D&DNext: Playtest Review

[Lago PARANOIA]

If you win, you can move them 30', after that you make that 'contest' every round, unless you have them unsupported in the air....which... you will.

Large or huge critters can make a check regardless (though you are limited to critters no more than 2 sizes larger than you, so halfling casters are limited in magic fights, for no reason).

[Voss]

I'm still just confused that you can do this to a two ton elephant (though odds are good that you'll lose the spell at some point), but you can't do it to a 301 pound rock, at all. Apparently D&D agrees with Luke. Levitating spaceships is impossible. But bigger fish are possible.


Weirdest thing yet:
Generating stats
either 4d6 drop lowest
standard array (15,14,13,12,10,8)
or point buy

... but point buy caps at 15. You get 27 points, all stats start at 8 and the costs are
1 point for 9 to 13
2 for 14 and 15 (so 13 is 5, 14 is 7, 15 is 9).
Can't buy higher than 15. Which means a human can have an 18 with race and class bonuses, and up to to 16s, everyone else is capped at 17 and 2 15s, or two 16s and a 15.

Weird shit. Plus it means a lot of people bitching and whining for rolled stats, because point buy effectively functions as a power limiter.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Concentration is in how to play.

It works by "you can only have 1 concentration spell up at a time" (but can still cast non-concentration spells apparently) and if you take damage you make a Constitution check equal to half the damage dealt. There's some other checks too.

So Fly is somewhat more dangerous to use, but you can still Stoneskin and Mirror Image it up before flying around and blowing up dudes.

Except evocation still kinda sucks.

[Voss]

Yeah, I started looking over spells. Magic Missile has a weird clause about preparing it as a higher level spell for extra missiles, so while fireball is 5d6 in a radius, MM is 6d4+15 to a target (or 2d4+5 to 3). Thats pretty much the limit of what evocation can do. Especially since cone of cold is fucking worthless (really, a 5th level spell does 4d6 damage in a 60' cone? That shouldn't even make it into a playtest doc. Hell, a 10d4+25 magic missile is better than that crap). Cloudkill does slightly more damage every round for 10 minutes. Dominate ('Go home') and telekinesis (take weapon, lift) blow both out of the water, even with their limitations, because you can literally just remove enemies from combat, even if you don't try anything creative.

Wall of fire has the most potential (of evocation spells) but like a lot of duration spells, is concentration. But in general I would say evocation more than kinda sucks... it is actually worse than it has ever been at everything but minimum level, which is baffling.

Illusion on the other hand.... shit. So much flexibility, just in minor illusion, let alone shit like phantasmal force. And shoving the DC at level 1 up to 17 (assuming you're human and an 18 int). Plus if you really want it, there is nothing preventing you from just having a fireball in your pocket if you really need it. Not sure why shocking grasp is one of the illusionist's at will spells, however. Mage hand can be worked into illusion shenanigans, but a touch zap isn't a default option I'd really care about, even if it is nice to have direct damage every so often.

Some of the spells are really bizarre. Color spray for example, has a fair amount of options, but since #2 allows them to choose ranged or melee (and random targeting), and #3 lets them not move if they are threatened, the only obvious one to hit people with is blue, since it drops disadvantage on their heads. The others can have tactical advantages at times, but having the opt out of red is just stupid. If you've got three adjacent goblins, it could be good, but then they all opt for thrown dagger attacks, and the number of potential targets shoots way up.

Polymorph is potentially a headache or ridiculously powerful, depending on how you want to interpret things. As written, however, there isn't anything stopping you from turning the lead party member into a medusa at the beginning of combat, especially if you've won the surprise round.

[Voss]

Monster design:

I don't know whats going on here. Literally. A whole shitload of monsters are just punching you with their basic stats + either a weapon or fucking random damage dice (which also gives an average value if you don't want to roll). But... others ... aren't. And I can't tell why.

Examples:
Flesh golem : 18 str, +4 attack, 4d6+4, fisting damage
Orc 14 str, +2 attack, 1d12+2, greataxe
Hobgoblin 10 str, +2 attack, 1d8+0 ,longspear
Phanaton 13 dex, +2 attack, 1d4+1, dagger
Treant 23 str, 8 dex, +6 attack, 5d6+6 megapunch, OR +1 attack, 3d8+6 rock ranged attack
and the real confusing one:
troglodyte 10 str, 9 dex, +0, 1d6 claw, +0 1d4 bite, +0 1d8 club OR +3 1d6+3 javelin. What?


