Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[ModelCitizen]

tbh alignment themed classes are something that should have gone a long time ago. Alignment in general is a roleplaying guideline that should have no correlation with game mechanics except in very extreme cases. Instead of a Paladin/Blackguard, you should have something like a Crusader, that is alignment neutral, with ACFs that tune the features to something flavored to a specific alignment.

Hey, if it were up to me you could use the paladin class for any flavor of divine-powered warrior, but PF is supposed to be backwards compatible or something.

[darkmaster]

Hm, Pathtome... Nah, doesn't really have much of a ring to it.

EDIT: Wait I've got another! Tomefinder, eh? eh?

[icyshadowlord]

My dislike of Pathfinder has been increasing lately, thanks to my own discussions with Paizo fanboys and due to the insights given here concerning the shitty game mechanics.

Now that Pathfinder's apparently the #1 game sold and such, I only hope for two things.

1: That the guys who do play Pathfinder realize that the melee classes need fixing, and lots of it!!
(I doubt they will learn this lesson anytime soon, despite the discussions about improving the Rogue)

2: D&D 5e shows up and kicks Pathfinder to Hell with its awesomeness. (I think this is even less likely to happen)

[hogarth]

I think the idea is that you can't multi-class with an "alternate class" and its corresponding "base class" to cherry-pick the same starting ability twice (e.g. you can't have a rogue 1/alternate-rogue 1 with +2d6 sneak attack or a fighter 2/alternate-fighter 2 with four fighter bonus feats).

Does that even matter though?

Not really. Classes shouldn't be designed so that taking 2x level 1 is better than taking level 1 plus level 2, anyways. I think it's just a matter of aesthetics as A Man In Black noted; it's "awkward as shit".

2: D&D 5e shows up and kicks Pathfinder to Hell with its awesomeness. (I think this is even less likely to happen)

That depends what you mean. I think it's obvious that 5E D&D will outsell Pathfinder when it premieres -- Pathfinder will be in the tail end of its life cycle and 5E will be at the beginning.

[RobbyPants]

2: D&D 5e shows up and kicks Pathfinder to Hell with its awesomeness. (I think this is even less likely to happen)

It'd be nice if PF offered that type of competitiveness to inspire WotC to pump out a decent product.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

What are people saying about buffing the rogue?

The ninja is literally the rogue, just better (by fucking leaps and bounds, might I add). They get swift action invisibility, the ability to add an extra attack on a full attack (yeah, you can be rocking 3 attacks with sneak attack at second level with twf).

Sure, you need some cha to be a good ninja at lower levels (or to burn feats on ki) but being able to do 6d6 + strx3 on command at level 2 is pretty potent. Then again, sneak attack is still sneak attack so you fail vs everything that's immune. The ninja does get some useful utility though, whereas the rogue gets absolutely nothing worth mentioning.

[OgreBattle]

why is the rogue considered a good benchmark of usefulness/'balance' by The Den's 3.X, while Pathfinder fan says it's underpowered?

[Swordslinger]

why is the rogue considered a good benchmark of usefulness/'balance' by The Den's 3.X, while Pathfinder fan says it's underpowered?

From what I've seen it's mostly that people here tend to do a lot of crazy stuff with the rogue instead of playing him straightforward. Things like sneak attacking with alchemist fire flasks, abusing the hell out of wands and UMD and so on.

Pathfinder players (as is the case with most D&D players) don't really play rogues that way and play them much more casually. And really, unless you know what you're doing, rogues have a really tough time in construct/undead heavy quests.

[violence in the media]

Then again, sneak attack is still sneak attack so you fail vs everything that's immune.

In PF, the only creature types generically immune to sneak attack are elementals, oozes, incorporeal creatures (unless you have a ghost touch weapon), and proteans (which have a 50% fortification effect). So, there's that.

[Maxus]

why is the rogue considered a good benchmark of usefulness/'balance' by The Den's 3.X, while Pathfinder fan says it's underpowered?

Because your average Pathfinder fan doesn't know the full extent of what a rogue can do. When confronted with it, their response is 'That can't be right! Be...because the game doesn't work like that!" or "I wouldn't let that in my game"

They play most fights as fighters standing in place and Full-Attacking, wizards casting Fireball or Polar Ray or some shit, the Rogue flanking with the fighter, and the cleric running around healing everyone or using Searing Light on undead.

Most of us recognize that's fun and all. But so is your wizard introducing tentacle rape and seizures into the world (via Black Tentacles and Color Spray), the Cleric casting Summon Monster before he casts Divine Power on himself and uses his now-full BAB and +6 enhancement bonus to strength to beat some faces in while his Celestial Dire Buffalo is performing the Holy Dance of the Seven Thousand Pound Charge, and the Rogue...well, the Rogue picks one enemy and makes their life absolutely hell.

