerfed for Archers, but not for conjurers.

This is all supposedly balanced by Pathfinder having selected about a quarter of the attack spells at random and crippled them. But if you just use other stuff, you're golden. Better than golden, since just for starters all Pathfinder casters get up in the morning with +2 to their casting stat.

-Username17

[Pseudo Stupidity]

So I do need to ask, Shadow, where is your wizard getting 8 hp/level from? 3 from HD, 3 from con, then toughness and favored class? Toughness just isn't very good until you've run out of shit to take (improved init, spell specialization, SF (conj) and augment summoning). You can find a good caster feat every level if you want without dipping into toughness.

Hilariously enough, non-casters stuggle to find feats that let them do anything relevant past level 6. There are feats like "holy balls, you can do slightly more damage in a grapple once everyone and their mom has FoM" that they seem to expect you to get excited about.

Not to mention half the feats in PF require improved unarmed strike because they want people to be monks, and monks still suck something fierce. During that time they add awesome caster options because awesome casters = awesome game.


Apparently my DM is a cheating cheater though, as he claimed the behir "burst up from the floor" so it must have been burrowing because behirs are fucking big. That encounter is only likely to get any melee character (or caster who gets too close) killed due to it being a rapist with only one thing it can do: fuck people up in grapples.

[Shadow Balls]

So I do need to ask, Shadow, where is your wizard getting 8 hp/level from? 3 from HD, 3 from con, then toughness and favored class? Toughness just isn't very good until you've run out of shit to take (improved init, spell specialization, SF (conj) and augment summoning). You can find a good caster feat every level if you want without dipping into toughness.

Ok, first you start with 16 Con (in addition to your 18 Int, that your racial bonus boosts) because you have no reason not to do so, and there is no penalty for doing so even on the weak 15 PB, which just makes non casters even more pathetic. Then you make your favored class bonus HP because there are no other options, and since you never have to multiclass or PRC you will always get it. And then, since there are even less restrictions on crafting you get a +2 Con item at half the normal price. Sure you could afford it anyways, but why not?

At that point you have HP = 6 + (3.5 * 7) + (5 * 8) = 72.5. I'm not sure why I said 80 before, I was getting another +1 from somewhere. You totally could take Toughness if you wanted, as caster feats are not nerfed which means that getting 3 free feats really does mean 3 free feats, but I didn't assume that. The other, higher number is because it's possible you've used that half price craft thing to get a +4 Con item early. Most wait until 9 for that, but it's possible to do at 8.

So 72 or 80 and not 80 or 88. Even so, easily enough to survive the Behir, especially since it is nerfed.

Hilariously enough, non-casters stuggle to find feats that let them do anything relevant past level 6. There are feats like "holy balls, you can do slightly more damage in a grapple once everyone and their mom has FoM" that they seem to expect you to get excited about.

This is why Paizo is synonymous with assbackwards. I mean, 3.5 had some dumbass feats too but PF really takes it to a whole new level.

Not to mention half the feats in PF require improved unarmed strike because they want people to be monks, and monks still suck something fierce. During that time they add awesome caster options because awesome casters = awesome game.

Hey, Monks give a great Flurry of Blows!

Edit: Behirs have a move speed of 40, a climb speed of 15, and a fly speed of 40. I don't remember its maneuverability, probably whatever half fiend is. But there is no burrow speed anywhere in there, which means your DM was a cheating bastard, and all the people that contracted the herpaderpies just to bitch about me never had any ground to stand on.

[Starmaker]

Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.

Sorry for the derp, I thought it was the 3E dragon thread.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Just depends on how the DM things the behir would do things. Reasonably it should be able to jump people as it's familiar with the terrain and not stupid.

You do seem to forget the One True Race for wizards in PF is elf, due to a free, stacking spell penetration along with bonus int, bonus dex, some silly free immunities and save bonuses against nasty spells along with a con hit. The elf wizard is (maybe) rocking a 14 con. Plus, people do half HD not average of the roll because nobody deals with fractions and decimals. The human feat is nice, but you're going to be getting spell penetration eventually anyways and you don't want the fucking skill point.

Elves are just worth more due to the bonus to saves against an entire school and some random immunities and some stupid skill boosts for trivial shit.

You generally have (3 + con mod + 1 (favored class)) * level as a wizard. You shouldn't be getting hit, so there's no reason not to pump your dex to get an even stupider init bonus and accurate rays. Elf is what gives you the +14 to init and never surprised wizard at level one. The game is rocket tag and you want to shoot your rockets first, the extra (level) hp is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

[Shadow Balls]

Just depends on how the DM things the behir would do things. Reasonably it should be able to jump people as it's familiar with the terrain and not stupid.

