The Shadowrun Situation

[Stahlseele]

Sounds close enough to shadowrun anyway . .

[TheFlatline]

It doesn't effect CGL's chances of winning but it does seem to effect the chance that the (plaintiffs?) creditors will drop the (suit?) involuntary bankruptcy petition. Depends on what the fraction of the principal is, probably.

It's an intimidation tactic. If they were actually spending $225k on their legal defense, they could have just paid their fucking bills.

Actually, most lawyers don't actually charge you until the end of the case. It's difficult to know how much money would be enough, though 225 is an absurd amount (there are three creditors if memory serves).

Most lawyers charge between 100 & 200 dollars an hour. So let's say 200 and hour. At 225k, that's around 1000 billable hours, which works out to 6 months of 40 hour work weeks. Which for a lawyer would probably take closer to 2 years to do.

Anyway, it's almost certainly designed to force creditors out of the litigation. At the end of the day it might only be 10k in legal bills total, and the defense says "oops we over-estimated!" and walks away.

I'm also willing to guess that it almost certainly will not be upheld. Sometimes you go through the motions just to be complete.

[Neurosis]

Or to Arclight in Japan. Their pro-Nazi semi-pornographic card game is apparently actually really cool. From a mechanics standpoint, the historicity of a game where you play Nazi school girls who show their panties off while trying to take Moscow for the Third Reich from Stalin (who is a wizard) probably doesn't need to be gone into in over much detail.

And yes, that totally is a real thing. And yes, Arclight totally are the people who did SR Japan.

I certainly hope you're kidding. Is that game so ridiculous it's awesome in-and-of-itself? Yes. Should those people be handling Shadowrun? Probably not.

It means that Topps gives the license to any of the other companies that want the license. Same thing it has always meant.

I see. Going WAY back in this enormous thread, someone brought up the idea that CGL losing the license would precipitate a 5th Edition. Which is something I am not looking forward to if solely because it would mean shelling out for 5th Edition versions of all the 4E books I've spent the last few years collecting. Also, if it ain't broke don't fix it, and while 4E isn't perfect I wouldn't call it broken.

Whether CGL keeps the license or not I really hope that whoever winds up with it sticks with 4E rather than going for New Edition = Cash Influx. From my admittedly totally selfish consumer point of view.

It's an intimidation tactic. If they were actually spending $225k on their legal defense, they could have just paid their fucking bills.

That was the impression I got. I'm definitely no expert on legal and financial matters, though.

Anyway, it's almost certainly designed to force creditors out of the litigation. At the end of the day it might only be 10k in legal bills total, and the defense says "oops we over-estimated!" and walks away.

I'm also willing to guess that it almost certainly will not be upheld. Sometimes you go through the motions just to be complete.

Why are they throwing up such a high number? If it was a lower number wouldn't it have a higher chance of being upheld by the judge?

[Username17]

I certainly hope you're kidding. Is that game so ridiculous it's awesome in-and-of-itself? Yes. Should those people be handling Shadowrun? Probably not.

Well, it's a real possibility regardless. They produce successful (if weird) games, and they have had various iterations of the SR license before.

I see. Going WAY back in this enormous thread, someone brought up the idea that CGL losing the license would precipitate a 5th Edition. Which is something I am not looking forward to if solely because it would mean shelling out for 5th Edition versions of all the 4E books I've spent the last few years collecting. Also, if it ain't broke don't fix it, and while 4E isn't perfect I wouldn't call it broken.

Whether CGL keeps the license or not I really hope that whoever winds up with it sticks with 4E rather than going for New Edition = Cash Influx. From my admittedly totally selfish consumer point of view.

Well, regardless, 5th edition is coming. CGL plans to release 5th edition in 2012, subject to being able to hold together financially until then.

Why are they throwing up such a high number? If it was a lower number wouldn't it have a higher chance of being upheld by the judge?

My guess is that they are hoping the prospect of such a motion possibly being upheld would scare the creditors into capitulation. I don't know why they didn't try that kin of scorched earth tactic at the beginning instead of now though.

-Username17

[Neurosis]

Well, regardless, 5th edition is coming. CGL plans to release 5th edition in 2012, subject to being able to hold together financially until then.

That is really interesting to know. How you can continue to have inside information on CGL while publically campaigning for their dissolution is pretty weird, but then again maybe they just haven't changed their plans at all since you left. (If this was publically announced somewhere, boy I feel dumb!)

My guess is that they are hoping the prospect of such a motion possibly being upheld would scare the creditors into capitulation.

Seems vaguely like the bankruptcy law equivalent of playing chicken. That's what I thought but it seems so underhanded and cheap! Then again if we can take everything in this thread at faith value, I should not be at all surprised.

[TheFlatline]

Seems vaguely like the bankruptcy law equivalent of playing chicken. That's what I thought but it seems so underhanded and cheap! Then again if we can take everything in this thread at faith value, I should not be at all surprised.