Seriously, some Use Magic Device gives the Rogue access to some incredibly fun spells. Which is nice on its own, but becomes flat-out jaw-dropping when you add that up with sneak attack. Invisible, silent, Golem-striking, energy-damaging, god-knows-what-else Sneak Attacks. Which may be delivered with acid flasks. And duel-wielded.

AND the Rogue can actually do stuff out of combat. Wheel and deal, talk, lie, investigate and perform Antique Road Show appraisals in whatever town they're in for a modest fee and a chance to swipe the loot themselves. Or climb or play a musical instrument or juggle or something.

TL;DR: The rogue can hold his own in combat, make use of most available resources, doesn't have to invest all his resources into one trick like a fighter does (Pick one of: Damage, tripping, etc), AND can contribute just as much to the party outside of battle. That's a well-rounded character, folks.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Yeah, the immune monsters are fucking obnoxious.

The main benefit of being the ninja is you get out of combat utility that doesn't suck (bitches can get a climb speed, walk over anything they can cross in 2 moves [even lava and shit] without making checks, etc.) and you get to generate your own sneak attack without having to deal with flanks or stealth (swift action invis for 1 ki point). They also get the bonus attack, but it really isn't necessary and burns points pretty quick. You can also cherry pick anything good the rogue gets, so who the fuck picks rogue anymore? They should have just patched the rogue and called the ki points "talent points" or something so people don't complain that the rogue is too magical.

While everything the ninja gets is pretty low level, it actually stays level-appropriate until like, level 7. It's probably the most well-designed thing Pathfinder has made. It still has stupid fucking fiddly resources and lots of groups of things that aren't feats but are feats that you can exchange for feats if you want but only certain feats unless you trade out other non-feats that you can get any feat for, but only if you meet the feat pre-reqs (except maybe you don't need to). But power and flavor-wise the class is ok. A bit weak because "lol there's shit that your primary combat ability never works on, ever" is pretty common.

tl;dr: They don't need to fix the rogue, they just need to remove the rogue and rename the Ninja.

[Shadow Balls]

NancyPDoyle forums aside...

Now, now, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Shadow clearly thinks that when people level up in session they just...level up in session and have pre-plotted builds. That's ok, and something a lot of people do. I mean, he does seem to think you won't alter your course once you've started (like, you'll pick stinking cloud even if you've been facing a fuckton of undead lately), and won't ever get buyer's remorse or have decision paralysis due to the massive number of options.

If you're a caster, you can just pick good abilities that fit your theme and be fine. So if you've been facing a lot of undead, you scratch off Stinking Cloud even if you like it from your consideration list, and you put Slow on there instead. Which granted you should do anyways, as enemy Will saves are lower than Fort and most things that do have low Fort saves are either immune to Fort effects anyways or don't actually have low saves anyways.

But aside from that, even if what you pick isn't the absolute top best choice, you're a fucking caster, so you're fine anyways, and you can add the other spell to your book if it bugs you later.

If you are not a prepared caster, then you're going to be focusing entirely on the general stuff anyways so while you can't easily change your decision, it's also easier to make it as much more things are ruled out.

If you are not a caster, you most likely DO have a preplotted build, as otherwise you won't get anywhere. At the absolute minimum you have a direction, so you just keep taking charger things or tripper things or what the fuck ever in a set progression.

I'm pretty sure everyone here levels up in session at the appropriate time, such as the end of an adventure or something like that. You know, times when you've just gotten a bunch of crap and need to split loot up, figure out how much cash you've got, buy some magic items AND level up. I can't think of a time I've just leveled up in the middle of a fucking dungeon because that's retarded.

We are discussing leveling up. Not leveling up and item management, which would take a bit longer but really, you're going to mostly buy higher numbers stuff anyways. And if you are having something else in mind, you've likely thought of it in advance. Such as noticing your init is only +9, so you make a note to get a nerveskitter wand the next time you get some cash. And then you get some cash and you go oh hey, more quicker acting.

Again, if you had a pre-plotted build right down to the order you'll purchase items (let's say you're a league of legends player) this isn't a problem (though your inflexibility is fucking ridiculous), but for those of us who haven't put quite that much planning in levels will take some time. Time we'd rather spend playing the damn game.

It doesn't take that degree of preplanning to make it quick. The fact that just about anything that isn't a basic stat booster, some manner of extradimensional storage, or something from the MIC is a trap and not worth using makes the decision making process very easy and generally come down to save and stat boosters, as AC doesn't really matter or make a difference and the odd utility item (haversack, haste boots etc) that you've thought of in advance.

Also, fuck pathfinder in the ear.

At least we agree on that.

If Shadzar's Balls isn't trolling, he's just as stupid as SKR. SKR make awful game-design because he thinks that everyone should be playing like him. He think that a monk with wow of poverty is retarded and nobody should play it, and therefore he created an awful option; he thinks that Hyoga and Camu are great characters and everyone should play them, and therefore he created Ice tomb.