Its just odd. Some things just randomly have an extra +0-3 to hit on top of their str or dex bonus. But other things in the same categories don't.

And I don't even know how hit dice and level relate.


The hydra, by the by, is fucking hilarious. If you do 15+ damage in attack, you can choose to take a head off, rather than dealing damage. If it has fewer than five heads, it can regrow two, then immediately make bite attacks with every single head. It only has 73 hit points, so I have no idea why you wouldn't just kill the thing, rather than give it an opportunity to gain more attacks then it had.

[Previn]

Monster design:

I don't know whats going on here. Literally. A whole shitload of monsters are just punching you with their basic stats + either a weapon or fucking random damage dice (which also gives an average value if you don't want to roll). But... others ... aren't. And I can't tell why.

Monsters in 5e are designed like 4e, slap random stuff together that looks like it's in the right range and roll with it. They're only loosely related to the system mechanically and are in no way designed the same as PCs.

The hydra can one-shot at 6th level character every round with it's normal attack, so you probably were supposed to have to cut off a head or two if you can't kill it first, and hope it doesn't regrow them to prevent it from one-rounding players. As it starts with a charge of regrow+bite, it's always a losing proposition to cut off a head rather than do damage as you essentially assure that the thing will kill someone.

[Voss]

I think its just the lack of consistency. Attacks seem to be roughly +2 per 3 levels, with a little bit of variation, Its just sometimes that is entirely stat based and sometimes they just threw up their hands and said fuck it, give it a +2. It wouldn't be quite so bad if the low levels weren't eleventy-six different varieties of humanoid, levels 4-6 weren't largely 'critters that multi-attack' or do big damage, and levels 7-9 were largely balls of fuck you and a giant ape. The treant, for example, is a fucking ambush predator that clones itself. One minute you're walking through a forest, next moment you're fighting triple hulk.

Plus you've got at least three 'fuck you' monsters- basilisk, medusa and mind flayer. Everything else on the same level is a joke in comparison.

[Koumei]

Can anyone remember any of the fake leaked playtests? Were they better than this is turning out to be?

The sad thing is, this isn't "Someone has an idea of what they want. Sadly, it's a crappy idea/they're incompetent" (4E), nor is it "Intentionally awful. They put effort into making this suck" (early White Wolf). It's just... they put literally no effort in, and don't know what they want. They're not even trying.

[K]

Can anyone remember any of the fake leaked playtests? Were they better than this is turning out to be?

The sad thing is, this isn't "Someone has an idea of what they want. Sadly, it's a crappy idea/they're incompetent" (4E), nor is it "Intentionally awful. They put effort into making this suck" (early White Wolf). It's just... they put literally no effort in, and don't know what they want. They're not even trying.

No, it's pretty obvious that they are trying to get the community to write 5e DnD for them.

The problem is that a handful of contentious 2e grogards are the only people still invested in arguing online for things because everyone actually interested in a new version of DnD abandoned it after looking at the first few playtests.

This is also why it has no vision or overarching direction. Crowdsourcing is merely filling in random bits and then trends in the community are voting some parts down based on whoever is loudest at the time, so there is no metric for actually usable subsystems.

Basically, it's the worst possible way to build a large, complicated, and interconnected system. They are trying to build by evolutionary algorithm except it's being culled at random in only a few generations, so basically evolution can't happen because both key components of evolutionary theory are missing (non-random selective pressure and many generations).

[Voss]

What they should have is a solid design doc and get (some) feedback on it while maintaining creative control.

This... eh. If they were responsible people, this can't come out next year. It is a mess. And they're fucking around with two many optional subsystems to be effective. One of those blog posts was seriously talking about a 'rules-light' version of this fighter. I'm not even sure how that can happen (let alone who the fuck wants that), since beyond attack, damage, AC and hit points, it does very little beyond add or subtract an extra random number, or generate a limited result on a failed roll.

