The Gaming Den

The problem with Wraithlords is their T8. This means that if you take one balanced armies should have enough anti tank to remove it in reasonable time. Heavy bolters and Assault cannons aren't really a solution to it because they only wound on 6's. At this point your hardly even scratching the damn thing.

This is why 3 of them is a problem, most balanced armies don't take that much anti tank weaponry.

On a whole I like most of 5e changes. I don't like the way they work out new scenarios, but it's not that terrible. I like the change to moral, I like the change to rending.

Unfortunately there was a unintended nerf to Necrons and Nids. I'm just waiting for my army to get redone for the new rules, and then I'll see if I want to start again.

Till then i actually do want to get a fantasy army.

Thymos wrote:Heavy bolters and Assault cannons aren't really a solution to it because they only wound on 6's.

They have a high fire rater and they work at range, and it is more than possible to field a LOT of heavy bolter fire. The Wraith Lord is only really one, MAYBE two heavy weapons, probably with low fire rate, at that range with only mid range BS, and it has a mediocre armor save as it's only protection beyond that.

Lots of heavy bolters are a good general tool and they can also kill wraithlords. It's only 3 wounds, even exchanging shot for shot with a heavy weapon marine unit or something you probably have about comparable survivability once you run the numbers.

Of course if you have any sense you also have some, indeed a whole bunch, of other junk suitable for taking on armor 12+ vehicles, instant killing multi wound toughness 3 or 4 characters, and threatening other monstrous critters.

Three Wraithlords may be challenge for a balanced list but it no list that can't at least promise a reasonable chance at beating that challenge is worth being called "balanced", let alone "good". And if you don't have the fire power to take down at least two then your list-fu is incredibly weak.

So tonight I played 1K points of Sisters against my sister's Dark Eldar Wych army. I think she has 1.5-2K total, but I was teaching her the rules, so thought "quicker is better".

She defeated me, but it came very close. My transports were crazy good, and not for transporting: very little could actually penetrate Armour 10. Yes, that's right. Each squad had a blaster (S8 AP1 Lance) and shredder (S6 Blast), there was one Warrior with a Splinter Cannon (S4 Assault 4), the Jetbikes had a pair of Shredders and the Raider had a Disintegrator (S4? Assault 3 or S6-ish Blast, depending on how you choose to fire it).

So basically, entire squads were wasting their turns trying to kill a fucking RHINO, with the Shredders scattering, and me getting lucky with the Blasters for a while (and all the other weapons being 100% useless, and then they couldn't assault anyone else and coudn't hurt the Rhino in Assault). And the Disintegrator somehow failed to hurt my Canoness, whereas the S-Cannon took two of her Wounds away. Embarrassing.

More armies need to be almost full of S3 weapons/melee attacks.

Koumei wrote: very little could actually penetrate Armour 10. Yes, that's right. Each squad had a blaster (S8 AP1 Lance) and shredder (S6 Blast), there was one Warrior with a Splinter Cannon (S4 Assault 4), the Jetbikes had a pair of Shredders and the Raider had a Disintegrator (S4? Assault 3 or S6-ish Blast, depending on how you choose to fire it).

Those numbers don't back the scenario. That sounds like plenty of power to penetrate armor 10.

3 squads of Wyches (only one of which could reach the Rhino, the other two were dealing with Sisters and a Repressor, which is like a Rhino with Front Armour 12). So 6 weapons that could crack the tank open (and even the Shredder could glance a Land Raider).

Plus 2 more on the Reavers.

And the Disintegrator on the giant target Raider, which wasn't heading towards the Rhino and exploded a little bit on the first round.

So... 9 weapons in the 1,000 point game (10 if you count the Splinter Cannon which could Glance the rear armour on a 6 - but gets 4 shots so could quite possibly do it), and in nearly every case. And in basically every case, using one meant the rest of the entire squad sits around sipping tea.

Keep in mind that when the Wyches, who are great Assaulters against soft targets, shoot a tank to break a hole in it, they then have the options of "Do nothing" and "Assault the tank (and do nothing)" for their Assault phase.

It was pretty awesome, actually. Because she realised the necessity of taking the tanks out (kill points), and thus ended up focusing three entire squads on the 35 point Rhino. Which seriously kept the Celestians alive so much longer.

I think I need more METAL BOXES, to field mechanised Sister armies.

I thought you could assault the contents of a transport if you shot at it in the shooting phase in 5e?

I'm not sure, quite possibly you can (assuming they're in it when you destroy it, and clamber out). But it didn't matter - the contents of it had disembarked one round ago and were already shooting them.

So Mandrakes and Wyches swarmed around that squad of Sisters and murdered them horrifically (not before they took out the Beast Pack. Flamers are <3). Then they're all standing around feeling a bit stupid and having to hike around the terrain to the other side of the board.

