Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:24 pm

But don't we all need some trolling every now and again?

Off to the Paizo boards, though I truly hate their layout with a burning passion.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:29 pm

Hmm just for fun, lets see what a cr 10 half fiend-behir does if converted in pathfinder with a suprise round on a good wizard.
First of all, the conversion leaves him a cr short so we're just going to add the advanced template for the easiest resolution.

It is going to smite and charge the wizard in it's suprise round, because wizards are dangerous, if it can't charge substract 2 from attack & cmb.

Since he's attacking a wizard he'll ofcourse power attack, and if the wizard has mirror images up, he's going to close his eyes for the 50% miss chance, because you need to gib a wizard quickly.

15 + 2 str(from advanced)+ smite 3 -power attack 3 +2 charge = + 19 bite for 2d6+9 + 3 (str from advanced) + 9 PA + 10 smite
CMB to grapple at +22 + 2 (str from advanced)+3 smite -3 PA +2 charge = 26

Bite at +19 (flatfooted) for 38 damage and an immediate grab with +26 CMB to deal another 38 dmg. For 76 damage total.

Probably will kill most wizards, especially if it crits.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:37 pm

ishy wrote: Since he's attacking a wizard he'll ofcourse power attack, and if the wizard has mirror images up, he's going to close his eyes for the 50% miss chance, because you need to gib a wizard quickly.

Wow. Nice.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:58 pm

Well from the monsters perspective, I'm not saying I would run the game like that myself, because anything that jumps at pcs out of nowhere and murders them is terrible for a fun game in d&d

CCarter · Post by **CCarter** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:00 pm

OK very dodgy rules question: since behirs have Cleave, can anyone find any interpretation by which if it pops a mirror image it can then Cleave onto the next image?
I think technically it doesn't work since the images aren't creatures, but it'd be awesome if it did work that way. We houserule it in for our games.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:16 pm

Mirror image changed a bit in pathfinder, and a pathfinder developer says it doesn't work, but he is often wrong so take it with a grain of salt.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/pa ... age&page=1

And in 3.5 the faq allows it:

For all intents and purposes, the figments from a foe’s
mirror image spell are your foes. You aim your spells and your
attacks at the figments just as though they were real creatures.
Any spell you can aim at a creature you can aim at an image.
When you use a spell that allows you to select multiple
creatures as targets, such as magic missile, you can choose
multiple images as targets.
If you have the Cleave or Great Cleave feat, destroying an
image with a melee attack triggers the feat (and your cleaving
attack might well strike the spell user instead of another
image). Likewise, you can use Whirlwind Attack to strike at
any image you can reach. A Whirlwind Attack almost certainly
will allow you to strike once at the spell user.

Though the 3.5 faq is often wrong too

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:30 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:See, with mirror image you buff at the entrance, and then every mook who throws a spear at you blows up an image. That's incredibly wasteful because you're burning a perfectly good 2nd level spell on stopping total garbage from hitting you in a resource you specifically buffed (hp) for that sort of thing. You're either using hp or spells to protect yourself from hp damage, and you have plenty of hp without heavy con investment because this is pathfinder we're talking about. How often do you take serious amounts of hp damage as a wizard once you get 6th level? You should have at least 7 hp/level by 6th, 8 if you want to burn a feat on it too.

AC - 5 is enough to stop mooks though given your buffing at the entrance. So while putting Mirror Image in your buff rotation wouldn't make sense in 3.5, it totally does in PF.

And I believe you were the one that mentioned divination. You could probably pimp your init enough without it though. In which case you are whatever type you want, as long as it's one of the good types.

Edit: 76 damage won't kill the Wizard. At worst it drops him to -4. And that also assumes the Wizard is good aligned. He could very well be neutral.

CCarter · Post by **CCarter** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:12 am

Thanks Ishy. Awesome.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:54 pm

Even mooks swing with +10 to hit, and thus pop images every time. You clearly don't know that much about PF, Shadow. Also no, you can't pump init to auto-win unless you're divination.

Whoa, if great cleave worked on images that would greatly weaken mirror image (and actually guarantee the behir hits in spite of the images, as it always takes great cleave). That's actually...a really reasonable rule. Thanks for making sure the dirty peasants can't hit the casters, Pathfinder.

So, does anybody know where the design idea behind the +2 to two skills feats? Every time I stumble across one (all the fucking time) I stare in disbelief for a few minutes. It's like they said "I wonder what can be worse than skill focus" and then FUCKING DID IT. It's almost like they made alertness specifically so elf wizards would automatically be better than characters who are actually trained in perception (elves get +2 perception, familiar grants alertness, elf wizards see better than anything but wis focused classes with perception as a class skill).