But they want consistent feedback from (at least) 3 or 4 subgroups that will not and can not agree. It is made worse by a desire for emotional responses (this feels like D&D!) over any sort of analysis. Mearls and company can't determine which group they want to please, so they're throwing shit at the wall, showing it off and going back to their one core concept: small numbers mean everything is automatically balanced.

Plus they've got a level based system that has almost completely abandoned any sort of real progression, while containing major power areas that either aren't covered well by rules or just grossly ridiculous compared to the numeric values. Phantasmal force murder traps* and polymorph medusa bombs sit next to fire rays that do 20 damage or cones of cold that do 4d6.


*something like 80-90% of opponents will fail to realize your bridge over the canyon/pit trap/whatever is an illusion and will die, because they have to make two successful dc 17 checks, likely at a +1 or +2 bonus. Even just having it do direct damage is 2d4 automatic damage for 10 minutes. You can seriously hit a level 9 dragon at level 3, watch it fail to roll a 16+ twice, and make it think its being killed by bees for 10 minutes. Thats roughly 500 damage over the spell duration. Once it fails the initial check, there is no out other than killing/disrupting the caster, who will presumably turn invisible and go home.

[Josh_Kablack]

No, it's pretty obvious that they are trying to get the community to write 5e DnD for them.

That's beyond stupid.

They could just pick one or three guillible volunteers to do it for them, and have ready-made scapegoats that way.

[K]

No, it's pretty obvious that they are trying to get the community to write 5e DnD for them.

That's beyond stupid.

They could just pick one or three guillible volunteers to do it for them, and have ready-made scapegoats that way.

Don't be silly. They can't take all the credit AND have scapegoats.

That's why they are doing it piecemeal. Stealing small ideas from dozens of people, filtering it through anonymous forums, and doing blind surveys means that no one else can legitimately claim that they should get credit or be paid.

I think that Monte was supposed to be the scapegoat and cat's paw, but he tricked them all and bailed before the disastrous first playtest so their failure-stink would not stick to him.

[Voss]

No, it's pretty obvious that they are trying to get the community to write 5e DnD for them.

That's beyond stupid.

They could just pick one or three guillible volunteers to do it for them, and have ready-made scapegoats that way.

Che. They've got scapegoats. 'This is what D&D fans told us they wanted' is embedded in the entire process.

Given that 4e has been essentially dead for... 8 months now (elemental chaos came out in Feb, and that was pretty much the last rule book, I believe), they can make all sorts of bullshit claims about sales figures comparing the relaunch to a dead line and hope that passes muster at WotC (Hasbro may not even notice the D&D sales figures under the Magic figures)

[tussock]

@Yoda: Muppets are ever so much better than CGI. Muppet movie, $30 million. CGI movie, $300 million. Makes a lot of sense.

5e, there's another doc? How signed up do I have to be? I suppose they only want people who visit their website all the time or something. Insider people.

[Voss]

I just gave them a random email address around 6-8 months ago. they send a link (which is inexplicably the new accounts page, with an option to go to a sign in page), and after going to that, there is a link with download file.

It isn't a big deal, really.

[tussock]

Right, the update link is the step they keep not sending me. I've checked the junk box at the ISP level and everything. Mayhaps it's just my head stuck up my butt again. Happens.


Ah well, best thing about 5th edition will be the updated dinosaur art. Bright, feathery dinosaurs flapping and squawking over their young, and dull, furry pterosaurs plodding around like girraffes on all fours. Though dragons will probably still have shoulder muscles like a human, rather than a big cat, at least they've had a proper breast bone since 3e.

Armour will probably be spikey though. Weapons all great lumps of things. Ah well.

[sake]

Oh how nice, they felt the need to remind us that they're horrible at coming up with fluff too...

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx ... e/20121107

the core Halflings are more or less fucking Kender now.

[hogarth]

Oh how nice, they felt the need to remind us that they're horrible at coming up with fluff too...

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx ... e/20121107

the core Halflings are more or less fucking Kender now.

Huh? Kender don't look anything like that, except maybe "child-like".

They look like gnomes to me.

[Username17]

Oh how nice, they felt the need to remind us that they're horrible at coming up with fluff too...

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx ... e/20121107

the core Halflings are more or less fucking Kender now.

Huh? Kender don't look anything like that, except maybe "child-like".

They look like gnomes to me.

