Design philosophies that make you rage?

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:19 am

Question: Why are nonflying wizards a problem? I mean, yeah flying wizards are aweome. It would be a shame if they disappeared from the fantasy genre. But one RPG isn't the fantasy genre, it's one world, one. If one world happened not to have magic flight, I wouldn't automatically declare it bullshit. But maybe you would. That's okay, not every RPG has to appeal to every player.

Look, flight doesn't become a balance problem as long as at least one of the following is true:

A: magic characters can't fly
B: no PC is nonmagic
C: flying is not a significant advantage
D: nonmagic characters can fly

And maybe more conditions I haven't thought of. Now look, *any* of these is easily, reasonably obtained.

Most reasonable settings have defined limits of what spellcasting can do. "No flight" is certainly tolerable. I can't name any RPGs off the top of my head that do this though.

Every PC in Exalted is magic. So are the PCs in RuneQuest, Dead Man's Hand, Bad Juju, Harry Potter, Glantri (an old D&D setting) and more.

D&D already allows nonmagic characters to ride hippogriffs. And use magic items like Boots of Flying. Other settings could introduce actual airplanes and shit. Now, it's arguable whether a swordsman with Boots of flying is actually a "nonmagic" character. (See B: no character is nonmagic). But while D&D provides the possibility for a straight Fighter to fly, it doesn't guarantee it. We could fix that. Write a setting involving mountaintop cities, ocean travel, swamps, or floating islands, in which hippogriffs and pegasi are tamed and plentiful and every 3rd-level fighter can buy a whole flock of them, and personal flight doesn't look so important.

Finally, consider preventing flying creatures from attacking efectively, or filling your setting with guns, wands, or even bows which are statted such that they can reliably and effectively shoot down casters.

Honestly, PR, if you're unwilling to do *any* of these things, you're kind of a douchebag.

But actually, I wanted to know what you thought of AoE fighters and single target Wizards.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:23 am

But actually, I wanted to know what you thought of AoE fighters and single target Wizards.

Oops. I must have missed that.

Question: Why are nonflying wizards a problem? I mean, yeah flying wizards are aweome. It would be a shame if they disappeared from the fantasy genre. But one RPG isn't the fantasy genre, it's one world, one. If one world happened not to have magic flight, I wouldn't automatically declare it bullshit. But maybe you would. That's okay, not every RPG has to appeal to every player.

I wouldn't spaz or anything, but it would make me sad not to have flying wizards.

Boolean wrote:Need I point out that one could *easily* design a game in which fighters were the AoO class and Wizards were single-target?

For Fighters, we can accept that we're at high enouch levels of "anime" (or mythic) that they can step between raindrops, and kill ten people in five seconds. Or, make a combat round *really* long. If one round is 30 seconds, we can easily justify "whirlwind" type abilities where a fighter dances through a large area getting one attack against everybody. This also lets us put mass combat and regular combat into the same minigame.

For Wizard, focus offensive magic on curses that destroy one persons soul, not on energy blasting. If rounds are long, their spells just take forever to charge up.

That is also possible. Didn't a round represent 1 minute in the past? Then again, I'd be really, really disappointed if fireball weren't in the game, because fireballing is just something that wizards do in D&D.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:27 am

Boolean wrote:Question: Why are nonflying wizards a problem? I mean, yeah flying wizards are aweome. It would be a shame if they disappeared from the fantasy genre. But one RPG isn't the fantasy genre, it's one world, one. If one world happened not to have magic flight, I wouldn't automatically declare it bullshit.

Yeah, really flying wizards are a rarity in a lot of fantasy. Generally if they fly it's because they transformed into a bird or something.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:38 am

Okay, it's crucial to your concept that Wizards fly and explode things. They are, in other words, something like bomber planes. Or maybe more like helicopters, or giant catapults.

Why don't you research some ways people have fought these forces historically and figure out which ones you're willing to give nonmagic characters.

Or, use the handy list I provided.

Ganbare Gincun · Post by **Ganbare Gincun** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:36 am

I'd love to see Flight spells get chopped. You want to fly? Get a flying mount or use Wild Shape to transform into a bird. But alas, I fear we've all become far too acclimated to the X-Men and Dragonball Z for this to be a popular choice...

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:43 am

What do fireball and perfect flight have to do with design philosophy?

-Crissa

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:55 am

Crissa wrote:What do fireball and perfect flight have to do with design philosophy?

-Crissa

We're suitably sidetracked at this point.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:59 am

Crissa wrote:What do fireball and perfect flight have to do with design philosophy?

-Crissa

Because some people think that it's fair to make some classes be explicitly inferior to other classes without some form of compensation and then telling these inferior people that it's the price they pay for their character concept--only the inferiority isn't that bad so they should suck it up.

Flight and fireballs are the two most visible symbols of 'wizards are better than fighters' so it's no surprise the conversation drifted in that direction.

violence in the media · Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:17 am

Psychic Robot wrote:[
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
Bonfires. They aren't as hot as fireballs.

That's a pretty swingy temperature range. Lead melts at 327.5 C/621 F. The other metals listed are in the 950+ C/1750+ F range.

