Races of War

[RandomCasualty]

1175456828[/unixtime]]
Critical hits don't really have a flavor.

Well, critical specialists kind of do, because of how the game is designed. A crit specialist is based around killing humanoids, giants, dragons, etc. Basically anything with that isn't invulnerable to critical hits.

There's a minor flavor there as being a crit specialist makes you better against certain kinds of creatures and weaker against others.

Though when the designers of 3.5 spoke against criticals, it was more a matter of making criticals rare and more special. To a degree, I can agree with them, simply because criticals slow down the game somewhat (because they require a 2nd die roll). When you're at low level, it isn't a big deal, but when you've got guys throwing 4-5 attacks per round, those added dice do accumulate to slow things down.

[Catharz]

1175465896[/unixtime]]

1175456828[/unixtime]]
Critical hits don't really have a flavor.

Well, critical specialists kind of do, because of how the game is designed. A crit specialist is based around killing humanoids, giants, dragons, etc. Basically anything with that isn't invulnerable to critical hits.

There's a minor flavor there as being a crit specialist makes you better against certain kinds of creatures and weaker against others.

Though when the designers of 3.5 spoke against criticals, it was more a matter of making criticals rare and more special. To a degree, I can agree with them, simply because criticals slow down the game somewhat (because they require a 2nd die roll). When you're at low level, it isn't a big deal, but when you've got guys throwing 4-5 attacks per round, those added dice do accumulate to slow things down.

My point about criticals 'not having a flavor' was that extra damage against living non-amorphous creatures due to precision is sneak attack, which uses a different and non-compatible mechanic.

A character focused on criticals is 'the strong guy who gets lucky and does a lot of damage fairly regularly.' This flavor is identical to the power-attack specialist.

If critical hits did something other than damage, they'd have a flavor: I'm the guy who fights dirty and will kneecap you. A number of systems have been proposed for this.
If critical hits mean 'extra damage from a particularly successful attack roll,' the flavor is 'I'm the dex-based fighter.' SAME works this way.


You're right though, I was foolishly overstating my case when I said that critical hits don't have flavor. I should have said that the flavor they have is, to my palette, 'cardboard.' That doesn't mean that crit-based characters should be nerfed any more than it means that power attack specialists should be nerfed, or anything else purely mechanics-based should be nerfed.

[Iaimeki]

Another random question: does the sunder action still exist in Races of War? I mean, I can guess what the Edge option does (no attack of opportunity), but it's odd that this wasn't addressed in the Advanced Combat section, given that there are abilities that help and defend against sunder.

[tzor]

1175456828[/unixtime]]
Critical hits don't really have a flavor.

That comment made me think of the Monty Python "Albatros seller" skit when the seller is asked "what flavors does it come in?"

[Crissa]

I had a squirrel that had Dirty Fighting...

-Crissa

[Catharz]

1175543240[/unixtime]]I had a squirrel that had Dirty Fighting...

-Crissa

Ok, I know where this is going...

[MrWaeseL]

1175564781[/unixtime]]

1175543240[/unixtime]]I had a squirrel that had Dirty Fighting...

-Crissa

Ok, I know where this is going...

Fursecution?

[Nihlin]

1175567177[/unixtime]]

1175564781[/unixtime]]

1175543240[/unixtime]]I had a squirrel that had Dirty Fighting...

-Crissa

Ok, I know where this is going...

Fursecution?

Comedy gold?

[User3]

Quick question for anyone willing to answer: doesn't the possibility of a fighter getting 2 natural 20s per round (say, with a scythe) put him at about the same level of "hitting things really hard" as a barbarian? Also, shouldn't combat movement help charging?

[Judging__Eagle]

Yup, being able to take a bonus 5 foot step can often let a character prep for a charge easier.

If the fighter is able to burn his dual immediate actions and get two 20's to get 4x damage with a scythe (or any non-light x4 crit weapon wielded two-handed); why not let him have the damage?

If the fight is against a creature that he doenst' have to worry about saving his Foil actions on, why not just kill the enemy faster?

In fact, a high lv fighter might be able to both get one foil in reserve and an auto-hit with full power attack every round if they so feel.

Which is handy for fighting stuff like a Swarm of Medium sized creatures. Hold them back with Foil action (movement) and then full power attack with a one handed weapon and an off-hand weapon for extra damage (+20 bonus damage on the 1st hit, and +20 on each other main hand attacks, plus off hand damage).

Then again, I like to use TWF, Blitz and Whirlwind on a char using Adamantine armour to make a char that can drop multiple high damage attacks on a pile of targets. Getting +12 bonus damage on each target at lvl 6 is nothing to sneeze at, getting +40 at lvl 20 ain't too shabby either.