Sure. Thing is, 15 foot ceiling. So while it could climb onto the roof, you could also see it as it is literally right over your head. Actually, don't Huge creatures have a 15 foot vertical reach? They can't even do that, which means there's no place to hide in there at all as it's just an empty room with some rocks and bones piled against the walls.

You do seem to forget the One True Race for wizards in PF is elf, due to a free, stacking spell penetration along with bonus int, bonus dex, some silly free immunities and save bonuses against nasty spells along with a con hit. The elf wizard is (maybe) rocking a 14 con. Plus, people do half HD not average of the roll because nobody deals with fractions and decimals. The human feat is nice, but you're going to be getting spell penetration eventually anyways and you don't want the fucking skill point.

Elves are as shitty as ever. You don't care about SR, because you're a caster and have a long list of ways of bypassing it. That leaves you with the same Int boost you would get for being a human, or one of two other races actually and Con > Dex, no fucking contest, especially in PF. So you've proven that a shitty Wizard lost 8 HP for nothing, but that doesn't change the fact that you should play a Wizard that is not shitty. And that also gives you a free feat for something other than the thing that you can easily do anyways. Lastly averages matter because it's another 3 HP you are trying to shave off to support your argument.

Elves are just worth more due to the bonus to saves against an entire school and some random immunities and some stupid skill boosts for trivial shit.

+2 saves against the second weakest school of magic in the game. Or you can be a race that doesn't suck. Gee, let me think...

You generally have (3 + con mod + 1 (favored class)) * level as a wizard. You shouldn't be getting hit, so there's no reason not to pump your dex to get an even stupider init bonus and accurate rays. Elf is what gives you the +14 to init and never surprised wizard at level one. The game is rocket tag and you want to shoot your rockets first, the extra (level) hp is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

1: It's 3.5, not 3.
2: The Con mod is the big pull of that.
3: Init bonuses rain from the heavens. There is no need to invest in a shitty stat and introduce the accursed MAD to your character just to get your chance of going first from 99.5% to 99.7%.
4: High Con also means high Fort, so that when you fight other casters, and they throw DC fuck you Fort effects at you you are not made to partake in forcible intercourse.
5: As for the HP, it allows you to completely ignore non threats instead of wasting time, effort, and actions to negate them. That means everything from melee creatures to blasting spells and effects.
6: Rays are total shit in PF, which is the biggest reason why Dex is completely ignorable (though the MAD thing is a close second, Dex has never been a primary source of Initiative).

[GâtFromKI]

Sorry for the derp, I thought it was the 3E dragon thread.

No offense, you're not the only one in this case.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

You can't argue that casters shouldn't be getting hit (the behir misses the caster, always!) and then claim that high hp fucking matters. You also can't claim you care about hp damage monsters when you have mirror image up all the time (a spell designed solely to make it so anything but casting is worthless). You just can't have it both ways, Shadow.

You are seriously arguing that you ignore non-threats using your hp. If shit is hitting your hp then you're losing because you still don't have all that much of it. You're running counter to your argument of "casters never get touched" by saying "you need high hp." Pick a side, we're at war.

SR actually matters in PF because you don't actually have many ways to boost your CL to the heavens for more than one spell. Sure you can net a +1 CL item and +1 CL to a certain school, but beyond that you're struggling for it. Spell penetration is fucking necessary if you want to use any of the great spells that allow SR (Enervation, perhaps? Oh shit, it's also a ray and one of the best fucking spells you have) at mid-high levels.

The only ways to beat SR are CL boosting (which isn't easy and only applies to a few spells), a really shitty item (robe of the archmagi or whatever), the spell penetration feats and a +1 metamagic that gives you +5 to beat SR. You don't autopass SR on anything but mooks, and even then if you didn't bother going through spell penetration you aren't doing that. You have the feats to burn, you should get spell penetration eventually and the elf will come out on top because of it. At lower levels (when hp matters) humans are better, but once you cross into 6 or so there's no reason not to be an elf. You do your job better than the human.

The piddling +1 you're missing on your fort save for being an elf does not matter. "5% more of the time, when your enemy pulled off a fort save-or-die spell you were vulnerable to, you will lose" is far less important than "5% of the time, when you roll init, you will go before your opponent, likely preventing them from doing fucking anything at all."