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:05 pm

Keep in mind that cleave in pathfinder is a standard action, so you can't use it on a charge or full attack. Though I believe they now reprinted the 3.5 cleave in a new book or something.

And the designers probably wanted a feat to give a skill bonus -> skill focus. And then one of them mentioned that if you want to be sneaky you had to roll both move silently and hide etc. So you'd want a feat that boosts those both, but it can't be as good as 2xskill focus of course.
And if you make it a choose 2 skills and give them a +2 bonus, then you have less words and get less money?

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:18 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:But don't we all need some trolling every now and again?

Off to the Paizo boards, though I truly hate their layout with a burning passion.

We all want to be trolled hard from time to time.

But at some point, you should stop it, or do it in a more intimate place if you really enjoy it (for example use private messages instead).

----
The design idea behind the "+2 to two skills" feat is that they existed in 3.5. Therefore pathfinder's designers did copy/paste them, and add a worthless bonus ("it becomes +4 if you have 10 ranks"), because that's what pathfinder's designers do.

Note that anyone can gain a familiar (and hence, awareness) using two feats, with the eldrich heritage feat. For spellcasting-challenged classes, that's probably one of the best possible use of two feats: "well, i can gain combat expertise and improved trip, for a shitty +2 to trip if the monster is trip-able in the first place, or I can gain a toad ally. Let's go for the toad, I'll call it doady and it will be my best friend ever". Fun fact: for one more feat you knows some sorcerer/wizard spells; you can't cast those spells, but it's still a more useful feat than greater trip or skill focus.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:25 pm

Wow, that really does blow. It does say "you may make a single melee attack." That's just...wow.

you totally get more words with those feats, because you just toss in piles of those feats and replace perception and sense motive with acrobatics and...fly? What a waste.

Doady is now the name of every familiar I get. Both because toads are one of the worst familiars, only being behind the "+3 to one skill, but only some of the time" familiars, and because Doady can still deliver touch attack spells for me, making him better than most party members.

Fun thought: The pet toad is likely higher int than the person who owns him, assuming they obtained it through the feat.

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:51 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:Even mooks swing with +10 to hit, and thus pop images every time. You clearly don't know that much about PF, Shadow. Also no, you can't pump init to auto-win unless you're divination.

Really, +10 to hit is enough to pop a buff character -5's AC at level 8? Again, we're not talking 3.5 where +10 actually would auto hit.

Whoa, if great cleave worked on images that would greatly weaken mirror image (and actually guarantee the behir hits in spite of the images, as it always takes great cleave). That's actually...a really reasonable rule. Thanks for making sure the dirty peasants can't hit the casters, Pathfinder.

It works, but since those feats are even worse in PF than they normally are no one cares.

So, does anybody know where the design idea behind the +2 to two skills feats? Every time I stumble across one (all the fucking time) I stare in disbelief for a few minutes. It's like they said "I wonder what can be worse than skill focus" and then FUCKING DID IT. It's almost like they made alertness specifically so elf wizards would automatically be better than characters who are actually trained in perception (elves get +2 perception, familiar grants alertness, elf wizards see better than anything but wis focused classes with perception as a class skill).

Don't you know? +2 to 2 skills is BETTER THAN LEADERSHIP. Believe it!

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:06 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:Shadow, PF mirror image pops if people miss you by 5 or less. That means every attack because you're a fucking wizard and your AC is somewhere in the teens if you bothered casting mage armor.

Wait, did PF nerf Wizards that badly?
By level 8, I have 24-28 AC as a Wizard in 3.5.

Are you that bad at buffing AC in PF?

I mean, you have Ring of Protection (Deflection) +2, Dex +2 item, Natural armor +2, Shield spell or Ring of Force Shield (+4 for spell/+2 for ring), Dusty Rose Ioun (+1 insight), Base Dex 16?, and why not Mage armor (+4 AC).
So minimum easy: 10+ 2 Deflect + 2 NA + 2 Shield(/+4 spell) + 1 Insight +4 Dex +4 Armor= 25/27 AC.
Add in a good buff like Haste since you cast that anyway: 26/28 AC.
Heck, why not a Polymorph buff.
Alter Self adds +2 Dex and +1 size or Monstrous Physique 1 adds +2 Dex and +1 NA and +1 size.

Why not Monstrous Physique 1: so AC 28-30 AC.
So you yes, Wizard have great AC if they care about having AC in PF.
Add in Mirror image and you have less chance of being hit.