Also, fire can get get pretty hot.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:25 am

Because some people think that it's fair to make some classes be explicitly inferior to other classes without some form of compensation and then telling these inferior people that it's the price they pay for their character concept--only the inferiority isn't that bad so they should suck it up.

Personally, I would say that the problem is not whether or not the fighter is beaten by the wizard - but that the fighter is rendered worse than useless by the wizard.

Or to put it another way...

Fire > swords is fine.

"We have fire. Why do we need swords?" is not fine at all.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:45 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Flight and fireballs are the two most visible symbols of 'wizards are better than fighters' so it's no surprise the conversation drifted in that direction.

I think flight and invisibility tend to be the wizard superiority powers, rather than fireball. Only PR seems to think fireball is super powerful.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:57 pm

Why are you wanking off to blasting for piddly shit anyways? This is obviously directed at PR.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:52 pm

violence in the media wrote: That's a pretty swingy temperature range. Lead melts at 327.5 C/621 F. The other metals listed are in the 950+ C/1750+ F range.

Also, fire can get get pretty hot.

It's also the question of energy input. The flame of a common lighter has temperature of 2000+ K, yet it's not possible to use it to cut metals, because heat conductivity of almost any given metal is through the roof. So it's not enough to have a flame of T .gt. melting point, you have to maintain that T for a significant period of time to heat the whole metallic object to melting point and then some (because the solid->liquid transition also eats up energy). While D&D round is 6 seconds long, and Fireball doesn't even last for a round.

Ganbare Gincun · Post by **Ganbare Gincun** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:20 am

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote: Flight and fireballs are the two most visible symbols of 'wizards are better than fighters' so it's no surprise the conversation drifted in that direction.
I think flight and invisibility tend to be the wizard superiority powers, rather than fireball. Only PR seems to think fireball is super powerful.

SoS and SoD spells are the ones that rule the roost in 3.X. Killing people, enslaving them, or just taking their actions away beats shelling them with fireballs any day of the week. Or it's a great prelude to shelling them with fireballs. Whatever floats your boat, really.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:22 am

Ganbare Gincun wrote: SoS and SoD spells are the ones that rule the roost in 3.X. Killing people, enslaving them, or just taking their actions away beats shelling them with fireballs any day of the week. Or it's a great prelude to shelling them with fireballs. Whatever floats your boat, really.

SoDs are very powerful, but not really gamebreaking. The thing is that even warblades or rogues in 3.5 are going to be doing impressive damage, so it's not like they can't bring a foe down in one round.

And of course generic counters like just having good saves or SR works against SoD. Invisibility and flight require very specific counters. Even if your saves are massive, like a collossal scorpion, you have no easy recourse against flight or greater invisibility.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:03 am

Boolean wrote: I gotta, say, I was a little bit pissed at being told to "guzzle santorum." But you gotta understand, it's different from accpetable behavior here only in degree.

If he had told me to go suck a bag of cocks, I would have taken it completely in stride.

Sigged

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:06 am

Could you at least clean up my grammar and spelling if you're going to immortalize my delirious ranting?

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:41 am

I guess the melting point of gold in D&D land is like lead... It's not like it's impossible to wade through lava and stuff there, anyhow, and it is possible to parry molten lead with your bare hands iRL (as long as you have a bucket of water at hand to douse your hand before each parry); blame my spouse for me knowing that.

-Crissa

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:27 am

Crissa wrote:I guess the melting point of gold in D&D land is like lead... It's not like it's impossible to wade through lava and stuff there, anyhow, and it is possible to parry molten lead with your bare hands iRL (as long as you have a bucket of water at hand to douse your hand before each parry); blame my spouse for me knowing that.

That sounds like an interesting story. o.O

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:26 am

So anyway, now that everyone is done being stupid with bullshit physics overriding game balance...

I have a copy of the PHBII and ALL of the non-grandfathered classes suck. They're not original and they're only interesting because they represent aspects of classes we used to know before they got their balls chopped off like naughty poodles. Seriously, why do we need a warden? Wardens are literally just fighters with a nature theme and trade offense for defense. Shamans are druids with the serial numbers filed off, spirits replacing the shapeshifting, and some healing powers slapped on to justify their 'healer' role. Avengers are just paladins in cloth armor and with a berserkly powerful class feature that's wasted on such a shit power list. Sorcerers are fine, but why the fuck do we need two ranged arcane strikers? The special effects aren't even all that different, it's just that sorcerers might be a little more dragony or wildy. Invokers are just laser clerics who get nothing but lasery powers and some summons to hide the fact that WotC is recycling the class.

Barf. I hate this kind of blatant padding. And you know what the stupid thing is? They didn't have to resort to this crap. They could've reprinted the artificer and the swordmage in this book and introduced the monk, samurai, psion, and soulknife people have been clamouring for since this edition came out.

Fucking Wizards.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:44 pm

What book is the artificer in?

Also, I'm pretty sure that psion is going to be the wizard, but with more psychic damage, that the samurai will be the fighter but KI-POWERED, and that the soulknife will be boring.

And yes, padding is what happens when you make classes based entirely around combat roles and not theme.