The Gaming Den

I like this. I am learning more about the business of creating gaming books and such just by listening to you two. Talk about a free education. I know just enough already to understand what you are saying for the most part, and can parse the rest from context.

This is great. Much better than hollering at each other, even if I am only learning what not to do when producing such things.

Cent13

I was pretty much completely turned off on the idea of commissioning art after the writing was finished by watching it happen through Street Magic and Augmentation. Many of the pictures have little to do with what the art requests originally were, and almost none of them were really contingent on what the specific writing ended up being. In both books, I think there is one picture that ended up substantially different than it would have been had all the art been commissioned at the beginning. It's the picture of the little girl versus the spirit on page 106 of Street Magic. It illustrates the SR4 version of True Names instead of the SR3 version that probably would have been commissioned had the art been requested at the beginning.

Seriously, that's it. It's a decent enough picture, but for fuck's sake, we ended up holding the book for an extra 2 months over this sequential work order crap. Everyone would have been way happier had the art been commissioned at the beginning. Just think: if the art had been commissioned at the beginning instead of the end, we could have sent the cover of Augmentation back for a redraw on account of it being terrible.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:I was pretty much completely turned off on the idea of commissioning art after the writing was finished by watching it happen through Street Magic and Augmentation. -Username17

Mmmm. My tiny experience with text and art has been that the structure gets decided and the outline done, then the writing is begun and as it goes along, the art gets plugged in.

It is possible, if you nail it down in the outline, to have the art being done while the writing is in progress, but unless you are willing to be a ruthless SOB and keep everyone on schedule, it will eventually fall out of sync and one or the other will drag the project into overtime.

How do successful publishers do it, Frank? I could use a lesson here while we wait for the rascals to be thrown out.

Cent13

Both WotC an White Wolf used to have banks of artists cranking out genre stuff all the time, and most of the art going into any particular book would just be genre stuff that happened to fit. Of course, I don't think we can reasonably accuse White Wolf of being successful anymore.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:I was pretty much completely turned off on the idea of commissioning art after the writing was finished by watching it happen through Street Magic and Augmentation.

There's a major difference between the process that was used during the SR4 B&W era, and what was used for SR4A and Eclipse Phase (and is still being used for EP -- don't know how Matt is handling things at Catalyst now). For the B&W books, the artwork was contracted before or during layout, and layout had to fit the art according to the placement notes that either the author or developer put in. This could lead to problems, especially in the cases when artwork was delivered in the wrong dimensions, or when the desired placement of artwork was awkward -- pieces too close together, pieces too close to multiple sidebars, etc.

The Eclipse Phase process gets around those issues by doing the layout first and building the art specs from there. It does require that layout is done further in advance than the other process, but we've started using InCopy which allows the developer/editor to work more directly on the text after layout has started, which greatly cuts down the time we need to input corrections. This arrangement also helps prevent the situation that happened with several SR books where the wrong amount of artwork was contracted.

Is it bulletproof? Nope. But I'm a lot happier with the end result of books done with this process.

adamjury wrote:The Eclipse Phase process gets around those issues by doing the layout first and building the art specs from there. It does require that layout is done further in advance than the other process, but we've started using InCopy which allows the developer/editor to work more directly on the text after layout has started, which greatly cuts down the time we need to input corrections.

This is what I had in mind when I began my own efforts at a fan TRO. The layout art is the only problem - and of course, with the amount of time which has passed, neither art nor writing will hold us up.

But that plan is what I began with, and it would have worked well.

Cent13

Why don't they just commission artists at the same time as writers, and put them in the same meeting? Artists can say, 'this would look cool' and understand some of what was being slung about, then make whatever while the text is being written.

Then you'd have both available at the same time. And the artists might actually care about the result.

It's not like there aren't starving artists out there doodling and not getting paid for it.

With big-budget projects you usually hire the artist first, and throw out half of what they create. That's why good movies always have tons of concept art.

-Crissa

Because it takes months to write a book, and sometimes writers change their mind or come up with cooler ideas.

So do artists.

-Crissa

Crissa wrote:Why don't they just commission artists at the same time as writers, and put them in the same meeting? Artists can say, 'this would look cool' and understand some of what was being slung about, then make whatever while the text is being written.

Text being written is one of the first steps of a book's production, and at that time the book is still really malleable. Tons of things could happen that might require the art specs to change -- including content changes, size changes, organizational changes. I've seen books that have had entire chapters scrapped, multiple chapters combined into one, etc.