The barb with the same feats will obvously be outdamaging that using the same tactics (+40+ ~30 damage (10d6) is a bit more noticable; and on all targets that you can melee within a 60 or 80 foot movement range that's pile of total damage.

The barb probably won't have Iron Will, Great Fort and Lighting Reflexes as well as other feats; so it's a good trade.

[User3]

JE, I meant the barbarian's "Combat Movement" class feature - it says it only works for move actions, which I find weird for a barbarian. Also: said fighter would still have an immediate action from array of stunts left for foiling when spending 2 swift actions. Finally, could you elaborate on how the barbarian's +10d6 competes with 2 quasi-auto-crits? I admit I didn't fuss too much with RoW feats; that's probably the source of my doubt. Thanks.

[Catharz]

1175567703[/unixtime]]

1175567177[/unixtime]]

1175564781[/unixtime]]Ok, I know where this is going...

Fursecution?

Comedy gold?

It's a pun. Squirrels always go for the nuts.

[Judging__Eagle]

1175634227[/unixtime]]JE, I meant the barbarian's "Combat Movement" class feature - it says it only works for move actions, which I find weird for a barbarian. Also: said fighter would still have an immediate action from array of stunts left for foiling when spending 2 swift actions. Finally, could you elaborate on how the barbarian's +10d6 competes with 2 quasi-auto-crits? I admit I didn't fuss too much with RoW feats; that's probably the source of my doubt. Thanks.

The rage dice are more effective when you can use them more often.

Hence, combine the Combat Movement of Barbarian Rage; with Whirlwind (attack multiple targets at your highest attack bonus); TWF and Blitz help with creating more bonus damage.

Blitz for +1 dmg per BaB, TWF to double that since you get 2 attacks when you whirlwind, but the 2nd is an offhand, so you won't get rage dice added to it, but blitz is added to all melee attacks.

This is useless versus anything except mobs.

Standing still and using TWF + Blitz works better that way. Since you can apply your Blitz damage 2, 4, 6 or 8 times on one target.

You will provoke an AoO every time you attack using blitz; so a Wrathful Healing weapon is vital to survive high level play. Grabbing armour that gives you DR also helps, even if it slows you by 10 feet.

Seriously though, I've had a 6th lvl barbarian solo an Ettin in one round due to Rage Dice, Blitz and TWF.

At 4th I killed a Huge crocodile in 2 rounds; basically you'll kill any one thing that is straight melee with a barb due to damage.

[User3]

I'm probably still too much in the PA/übercharging paradigm, where using two weapons was insane for a barbarian; I see now it is the standard method of outdamaging a fighter; thanks for the pointer.

[Judging__Eagle]

Well, PA is still a good option, but now it's meant for crap you know you'll almost always hit and want to kill super-fast (ie. rush through about 10 CR 3 orcs and kill them in one round with a lvl 6 barbarian; using Whirlwind to attack and move, Blitz to add +6 damage, TWF to increase the number of attacks to 2 (an other +6 damage); then trading out 1-3 BaB for +2-6 (again, doubled to +4 to +12 since you've got two weapons).

At that point since you're an reckless, always winding-up before you strike, rushing headlong madman covered in spiked black metal armour, you should kill the orcs; and then get 2 hits on the boss at the back of the group.

Really, it's a whole new ball game.

A fighter can get more tricks than the Barb though. A metric ton more.

At lvl 6 the barb has either 3 or 4 if human; the fighter's got 6 or 7 if human.

In any case, the best barbarian 'trick' I've found is to combo, whirlwind, twf and blitz.

Picking up Great Fortitude for a massive boost to all saves when Raging (and more Hp at lvl 6 and more DR at lvl 11) also works and Combat School means that you can trade of an exact amount of BaB for your chosen targets.

A good feat order selection for the 'rusher' or 'blitzer' barb build is:

1. Blitz (+BaB to attacks at the cost of an AoO on you; reach weapons + armour spikes or a spiked chain wins here)
2.
3. Two-Weapon Fighting (two attacks)
4.
6. Whirlwind (move action distance whirlwind unlocked)
7.
8.
9. Combat School (+2 to hit & damage, status effect)
10.
11.
12. Great Fortitude

After that you should look at Mage Hunter or Juggernaut; Juggernaut might be better earlier on since you can do amazing/stupid shit like run into enemies squares while being able to Whirlwind the people you can target.

Of course, if you normally face less, but more powerful guys, TWF, Blitz and Combat School become really effective since you can drop the bloody hammer on your target.

You'll seriously be able to kill most things within your CR in one round.