As an aside:
Alchemist can go higher since they can use 1 potion infinitely once/day by a 2nd level spell each time they cast it.
So buy a level +5 Barkskin potion (3000) by 5 level?, a Shield Faith +5 potion (900) by 3rd level?, and a GMW (0r GMF) +5 for 3K by 6th level.

They have a spell that lets them not use up a potion if they cast the spell. So prepare it, cast it, then drink/use your amazing buff.
And strangely that is the intended useage.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spell ... allocation

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:14 pm

Slade wrote:Wait, did PF nerf Wizards that badly?

>PF
>nerf Wizards
laughingelfgirls.jpg

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:40 pm

Paizo posted the backstory of their Witch iconic.

She was kidnapped and raised by hags, and escaped with help from her familiar and some kind of nature magic that killed off the hags when they chased her.

I found it pretty garbage.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:51 pm

Slade wrote: By level 8, I have 24-28 AC as a Wizard in 3.5.

Are you that bad at buffing AC in PF?

I mean, you have Ring of Protection (Deflection) +2, Dex +2 item, Natural armor +2, Shield spell or Ring of Force Shield (+4 for spell/+2 for ring), Dusty Rose Ioun (+1 insight), Base Dex 16?, and why not Mage armor (+4 AC).
So minimum easy: 10+ 2 Deflect + 2 NA + 2 Shield(/+4 spell) + 1 Insight +4 Dex +4 Armor= 25/27 AC.
Add in a good buff like Haste since you cast that anyway: 26/28 AC.
Heck, why not a Polymorph buff.
Alter Self adds +2 Dex or Monstrous Physique 1 adds +2 Dex and +1 NA and +1 size.

Why not Monstrous Physique 1: so AC 28-30 AC.
So you yes, Wizard have great AC if they care about having AC in PF.

So you have 27000 gp at level 8.
You spend 8000 on a ring of protection +2.
You spend 4000 on gloves of dex +2.
You spend 8000 on a necklace of natural armour +2
You spend 5000 on a dusty rose ioun

That leaves 2000gp for a cloak of resistance +1 I guess and 1000 gp for something else.
Are you seriously saying that your wizard in 3.5 has a dex item but no int item?

Though in pathfinder you get 33000 but even then you only have 8000 gp left, for an +2 int item and +2 cloak of resistance I guess?

Most wizards I see spend their money differently though, they like stuff like handy haversacks, extra spells and other stuff they find more important than some armour class. But ymmv.

Oh and the na bonus of that spell probably doesn't stack with your amulet.

- Edit: @ ToZ, do you have a link?

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:17 pm

Actually the NA of the spell is base NA, the amulet is enhancement bonus. Base + enhancement = current NA. That is the rule.

Any Wizard worth his saly crafts his stuff in PF. That makes the cost 1/2 (except for the rings as they are uncraftable yet).
In 3.5, you got an Exp penalty but lower level gave you more Exp so ride that sea of XP. In PF, no XP penalty so ride that 1/2 price crafting.

So costs in PF:
You spend 8000 on a ring of protection +2.
You spend 2000 on gloves of dex +2.
You spend 4000 on a necklace of natural armour +2
You spend 2500 on a dusty rose ioun

Leaving 13, 500. Craft a +2 Cloak of Resistance (crafted cost 2K). I can still craft a +4 int item (8k), 2K for Handy Haversack, and leaving 1, 500 gp for other ideas.

Seriously, did you forget crafting is a wizard bonus feat if not a regular one?
There is no rule that craft has no benefit (I dread that errata) yet.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:17 pm

If the wizard has any crafting, then at least some of the items will be cheaper.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:33 pm

Hmm yeah the natural armour stacks, should have looked it up when I'm not sure.

and I forgot about the ring of force shield of 8500, though I can't figure out why you wouldn't pick up a mithral +1 buckler instead? Guess if making it out of a wall of force makes up for the 6000 gp

And I usually don't assume crafting doubles your wbl, since most DM's I know like to gravitate my equipment back to wbl, so people don't feel as punished if their gear is sundered etc.

- Edit: and all Dm's I've ever played with don't hand out only money, they also hand out items, some you can use, and some you sell for half price

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:42 pm

Continuous item of shield is 4kgp according to the 3e guidelines...

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:45 pm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/ri ... orceShield

-

Force Shield

An iron band, this simple ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC). This special creation has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance since it is weightless and encumbrance-free. It can be activated and deactivated at will as a free action.

Moderate evocation; CL 9th; Forge Ring, wall of force; Price 8,500 gp.

We were talking about this specific item afaik.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:49 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:Continuous item of shield is 4kgp according to the 3e guidelines...