Gotta agree with hogarth here. People cry "Kender" pretty much every time the Halfling is redrawn. Because they hate Kender. And with good reason.

But Kender are really only defined by a few visual traits.

• Human proportions.
• High foreheads.
• Pointy ears.
• Between 3 and 4 feet tall.

The 3e Halfling is thus genuinely rather Kender-like in appearance. The 5e one they are throwing around doesn't look a damn thing like that. But yeah, making them look like children in a Pixar movie means that they basically look like Gnomes. Small bodies/big noses. Gnomes.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

Wait, does the poll at the bottom mean that 5e is also crowdsourcing fluff and art direction? Or am I reading too much into a marketing ploy to get fanboy buy-in be pretending to care about opinions on matters already decided?

[Username17]

Wait, does the poll at the bottom mean that 5e is also crowdsourcing fluff and art direction? Or am I reading too much into a marketing ploy to get fanboy buy-in be pretending to care about opinions on matters already decided?

The art direction choice is basically decided. The poll is vague enough that if any of the poll responses gets a giant influx of votes that it can be waved away with a handwave and a half-assed bandaid. Consider the picture they gave us:



Now there are many things you could say about that:

• I don't like the little feet.
• I don't like the really broad face.
• I don't like the giant nose.
• I want the pointed ears back.
• What the hell is wrong with her boobs? I mean, they stick out at an angle that is different from the angle her chest is pointed in, but they still go together. Is she having a padded bra fall off?

But the actual answers they give you are:

• I think the feel of the halfling is spot on.
• I think that the halfling misses when it comes to the idea of a culture that holds home and community in high regard.
• I feel the halfling is lacking a childlike innocence.
• I'm really missing the idea of nature in the world of the halfling.
• I have additional comments, and I'll write them below.

See, all of your marked options have literally nothing to do with the newly assigned body mechanics. You know, the things that are literally 100% of the new art direction for the race. If for some reason a complaint about nature or community or some shit gets a big bunch of votes, they can put a hat on the sample halfling or change the color of their sash to brown or green and call it a day. Any substantive comment would therefore have to go under "additional comments", which can be counted upon to not be anything like a plurality of the vote without a massive and organized letter writing campaign.

So while they have nominally put the art direction up for a vote, they've also put it up for a vote in a way that it can't plausibly be voted down. No matter what people say, Mike can claim a popular mandate to pretty much do whatever it was that he was going to do anyway. Democracy!

-Username17

[shadzar]

This poll like others indicates that Jon is not just designing the art, but trying to design D&D itself and decide how things work rather than shut up and draw the pictures he is told to draw.

But Kender are really only defined by a few visual traits.

• Human proportions.
• High foreheads.
• Pointy ears.
• Between 3 and 4 feet tall.

try:
-halfling in most every way with more human proportions
-topknot
-elfish ears
-wears shoes

high foreheads... the forehead being revealed because no hair is there makes you think and say that. you say bald people have high foreheads cause you can see them? tell a female without bangs she has a high forehead cause you can see it?

Jon just needs to stop trying to design D&D and draw the pretty pictures he is supposed to do and keep his hands out of the rest, he really sucks at it.

[Leress]

Looks like rejected artwork for the game Bastion.

[codeGlaze]

Can't do much right now as far as reading it, but here's the first thing I noticed.

Invisible

• The creature is impossible to see. For the purposes of hiding, it is heavily obscured. The creature can still be detected by the noise it makes, the tracks it leaves, or the shadow it casts.

Bolded for emphasis. That is really weird.

I can see where they MIGHT be coming from. Like a person in a suit that mimics everything behind it perfectly. Except the person is still, you know, physically present and blocking light.

In short, it's not bending light around the caster or something to that effect. It's, at the very least, an interesting spin on invisibility.

[sake]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. It's not the art, which is just merely bad and radiates 'Now that the Hobbit is a big deal again, we're gone back to making Halflings look as much like them as possible without getting sued' It's the stuff about making 'child-like innocence' an important part of the design of them.

But yeah, the tiny little feets thing is just fucking hilarious. "See? See? We gave them the exact opposite of hobbits' most iconic feature! That means you can't sue us! Right? Oh god please don't sue us! Please! Hasbro says our entire division is getting cut and replaced with a My Little Pony RPG if we screw up again!"