Not really. It's the lawyer's obligation to vigorously represent their client. That means exhausting every single option for CGL.

When I owned a business and got into some litigation, I was accused of everything from intentional malevolence to not really being who I said I was. It's just the way the system moves.

[Neurosis]

Yeah, I guess you're right! Shouldn't the bond requested be in close proportion to the actual projected legal fees, however? I don't really know.

I just find litigiousness as a whole very unpleasant and I hope to avoid it where possible.

[TheFlatline]

Yeah, I guess you're right! Shouldn't the bond requested be in close proportion to the actual projected legal fees, however? I don't really know.

I just find litigiousness as a whole very unpleasant and I hope to avoid it where possible.

In spirit? Yes. The lawyer however could make a semi-reasonable claim that this could drag out for years in court and rack up a quarter million in legal fees.

The other thing this does is help show consistency with their defense, which is essentially that these are frivolous lawsuits or are malicious in nature and not business-based.

I'm not a lawyer of course, so take all this with a healthy dose of salt.

[Neurosis]

In other news...could someone please explain the 'Trees' thing?

[Stahlseele]

Big, Barky, Leafy, needed to make stuff out of them?

[BeeRockxs]

Well, regardless, 5th edition is coming. CGL plans to release 5th edition in 2012, subject to being able to hold together financially until then.

That is really interesting to know. How you can continue to have inside information on CGL while publically campaigning for their dissolution is pretty weird, but then again maybe they just haven't changed their plans at all since you left. (If this was publically announced somewhere, boy I feel dumb!)

Frank could also just be talking out of his ass.

[Korwin]

Considering how much he got right in the past, I would think he still got an source...

[virgil]

While I can't vouch for Frank's own ass, I can assure you that my ass...

is both a gentleman and a scholar. My ass in fact takes great affront at your implication that the position of herald by his kind is anything less than dignified and noble.

[BeeRockxs]

Considering how much he got right in the past, I would think he still got an source...

Who's still working with/for CGL?
I highly doubt that.

[Stahlseele]

Who's still working with/for CGL?

not that many.
even less who know what they are doing it seems.

[Neurosis]

G'damnit Stahlseele.

In the "DOTA is retarded/leaked documents" discussion maybe five to ten pages back, I think Ancient History or Frank or somebody mentioned that part of the reason that the creative direction that CGL is taking Shadowrun in is FUBAR because of the "Trees" thing. And then although it was referenced several times no one ever explained it at all ever (that I could see, obviously didn't read ALL 68 pages all the way through).

So, that "Trees" thing. What does it mean?

[Username17]

OK, you can read part of the "Trees" discussion Here. That was the master plan and end game for the "Trees."

Here's what it was:

• Way back in Year of the Comet, they introduced some awakened carnivorous trees, which if they got large enough could be a threat to metahumans who did not know about them (they are still immobile, and, well... trees).
• Jason, in his infinite wisdom, decided that he was going to make a plotline where those trees were the kickoff for a war between Amazonia and Aztlan. Specifically, Aztlan was planting carnivorous trees on the border so that in some number of years it would hard for humans to cross the border in either direction on foot.

Now there's a lot wrong with that. Amazonia loves trees and hates people, so the idea of surrounding them with trees that eat people sounds like something they'd do to themselves. Secondly, one of Amazonia's biggest complaints is Aztlan smugglig consumer goods into Amazonia, which this move would presumably alleviate. Another complaint they have is people taking things from the rainforest out into Aztlan, which this would presumably also alleviate. And yet another problem they have, is how much area of forest Aztlan chops down without replanting, which this is literally the opposite of.

So Jason's plan for the start of the war sounds like a peace gesture that would end a war between those two countries. Which is retarded. But then we get to the crowning purpose of the whole thing, th big payoff. It's... totally unrelated. The war in South America leads up to... some unrelated espionage in Denver. Some unrelated espionage that players can on the face of it see has no chance of going anywhere. It's literally Aztlan trying to get their Denver position back by bribing some fucking Mormons in the PCC, despite the fact that they never lost their treaty mandate to that area and the fact that they don't have any slice of Denver has 100% to do with Godzilla and 0% to do with what Mormons think.

The Trees plotline isn't just insultingly terrible because it's fucking laughable and fails to pass any test of setting verisimilitude at all, it's insultingly terrible because the plan for where to go from there was so fucking stupid that it wouldn't justify a lead-in that was stand-alone awesome.

As for SR5, Jason had this to say as recently as this month:

One final thing: The dreaded words "Shadowrun 5" have been bandied about a bit by Catalyst management. I can tell you two things about it: 1) It will _not_ happen in 2011. 2) It _will_ happen. Given the amount of time a book like that takes to plan, write, playtest, etc., the sooner we begin thinking about it, the better. So if you've got thoughts about what SR 5 should be, put 'em together in a comprehensible form and let me see 'em.

Basically, if he puts out submission requests, I can still read them. It's not really that difficult to do.

-Username17

[Centurion13]

Frank could also just be talking out of his ass.