As a kicker, just cast undead anatomy III if you're scared of fort saves. It's the mind blank of fort, and it also gives you the mind blank bonus to saves (in addition to DR, which solves your "i'm scared of HP damage" problem). It's only a 6th level spell.

[TOZ]

I really wish Paizo would add an 'ignore poster' feature. The one here makes the Den so much better.

[GâtFromKI]

Since the thread isn't about Pathfinder any more, can I ask what "TOZ" stand for?

[TOZ]

TriOmegaZero is my full username in most places. Sometimes I use the initials so people don't have to type the whole thing.

[Leper]

Terms of Zendearment?
EDIT: ninja'd, dammit.


Also: I have actually come to appreciate their lack of an ignore feature. I would have missed so many (unintentionally) hilarious posts if I had been able to ban people when I first signed up.

[GâtFromKI]

Oups, I didn't notice that "TOZ" was an alias of "TriOmegaZero" (on the Paizo's board). *ashamed*

[darkmaster]

Paizo has a board!? Is it made of mahogany?

More on topic, I keep getting a distinct, "fighters are worse because wizards are better" vibe. But are fighters really worse, strictly speaking? Did they actually get weaker compared to 3.5, or are wizards just so much better that staby types look worse?

[Juton]

Paizo has a board!? Is it made of mahogany?

More on topic, I keep getting a distinct, "fighters are worse because wizards are better" vibe. But are fighters really worse, strictly speaking? Did they actually get weaker compared to 3.5, or are wizards just so much better that staby types look worse?

Paizo put something like training wheels on most fighter classes. The people who suck at optimizing probably get a better character, at least a little bit. The people who can optimize will find that those training wheels get in the way. Monks still suck though.

[GâtFromKI]

Actually, if you look at it superficially, casters are weaker and fighters are stronger than in 3.5. Casters gain 2 HP/level and some shitty at-will abilities while some powerful spells are nerfed, that's not a boon.


... But the keyword is "superficially". the most powerful options of casters are more powerful than in 3.5, while the more powerful options of fighters are less powerful than in 3.5.

It means:

• if nobody optimize or take the "good" option, the game is more balanced than in 3.5.
• but the game is easier to break than 3.5. Actually, in 3.5 you needed to search for some combos to be an godcaster, in pathfinder you just use the best option as they are written, without searching for anything fuzzy.

I like Pathfinder, but this is the part I really hate. It's like they don't even try to balance anything. It's a known-fact that any system will break if you try hard enough, but in Pathfinder, you don't even have to try.

[Shadow Balls]

You can't argue that casters shouldn't be getting hit (the behir misses the caster, always!) and then claim that high hp fucking matters. You also can't claim you care about hp damage monsters when you have mirror image up all the time (a spell designed solely to make it so anything but casting is worthless). You just can't have it both ways, Shadow.

There is no contradiction.

Here is what I said:

Against the 3.5 Behir, which actually does a decent amount of damage you counter it by buffing at the entrance, so that most of those attacks miss.
With HP, you can ignore non threats instead of having to waste resources countering them.

Now you're still going to buff at the entrance anyways, because it's what you do before blazing through the dungeon. The fact that there happens to be a Behir just inside the front door, and that Behir just so happens to be massively nerfed is immaterial. You are doing exactly the same things as you'd normally do, and even if it hits you with everything, you won't care because it's only half or something.

You are seriously arguing that you ignore non-threats using your hp. If shit is hitting your hp then you're losing because you still don't have all that much of it. You're running counter to your argument of "casters never get touched" by saying "you need high hp." Pick a side, we're at war.

72 or 80 HP on a level 8 PF Wizard. Given that that is about the same as the PF Fighter, if not a bit better you are at worst, no worse off than anyone else defensively, and if you actively try at all...

See, that's the beauty of it. You have absolutely no reason to care about anything other than your casting stat and Con. So you run around with your buffed HP from having a higher Con and better Con item and being single classed and single attribute dependent, and now there's a lot more stuff you can ignore, or if it gets through you don't care.

SR actually matters in PF because you don't actually have many ways to boost your CL to the heavens for more than one spell. Sure you can net a +1 CL item and +1 CL to a certain school, but beyond that you're struggling for it. Spell penetration is fucking necessary if you want to use any of the great spells that allow SR (Enervation, perhaps? Oh shit, it's also a ray and one of the best fucking spells you have) at mid-high levels.

Then you aren't trying hard enough, and should also know better. Enervation is total shit in PF and is no longer worth casting, which is one of the big reasons why rays are no longer worthwhile.