It would be awesome to be able to commission 75 pieces of art in advance, some based on our art notes, some based on letting the artists run wild with the setting -- and then only use the 50 that are best, and hold the rest for later or scrap them -- but for most tabletop publishers, that isn't financially feasible. For most of us, we have to build our stash of "concept/reference art" as we go, and as we need those pieces in a book.

I absolutely agree that the more an artist likes and understands a setting, the better their work for it is going to be.

FrankTrollman wrote: Just think: if the art had been commissioned at the beginning instead of the end, we could have sent the cover of Augmentation back for a redraw on account of it being terrible.

-Username17

So that's why Augmentation has what looks like awful Poser art on the cover.

I'm curious - me and most of the people I know don't really give two shits about the artwork inside of a book, and give roughly exactly two shits about the artwork on the cover. I mean, when I'm reading a gamebook and there's nice art, I'm like "hey, nice art," but it doesn't really impact how much I like the book.

Are there a lot of people (or at least, enough of them) that really do care enough about the quality of non-illustrative artwork in RPG books to justify that amount of effort and money (in particular, stuff like holding up printing for two months to get art that fits in better).

I've bought some books just because the artwork (cover or interiour) was good.

UmaroVI wrote: Are there a lot of people (or at least, enough of them) that really do care enough about the quality of non-illustrative artwork in RPG books to justify that amount of effort and money (in particular, stuff like holding up printing for two months to get art that fits in better).

Yes. People do judge books by their cover.

Two months delay, though? Eh, depends on what you get compared to what you're replacing. The artwork for the 3.0E PHB2 and OA have some really nice pictures in it. If what they originally were going to go to the presses with had Complete Divine or Book of Exalted Deeds-level of artwork quality then waiting an extra two months would have been worth it.

This is especially true if you have a low-sourcebook production outfit like Shadowrun. Yeah, it does piss off fans to delay books but if you're trying to pitch your product to an audience that is ignorant of or agnostic to your line then good artwork really, really helps. Especially considering that I can see a lot of people buying only the main book and Augmentation.

UmaroVI wrote:Are there a lot of people (or at least, enough of them) that really do care enough about the quality of non-illustrative artwork in RPG books to justify that amount of effort and money (in particular, stuff like holding up printing for two months to get art that fits in better).

Yes, me, for example. The reason why I bought Pathfinder Core was because I really liked the artwork in it.

Additionally, good artwork invites people to browse and buy spontaneously. People into the system or setting will buy the book based on the content, obviously, but good art is a good way to get new people to buy a book.

There was an 3.0E PHB2?

Yes indeed.

Nope 3.5, that one I did know.
So it was an typo from Lago?

Ah, I misread your question. No, I don't remember a 3.0 PHB II.

So art is more of a "lure people into buying the book by having a picture of an awesome robot on the cover, then watch them cry as they discover that you can't actually play an awesome robot" type of thing? I can see how having a pretty cover, and pretty art when you flip through the book, would help sell.

What about stuff like making sure that interior art matches up with the corresponding writing in the book, versus just being really pretty? Is that worthwhile, financially?

Yeah, I think it is. Art is evocative, it accesses different parts of the brain than what you use to read. Really good art, presented correctly, complements and reinforces the text, enhancing the experience of reading the book. The best example I can think of off the top of my head is Clanbook Baali from Black Dog Games for oWoD. Love it or hate it, the art really sets off the tone of the book - the whole thing was designed to squick, and I think it succeeds. The book wouldn't be nearly as effective without the distinctive art.

People used to buy the tech books from Cyberpunk 2030 just for the pictures. Something and Chrome... They had chrome covers and a very few color pages in them?

-Crissa

I've had more than one person get into HERO 6E because of some really killer art.

I really liked the old SR Canon Companion/German Arsenal Art style.
Some genuinely funny pictures in there that somehow fit the style ^^

For example the guy in the Tank-Hatch on the MG looking surprised/concerned at the missle aimed at the tank 1m below him.
Or the same guy(i guess) shaking a dead body only to have the head fall off to reveal some explosives with a blinking light in there with the same expression.

I will always love, "MEAT AND POTATOES" on p73.

I'm not sure who that artist is, but the quality and ubiquity of their art in SRv3 has tied them into the actual RPG for me.

mean_liar wrote:I will always love, "MEAT AND POTATOES" on p73.

I'm not sure who that artist is, but the quality and ubiquity of their art in SRv3 has tied them into the actual RPG for me.

I'll admit, i don't really get that, but yes, the picture is pretty nice.