And you could be back to trolling when you're bored. Which seems to be most of the time, lately.

Do you even have anything better to do here?

Cent13

[Centurion13]

*snip*

-Username17

Thanks for that info. I know next to nada about SR and yet you've managed to explain why the storyline is absurd and why the line developer is obviously not the best man for the job.

SR5 may come in 2012. When will they give us a new line developer for SR? It seems that is what it really needs. Jason's judgement appears to be shot.

Cent13

[TheFlatline]

Probably when Jason splits or if he fucks up bad enough that they can't stand him any more.

So either when he gets tired or fucks up and released a masterpiece in Shadowrun.

Oh, and someone asked what I meant by Forgotten Realms being meta-wank. I mean that the metaplot is masturbation for it's authors. This was discussed at length in the D&D threads, and I won't go into details here. But the ramrodding of Harlequin & Immortal Elves & earthdawn references into Shadowrun's metaplot stinks of that same kind of author masturbation.

[Stahlseele]

Frank could also just be talking out of his ass.

And you could be back to trolling when you're bored. Which seems to be most of the time, lately.

Do you even have anything better to do here?

Cent13

Not here, but he's busy churning out newer dev versions of megamek.

[Centurion13]

Not here, but he's busy churning out newer dev versions of megamek.

Well, I happen to like MegaMek, though I prefer live action with real people. He appears to be doing a good job.

Perhaps he should stick to his strengths. He may have a lot invested in the game as a game, but not the scoundrels currently running it. And he accomplished nothing with a jab at Frank.

By all means, roast Frank. But do a good job and use some real ammo, not some hair-brained 'nuh-uh!' crap on the level of "Trollman doesn't shower!".

&%$@ trolls, think they can spout off anytime they want.

Cent13

[Ancient History]

OK, you can read part of the "Trees" discussion Here. That was the master plan and end game for the "Trees."

Fun fact for anybody interested: this is the same conversation which led directly to me being banned from the freelancer forums.

[Stahlseele]

Didn't really read up on the complete tempo stuff, but isn't tempo made from that same "tree"?

[Neurosis]

OK, you can read part of the "Trees" discussion Here. That was the master plan and end game for the "Trees."

Here's what it was:

* Way back in Year of the Comet, they introduced some awakened carnivorous trees, which if they got large enough could be a threat to metahumans who did not know about them (they are still immobile, and, well... trees).

* Jason, in his infinite wisdom, decided that he was going to make a plotline where those trees were the kickoff for a war between Amazonia and Aztlan. Specifically, Aztlan was planting carnivorous trees on the border so that in some number of years it would hard for humans to cross the border in either direction on foot.

Now there's a lot wrong with that. Amazonia loves trees and hates people, so the idea of surrounding them with trees that eat people sounds like something they'd do to themselves. Secondly, one of Amazonia's biggest complaints is Aztlan smugglig consumer goods into Amazonia, which this move would presumably alleviate. Another complaint they have is people taking things from the rainforest out into Aztlan, which this would presumably also alleviate. And yet another problem they have, is how much area of forest Aztlan chops down without replanting, which this is literally the opposite of.

So Jason's plan for the start of the war sounds like a peace gesture that would end a war between those two countries. Which is retarded. But then we get to the crowning purpose of the whole thing, th big payoff. It's... totally unrelated. The war in South America leads up to... some unrelated espionage in Denver. Some unrelated espionage that players can on the face of it see has no chance of going anywhere. It's literally Aztlan trying to get their Denver position back by bribing some fucking Mormons in the PCC, despite the fact that they never lost their treaty mandate to that area and the fact that they don't have any slice of Denver has 100% to do with Godzilla and 0% to do with what Mormons think.

The Trees plotline isn't just insultingly terrible because it's fucking laughable and fails to pass any test of setting verisimilitude at all, it's insultingly terrible because the plan for where to go from there was so fucking stupid that it wouldn't justify a lead-in that was stand-alone awesome.

Oh god I am so sorry I asked.

Seriously, if you leave alone the MORMONS VS. GHOSTWALKER issue...and let's leave it alone...if you just FLIPPED this and AMAZONIA planted the man eating trees and that pissed AZTLAN off wouldn't that fix at least part of it in one fell swoop? I say this as someone who has read a LOT (although not ALL) of Shadowrun fluff throughout the ages.

Thanks for that info. I know next to nada about SR and yet you've managed to explain why the storyline is absurd and why the line developer is obviously not the best man for the job.

I'm not going to say anything bad about Jason or Frank or anyone else, but please don't judge Shadowrun on the basis of the Trees plotline. Please. It is like judging all of Dungeons & Dragons on AD&D Monster Manual 2 (or whatever you happen to think the dumbest part of D&D is).

Didn't really read up on the complete tempo stuff, but isn't tempo made from that same "tree"?

Different evil magic tree. (I actually kind of like what of Ghost Cartels I've read. Please don't flame, just my opinion.)