Of course, the cleric will have to follow your every move since you're provoking AoOs all the bloody time. Getting AC boosts in the form of spells, gear, whatever and wearing an Adamantine anything armour will save your ass, since the DRs will stack to give you at say.. level 6:

DR 11/Adamantine (6), - (5)

Which goes up by 3 every 2 lvls (+1 per lvl due to BaB, +1 per 2 lvls thanks to Barbarian lvls), and if you have Great Fort at lvl 11 you've got a really noticable DR of:

DR 23/Adamantine (11), - (12)

At lvl 11, DR 23/You don't have it is going to be really handy in dropping enemy damage so that you can keep dodging enemy spells and killing the BBeG's champions or mooks. You'll still take damage since you're gonna provoke AoOs like a fool, but who cares?

The clerics will be willing to drop healing on you out of their cheapo wands.

That or buy everyone in your group a 12,000 gp item of Close Wounds. If they're not using their Immediate action and are within 30 feet, they're to activate it on you and give you back 2d4+3 HP. That will help keep you alive.


The trick is to make sure your party thinks that making you the biggest target of enemy aggression is a good idea.

Also, b/c you do blitz and provoke tons of AoOs, anyone can follow you and since you've triggered tons of AoOs, they can walk safely. Which is hilarious. Since a pair of clerics can walk past almost anything that the Barbarian blitzed past.





Note:

I don't think you can get power attack damage on your off hand attacks, since they're probably light weapons.



Also, Power Attack isn't literally a Power Attack; that is you swing blindly and harder or something dumb liek that.

It's literally a Wind-up Attack.

Since you're swing your weapon from further back you deal more damage.

However, you give your intent away and get a penalty to hit.



Expertise on the other hand is really Parrying, you're trading off your abiltiy to hit in order to deflect attacks on you.

[User3]

Yeah, good advice again; but is TWF that good if you don't add rage dice to its attacks? And it's good to know someone puts clerics back in the "combat healer" role, since it's for that they were supposed to be geared (not to "I own everyone else"); also, the way you describe PA/CE is exactly how I always pictured it.

[Judging__Eagle]

TWF is a useful ability even if you lose Rage dice, since you get to multiply your Blitz and Power Attack damage.

It's literally the main reason why my lvl 6 barbarian was able to kill stuff so hard and fast. He'd blitz, provoke an AoO, get his rage dice + blitz damage in, and since you've already provoked an AoO, you might as well do it again, since you've probably burned through your enemies AoOs.

Also, TWF grants you bonus AoOs yourself, so you'll have your iterative attacks x2 in AoOs; and that's before Horde Breaker's dex added AoOs.

Actually, I prefer whirlwind + twf + blitz over Hordebreaker at killing mobs of guys; since I can go after my targets to kill them.

The really silly thing is that you'll actually need a spreadsheet to keep tabs on all the damage you can do with a barbarian.

The cleric will still pull off his Divine Power trick or Righteous Might; and he can probably get away with divine metamagic persisting it.

It's just that he fills in a different combat role than you do.

You're job is to kill mobs and mobs and mobs of guys, or kill one guy super fast.

His job is to be a flexible threat that can drop spells or kill anyone that's dumb enough to go after him. That or use his giant skeletons to deal with crap he doesn't feel like buffing for.


Also, all of this talk makes me want to play a Frenzy Barbarian build in diablo 2 again. I loved that build.

[Catharz]

[Edit]Two things would be nice to have in the armor section:
1) Guidelines for DMs creating new types of armor and shields. Something along the lines of...

• 
  
• What is armor? Something which takes time to put on.
  
• What is a shield? Something which can be readied quickly, a full-round action at most.
  
• To qualify as a new type of armor, it should look and feel different. If you're using the exact same ability list as another armor, you should probably just be using that armor.
  
• In some cases (specifically skill-based armor), permutations may make sense. One could imagine a version of the "vine shield" composed of mechanical parts and relying on Knowledge (engineering) rather than (nature).
  
• There should always be a good reason to use an armor. Otherwise you're wasting your time.

I honestly have no idea what your actual design concerns were, so this list is total guesswork.


1) What happens when you wear more than one armor at the same time?
My character may wish to wear a stillsuit under his silksteel while he's in the desert. He definately wants to wear magical clothes along with his adamantine breastplate while he's in the city.
Does only the 'visible' armor function? This makes sense for clothes. Should there be a limit on what types of armor can be worn together? It might make sense to require that an armor must be one or two degrees 'heavier' than the one it is worn over.
The numbers should be self evident: As usual, typed bonuses (i.e. the armor bonus) don't stack, penalties (ACP and ASP) do stack, and one uses the minimum max dex.
[/edit]



I remember some others suggesting the Bone Wall operate like the Bone Armor of Diablo II fame...