Shadzar's Ball do the same: he and his friend are playing a certain way, therefore he thinks that everyone should be playing the same. Which means: having all the books in your memory, knowing every relevant option, using only the most powerful options, creating your entire 20-level build at level 1...

Hey you. Fucking fucker that can't write right. Go fuck yourself. With that said...

SKR is an idiot because he makes trap options and then attempts to defend his creation of useless content by claiming that traps are good.

I call trap options trap options, and then ignore them because they are trap options. That in turn means that the meta is about fewer things, which makes the decision making process EASIER. It doesn't take a 20 level build at level 1, though non casters will do that anyways for viability reasons. It does require that people that are playing D&D actually play D&D, and not fuck around with pointless, irrelevant bullshit for the next 3 hours and then complain they got nothing done.

Complaining about rude language on the Den. That's a new one. What next, will you get butthurt and ragequit for a few years because someone said the word [EDITED]?

Nobody gives a dick about your profanity. You are not being repressed because you're too cool and edgy (and SMART!) for us all. What are you, fucking 13?

No, everybody hates you because you suck. You contribute nothing. Nothing you write is funny or insightful.

Who the fuck are you again NancyPDoyle?

why is the rogue considered a good benchmark of usefulness/'balance' by The Den's 3.X, while Pathfinder fan says it's underpowered?

The Pathfinder Rogue is substantially weaker than the 3.5 one for a number of reasons, most of them involving them nerfing it because someone from this board posted a Rogue build there.

[RobbyPants]

If Shadzar's Balls isn't trolling, he's just as stupid as SKR. SKR make awful game-design because he thinks that everyone should be playing like him. He think that a monk with wow of poverty is retarded and nobody should play it, and therefore he created an awful option; he thinks that Hyoga and Camu are great characters and everyone should play them, and therefore he created Ice tomb.

Shadzar's Ball do the same: he and his friend are playing a certain way, therefore he thinks that everyone should be playing the same. Which means: having all the books in your memory, knowing every relevant option, using only the most powerful options, creating your entire 20-level build at level 1...

Hey you. Fucking fucker that can't write right. Go fuck yourself. With that said...

You're not complaining about the Shadzar's Balls thing, are you? Because if you are, this is just priceless coming from the guy who calls other people Fuckaduck and Likadick.

[hogarth]

why is the rogue considered a good benchmark of usefulness/'balance' by The Den's 3.X, while Pathfinder fan says it's underpowered?

Because Frank had fun once playing a rogue with a Ring of Blink who threw flasks of acid. Therefore, in a Shadow-Balls-esque piece of logic, he declared that every since rogue uses a Ring of Blink and throws flasks of acid, it follows that rogues are great.

Note that Blink doesn't work the same in PFRPG, nor can a rogue sneak attack with a flask of acid.

[Seerow]

why is the rogue considered a good benchmark of usefulness/'balance' by The Den's 3.X, while Pathfinder fan says it's underpowered?

Because Frank had fun once playing a rogue with a Ring of Blink who threw flasks of acid. Therefore, in a Shadow-Balls-esque piece of logic, he declared that every since rogue uses a Ring of Blink and throws flasks of acid, it follows that rogues are great.

Note that Blink doesn't work the same in PFRPG, nor can a rogue sneak attack with a flask of acid.

Also UMD. According to the Den UMD as a class skill alone takes a class from terrible to playable all by itself. After all, a Fighter with UMD is almost a Wizard!

[A Man In Black]

Most of us recognize that's fun and all. But so is your wizard introducing tentacle rape and seizures into the world (via Black Tentacles and Color Spray), the Cleric casting Summon Monster before he casts Divine Power on himself and uses his now-full BAB and +6 enhancement bonus to strength

Invisible, silent, Golem-striking, energy-damaging, god-knows-what-else Sneak Attacks. Which may be delivered with acid flasks. And duel-wielded.

All nerfed in PF. Celestial Bison are now much higher up the list, Divine Power no longer gives you full BAB, Invisibility explicitly ends after one attack and not a round of full attacks, Blink doesn't work for ranged attacks like that any more, and acid flasks (and all splash attacks) explicitly don't work for sneak attacks.

[hogarth]

And the Quick Draw feat specifically doesn't work on alchemical items, so you can't make full attacks with acid flasks either.

[Kaelik]

Alternatively, the Den finds rogue balance to be an acceptable level of balance because they can do enough damage to kill most things in one or two rounds, and can generally bypass the restrictions to that. How much extra damage it can do, and what restrictions is can bypass at what cost varies depending on optimization levels, but a really simple rogue build that starts from the premise that they should be getting SA every round is usually pretty averagely awesome.