The only ways to beat SR are CL boosting (which isn't easy and only applies to a few spells), a really shitty item (robe of the archmagi or whatever), the spell penetration feats and a +1 metamagic that gives you +5 to beat SR. You don't autopass SR on anything but mooks, and even then if you didn't bother going through spell penetration you aren't doing that. You have the feats to burn, you should get spell penetration eventually and the elf will come out on top because of it. At lower levels (when hp matters) humans are better, but once you cross into 6 or so there's no reason not to be an elf. You do your job better than the human.

And what job is that? Casting shitty spells in an inefficient manner that no one cares about? Because that sounds like all elves are good for, but that does not make them good.

The piddling +1 you're missing on your fort save for being an elf does not matter. "5% more of the time, when your enemy pulled off a fort save-or-die spell you were vulnerable to, you will lose" is far less important than "5% of the time, when you roll init, you will go before your opponent, likely preventing them from doing fucking anything at all."

That is not how either saves or initiative works. Here is how saves and initiative works. Initiative works by diminishing returns. You pile on all the shit that boosts Init, and then you're around +15 ahead, which means you have well over a 90% chance to go first on top of your free surprise round, and that is per person in your party. Since this is a PF game, your entire party is casters, which means the chance that you don't get at least one save or lose off before the enemy gets a turn is 1:10,000 at the absolute minimum, and is probably much lower than that. At that point the tiny, infinitesimal gains from wasting points in Dex will make no meaningful difference, especially given the MAD problem.

As a kicker, just cast undead anatomy III if you're scared of fort saves. It's the mind blank of fort, and it also gives you the mind blank bonus to saves (in addition to DR, which solves your "i'm scared of HP damage" problem). It's only a 6th level spell.

Damage reduction is terrible, and you should feel terrible for seriously recommending it.

Paizo has a board!? Is it made of mahogany?

More on topic, I keep getting a distinct, "fighters are worse because wizards are better" vibe. But are fighters really worse, strictly speaking? Did they actually get weaker compared to 3.5, or are wizards just so much better that staby types look worse?

The answer is both. Wizards got better and Fighter types got worse. That means that Fighters became worse both absolutely and relative to the party. Enemies were also buffed, but only in ways relevant to muggles which means that they also became worse relative to the opposition.

And the spell nerfs are just a distraction. In most cases they are not actually nerfed in any way that matters, and if they are you just use a different spell. So if you want to be a ray caster or a Necromancer fuck you, but that doesn't make casters any weaker, it just means that there are fewer playable builds to make. You don't even have to try.

[Mask_De_H]

Actually, if you look at it superficially, casters are weaker and fighters are stronger than in 3.5. Casters gain 2 HP/level and some shitty at-will abilities while some powerful spells are nerfed, that's not a boon.


... But the keyword is "superficially". the most powerful options of casters are more powerful than in 3.5, while the more powerful options of fighters are less powerful than in 3.5.

It means:

• if nobody optimize or take the "good" option, the game is more balanced than in 3.5.
• but the game is easier to break than 3.5. Actually, in 3.5 you needed to search for some combos to be an godcaster, in pathfinder you just use the best option as they are written, without searching for anything fuzzy.

I like Pathfinder, but this is the part I really hate. It's like they don't even try to balance anything. It's a known-fact that any system will break if you try hard enough, but in Pathfinder, you don't even have to try.

That's not even true superficially, though; I already (tenuously) argued for one of the Wizard's bullshit options being so poorly worded that you could use it to get items way out of your price range (and power level), while the Fighter's superficial extra bonuses are barely worth the feats they would get if they were 3.5 spec. Spells are still spells and feats are still feats, but it takes more work to get the collections of Fighter-only feats that make them worth a damn in PF since the old money options are either nerfed or no longer exist.

"Picking Incantatrix" isn't a combo. "Casting Glibness, then lying through your teeth" isn't a combo. "Color Spray or Sleep or Web" isn't a combo. "Wishing for a Ring of Three Wishes" isn't a combo. Hell, you can still do those last two, and one of the meaningless Wizard options lets you get a creature solely to be your bottom bitch for the Wish one. If nobody picks the good option in any system, then yeah, the game will be balanced around everyone sucking. That's not a valid reason to like PF over 3.5 because you can do that in 3.5 too.

Your superficial reasons for liking Pathfinder are demonstrably wrong.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Not to mention they brought back Necromancy save or dies with the suffocate/mass suffocate line of spells, despite the wizard nerfs. Does it take 3 rounds to kill? Yes. Does it incapacitate for all those rounds? Yep.