Same guidelines also say that continuos +X to Y bonuses should be handled by the "+X to Y" system.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:50 pm

It's incredibly stupid for a wizard to waste precious gold buffing his AC. Just cast your standard miss chance spells and be done with that shit. Put up Blur or Displacement and then mirror image, spend your gold on shit that matters like metamagic rods, +stat items and scrolls to actually be an effective wizard.

Even if you pump AC up to 28 or 30 like an idiot, most level-appropriate monsters are hitting you around half the time and you just blew tons of useful resources to be as effective as a cleric who gives half a shit (ring of prot, shield spell via domain, natural armor and heavy armor) at having hits bounce off of you. You would be better off getting craft rod and craft wonderous items as your only bonus feats and then crafting a fuckton of lesser rods of quicken, persist and reach along with your int item and cloak of resistance. Wasting money on AC is just a really, really bad idea.

Not to mention a few points of that are wasted rounds (casting haste, casting polymorph (on yourself) or alter self). You could be winning encounters instead of casting fucking alter self (a spell that is incredibly shitty now).

Yes, wizards can be better than anyone at anything, but focusing on AC is being the king of the retards. Guess what, the behir or any other competent monster just grapples you anyways to make you useless. Congratulations! They still kill you since they just denied your dex bonus to AC and that's where at least four of your points are coming from. If you're at a level where grappling doesn't matter you not only spent 20k gold crafting a ring of freedom of movement (and thus didn't invest that much into AC), but enemies have +20 to hit anyways so you still get smacked.

AC on the wizard is just such a bad idea I'm amazed anyone considered it. Buy a +1 mithril buckler and cast mage armor at levels where you can't afford to waste spells on mirror image/displacement/blur, but stop giving a shit at level 8 so you can be a big boy wizard.

Edit: TDZ, link to the glorious backstory?

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:27 am

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:It's incredibly stupid for a wizard to waste precious gold buffing his AC. Just cast your standard miss chance spells and be done with that shit. Put up Blur or Displacement and then mirror image, spend your gold on shit that matters like metamagic rods, +stat items and scrolls to actually be an effective wizard.

Hint we were discussing mirror Image.
In PF, it uses your AC. So each of the images has 30 AC plus any miss chances I have.
All these AC boosting defenses last an hour at least (Alter Self).
Only ones that don't are Haste and Mirror image/any miss chance spells like blur/Displacement if needed (though unlikely in most cases with MI active).

Even if you pump AC up to 28 or 30 like an idiot, most level-appropriate monsters are hitting you around half the time and you just blew tons of useful resources to be as effective as a cleric who gives half a shit (ring of prot, shield spell via domain, natural armor and heavy armor) at having hits bounce off of you. You would be better off getting craft rod and craft wonderous items as your only bonus feats and then crafting a fuckton of lesser rods of quicken, persist and reach along with your int item and cloak of resistance. Wasting money on AC is just a really, really bad idea.

1/2 of 1/2 the time is 1/4th of the time, so miss chances + 30 AC = very unhittable. Plus, Mirror image... meaning 1/28th of the time.
It is the same crafting feats, dude. I mentioned one crafting feat. You really can't count or choose to ramble. Plus, you can't even use Craft Rod till way after 8th (hint it is 9th).

Not to mention a few points of that are wasted rounds (casting haste, casting polymorph (on yourself) or alter self). You could be winning encounters instead of casting fucking alter self (a spell that is incredibly shitty now).

Oh, yes, Haste is always a wasted action. How silly of me to assume everyone doesn't want an extra attack, 1 hit/AC, a round.
Polymorph/Alter Self lasts a very long, long time. So you are wasting out side of combat time... you have egg on your face for forgetting durations.
Please, 2nd level spells are cheap (pearls of power anyone).

Guess what, the behir or any other competent monster just grapples you anyways to make you useless. Congratulations! They still kill you since they just denied your dex bonus to AC and that's where at least four of your points are coming from.

Still missing me 1/2 the time. Oh, wait, it doesn't deny Mirror image, he grappled the wrong one.

If you're at a level where grappling doesn't matter you not only spent 20k gold crafting a ring of freedom of movement (and thus didn't invest that much into AC), but enemies have +20 to hit anyways so you still get smacked.

At 1/28th the time.

AC on the wizard is just such a bad idea I'm amazed anyone considered it. Buy a +1 mithril buckler and cast mage armor at levels where you can't afford to waste spells on mirror image/displacement/blur, but stop giving a shit at level 8 so you can be a big boy wizard.

Edit: TDZ, link to the glorious backstory?

Please, you just can't combo spells to save your life.