[ishy]

Afaik even spells like grease got nerfed in pathfinder just to screw rogues.

[Shadow Balls]

If Shadzar's Balls isn't trolling, he's just as stupid as SKR. SKR make awful game-design because he thinks that everyone should be playing like him. He think that a monk with wow of poverty is retarded and nobody should play it, and therefore he created an awful option; he thinks that Hyoga and Camu are great characters and everyone should play them, and therefore he created Ice tomb.

Shadzar's Ball do the same: he and his friend are playing a certain way, therefore he thinks that everyone should be playing the same. Which means: having all the books in your memory, knowing every relevant option, using only the most powerful options, creating your entire 20-level build at level 1...

Hey you. Fucking fucker that can't write right. Go fuck yourself. With that said...

You're not complaining about the Shadzar's Balls thing, are you? Because if you are, this is just priceless coming from the guy who calls other people Fuckaduck and Likadick.

Comparing people to Shadzar is like using the n word to describe a black person.

Swearing and making dick jokes is the Den way.

If you can't see the difference between these two, you're a fucking retard.

And the people bitching about me aside, even they agree that Pathfinder nerfed Rogues in some pathetic and puerile attempt to spite the Den. Admittedly, there are many people here who are faux elitists or just plain stupid but that doesn't justify what is supposed to be a professional company nerfing an entire character class because people they didn't like showed them what could be done with it.

3.5 Rogues are pretty bad because you have to play them in a single and highly specific way to get very far, but PF Rogues are worse.

[A Man In Black]

Alternatively, the Den finds rogue balance to be an acceptable level of balance because they can do enough damage to kill most things in one or two rounds, and can generally bypass the restrictions to that. How much extra damage it can do, and what restrictions is can bypass at what cost varies depending on optimization levels, but a really simple rogue build that starts from the premise that they should be getting SA every round is usually pretty averagely awesome.

The funny thing is, Pathfinder buffed most (optimized) martial classes to "rogue balance" levels of damage, while nerfing rogues to not be able to get sneak attack most of the time unless they are flanking.

[RobbyPants]

You're not complaining about the Shadzar's Balls thing, are you? Because if you are, this is just priceless coming from the guy who calls other people Fuckaduck and Likadick.

Comparing people to Shadzar is like using the n word to describe a black person.

Swearing and making dick jokes is the Den way.

If you can't see the difference between these two, you're a fucking retard.

You call it a difference, I call it splitting hairs.

Cracked covered this very thing two days ago in double standards.

[Psychic Robot]

Rogues are a good level of balance not because of flask cheese or UMD nonsense, but because they have a variety of abilities that allow them to contribute in and out of combat. With sneak attack, they can do decent damage (particularly in Pathfinder where the list of immunities to sneak attack has been slashed), and they have a long list of skills that lets them interact with the game world in ways that a fighter cannot. Out of combat, they can sneak, appraise items, lie, steal, find hidden items, frighten people, climb, disguise themselves, disable traps, determine the value of items, make friends, pick locks, and so on.

However, in Pathfinder, the rogue is considered weak not because they nerfed the class but because they buffed other classes. With the changes to Power Attack and the boosts to attack and damage, the fighter easily does more damage than the rogue on every attack. The alterations to the skill system devalue the rogue's skillmonkey status. And then there's the ninja, which is outright better than the rogue.

Flurry of Stars (Ex): A ninja with this ability can expend 1 ki point from her ki pool as a swift action whenever she makes a full-round attack with shuriken. She can throw two additional shuriken at her highest attack bonus, but all of her shuriken attacks are made at a –2 penalty.

At 6th level, a ninja learns to move by barely touching the surface underneath her. As a fullround action, she can move up to twice her speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this way, any surface will support her, no matter how much she weighs. This allows her to move across water, lava, or even the thinnest tree branches. She must end her move on a surface that can support her normally. She cannot move across air in this way, nor can she walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, she does not take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touched, such as lava or caltrops, nor does she need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slippery or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps the ninja ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger.

Vanishing Trick (Su): The ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability is a swift action. The ninja can use this ability once per day for free. Each additional use of this ability uses up 1 ki point.

Invisible Blade (Su): Whenever a ninja uses the vanishing trick ninja trick, she is treated as if she were under the effects of greater invisibility. The ninja must have the vanishing trick ninja trick before selecting this ninja trick.

[Shadow Balls]

Except that Rogues are nerfed, because in a petty attempt to spite this board they went and removed almost every means of actually rendering enemies vulnerable to sneak attacks. They then nerfed skills even further to kick them while they were down.

Fighters doing more damage than Rogues is both nothing new, and was more true in 3.5, where they weren't nerfed either.

[ModelCitizen]

Wasn't it Frank specifically, not TGD? Anyway yeah that was fucking stupid.