Sort of like how my Repentias felt in Apocalypse when they took out a friggin Stompa (possibly a Mega Stompa, I forget) and realised the closest enemy was several feet away, with difficult terrain scattered along the way.

Koumei wrote:But it didn't matter - the contents of it had disembarked one round ago and were already shooting them.

Which like the rest of your vague anecdote just raises a lot of questions.

Like why were they attacking weak sauce transports over squads of what are basically marines?

You are telling us a rather silly story about Wyches, which are if I recall Banshees only somehow slightly better (so basically "teh suck +1") and telling us they suck (which I'll believe) but they do so because they under perform when you use them like a complete idiot (which I'd call the wrong reasons behind the right conclusion).

Dark Eldar had squads with lance weapons? those transports had no business reaching disembarking range. And once they did the melee gimp squads had no business prioritizing empty transports over other targets. Even the warrior squads at that point should have turned fire on the units first.

This sort of thing is exactly why GW players don't know the difference between OP and Arse. A highly questionable anecdote doesn't equal irrefutable evidence or counter evidence of "cheese".

In other news I've had GW players tell me that in war hammer fantasy the Vampire Counts are OP. Well. Maybe they are I doubt it, but I'd give them some benefit of the doubt there. If only they didn't go on to then say since the most recent codex. And then cite the specific example of ghouls a unit which was actually downgraded in the latest codex... (Same stat line, same price, lost skirmish and alive, upped minimum unit size).

PhoneLobster wrote: Like why were they attacking weak sauce transports over squads of what are basically marines?

IIRC, they attacked the Sisters first, wiped them out in all of one combat, then realised they were "the rest of the entire game" away from the rest of the battle. But maybe not, it's possible that the Sisters were just getting swarmed by two other squads that really didn't need their help.

And for the record, I'm not actually using this to prove any kind of point. I'm not saying "This army had trouble penetrating Armour 10/11, therefore Wraithlords are broken" or anything, it was just "Incidentally, this is how my most recent game went. I need more Rhinos".

Though I am considering being a [EDITED] and, for the next game, fielding Inquisition with a Land Raider (14/14/14) and some Chimerae (13/10/10).

Wyches, which are if I recall Banshees only somehow slightly better (so basically "teh suck +1") and telling us they suck (which I'll believe)

They are pretty lame unless they're fighting living groups. Many armies have a single useful army list, apparently, and DE are one: Wyches, lots of Wyches. In transports. With Dark Lances on the transports.

Because the Raider sweeps them around fast enough that they can then get places, they can actually hold their own against (more expensive) Marines (Terminators will hold them down and sodomise them, but are you really going to waste their Assault phase handling Wyches?) and the Raiders can shoot tanks.

But yeah. They're the fleeting close-combat things that suck when they're not in assaulting range of fleshy targets. They get 2 attacks (3 for the leader), +1 for charging, and have combat drugs that can give them 12" charge, +1 A, re-roll failed To Hit, +1 WS and the like. If there's a +1 S then that'd be fucking useful, I can't remember. But you roll randomly for what drugs you get at the start of the battle.

And one member of the squad can tell the enemies "You get -1 to hit" and goes first, even if the enemy is in cover, one can tell them "you lose bonus attacks for multiple weapons" and do the Scorpion "Get Over Here" thing, and one can go last but double their attacks (after modifiers. So a Succubus with the drugs, charging, is looking at 10 attacks).

But they are S3 and not even power weapons. The Succubus can buy shit like "always wound on a 2+, you need to buy two for the two-weapons bonus attack" or "Two-Handed Power Weapon, +1 S" or whatever, but it's rarely worth it.

You see how it works by now, I'm sure.

but they do so because they under perform when you use them like a complete idiot (which I'd call the wrong reasons behind the right conclusion).

Well obviously they suck when used badly - yes, targeting a Rhino is a bad option clearly, but they either had no other options or were in a position where they had the best (small) chance, and the others were handling the Sisters.

As for the right conclusion, their suckitude is debatable. For their cost, I'd say they're acceptable. You just have to use them for their intended purpose, and buy the special weapons on the off-chance that you find yourself having to blow a tank up.

Dark Eldar had squads with lance weapons? those transports had no business reaching disembarking range.

The Blaster is a Lance with a short range. It's like a Pistol Lance. First turn, she ran forward (as you do), then my vehicles zoomed out from behind complete "blocks 100% LoS" cover, the full 12" and activated their smoke launchers. Then they closed in and were able to use the special weapons. It's not a proper "I can see my house from here" Dark Lance though. That's a Heavy weapon, and I think only Raiders/Ravagers and the winged guys can take them.

Even the warrior squads at that point should have turned fire on the units first.

The Warrior squad was on the other side of the field - remember, I deployed last so I made sure to be as safe as possible. The Warriors had 4x "I can't hurt shit" and the Splinter Cannon (which would have to take it from behind in order to glance).