Bone Wall: A seemingly random assortment of bones collected into a large shield. With a simple gesture and a necromantic invocation, the souls of dead warriors animate it into a howling cloud which, thankfully, tries to protect you.

• Knowledge (Religion) Ranks Benefit
  4: You may use both hands while using the shield, although your attacks take a -2 penalty.
  8: The shield bonus applies to incorporeal touch attacks.
  13: You gain Positive Energy Resistance equal to the shield bonus of this shield.
  18: You take no penalty when using both hands.
  

Stats: AC+3, ACP 3, ASP 5?


Also, to replace some of the cut/paste in the shields section:

Wooden shield:Made of wood and held together with bands of steel or strips of leather, a wooden shield makes up in shock absorbance what it loses in resilience.

• BAB
  +1: Thrown weapons and missiles which miss you are lodged in the shield, you can use them as though you were carrying them.
  +5: Your shield acts as a wedge, providing a +2 bonus on disarm attempts.
  +10: You can make a disarm check as an AoO against any opponent missing you in melee or attempting to sunder your shield provoke an attack of opportunity from you.
  +15: ??? bonus against grapples, as usual?.
  

[Catharz]

Even more about armor! (see the above post if you didn't catch my edit)

There are three really 'iconic' armors in D&D: leather, chain mail, and plate mail. These should be usable by 1st level characters, and there should be reason for most characters starting out with these armors.

As a result, I propose the following changes:

Code: Select all

[br]Basic armors	|T|AC|MD|CP|SP|[br] Leather	|L| 2| 7| 1| 2|[br] Chain mail	|M| 5| 4| 2| 8|[br] Plate mail	|H| 8| 1| 6| 6|[br] Wooden	shield	|S| 2|--| 1| 0|[br] Steel shield	|S| 3|--| 2| 2|[br] Tower shield	|G| 4|--|10| 2|[br]

To go along with this, use 'greater than' language for all of the ACP rules. That is, a proficient thief can use leather armor without penalty despite the ACP of 1.

This means that a 1st-level rogue or cleric can use leather armor without worrying about speed reduction, a 1st-level warrior-type can wear chain mail without speed reduction, and a 1st-level warrior-type can still run in plate mail.


ACP is a wonderful way to give mechanical reasons for most players starting with leather armor rather than cooler armors, which are probably better used as in-game rewards. Of course, that's not to stop the odd fighter or knight from sucking up the penalty and lumbering around in lobster mail.


[Edit]Alternatively, how about some gp values?[Edit]

[virgil]

Is it me, or does it feel like the creations in books prior to the Races of War almost pale in comparison? Y'know, it feels like there's power creep going on here.

I mean, how is a Jester supposed to compare to a Fighter?

[AlphaNerd]

Jesters are actually pretty good. They've got decent random stuff (offensive and defensive), old-bard casting, 3/4 BAB, and decent sneak attack, and *poison use*.

That starts them out with, as like bards that can do level-appropriate combat (via sneak attack). But where they really own? Spellcasting. Glitterdust or Tasha's at 2nd character level? Feeblemind at 7th? This is from a casual reading of the spell list.

The only real reason they're bad is that they have a lot of options. Which aren't quite as good as a primary schtick, but I can see this class getting good use in a small or large party (probably not a midsize party).

Played right, I think they do just fine. Remember, they get the same feats as everyone else, they just need (or want, perhaps) to split their focus. With versatility comes a price.

[Iaimeki]

Jester is fine. Seriously, you have Use Magic Device in-class, spellcasting, sneak attack, and class features that are pretty decent--what more do you need?

The Dungeonomicon class that I'm worried doesn't keep up is the cooler one, the thief-acrobat. It gets a lot of neat movement abilities, but when all is said and done, I don't think it has the ability to match the other PC classes in terms of actual impact.

[Cielingcat]

It can pull out some of the same tricks the Rogue uses, but it lacks the Rogue special abilities. I think it can manage with sneak attack and the acrobatics stuff, though.

[RandomCasualty]

1177109127[/unixtime]]Is it me, or does it feel like the creations in books prior to the Races of War almost pale in comparison? Y'know, it feels like there's power creep going on here.

I mean, how is a Jester supposed to compare to a Fighter?

Yeah, I tend to feel the same way.

The rogue classes especially seem to have kind of got shafted. I mean, the whole point of being a rogue is that you were a fragile damage machine. The RoW barbarian and fighter are both damage machines too, only they're not fragile. So it's almost like sneak attack just isn't as good anymore. Barbarian rage dice alone are equivalent to sneak attack, only you're a raging barbarian instead of a fragile rogue.

[AlphaNerd]

Maybe I'm wrong (or optimistic), but I'm guessing that rogue will be rewritten and get a [Skill] Feat every time they level and don't get more sneak attack.