Things Other People Aren't Allowed to Like

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:18 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: The movie Willow. Watch the finale again, the VAHs are completely fucking useless against Bavmorda.

That's fine until you consider that Willow didn't win with sorcery, he won with trickery and thievery. Willow was a rogue (a type of VAH).

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:21 pm

hes' clearly a Wizard/Rogue. And Rogues aren't nearly as screwed as Fighters in the VAH department, because of use magic device, and scrolls and all those yummy skills they have.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:39 am

Sabs wrote:And I didn't say her whole thing was throwing a sharp piece of metal. I showed how one of the things she does is patently un VAH.

She is doing the things VAH's do in VAH ways with VAH results. Being really, really, really, really good at VAH things does not graduate you out of being a VAH. She is an inhumanly powerful VAH, much like Conan when he's being written as killing fifty dudes.

Nothing you have provided an example of is anything a level 20 fighter doesn't have and have more of, and the exact problem with level 20 fighters is that they are still VAH's when everyone else has graduated from that realm of play.

You are definitionally confused. "She's one of the most powerful things in the fiction! Ergo, she has to be level 20/more than a VAH!" That's a no.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:51 am

No, she's not a VAH because she does things that are patently unrealistic. She's not Vanilla, she's chocolate swirl.

And I never said she had to be level 20. But she's definitely out of the realm of John Mcclean or even Conan usually. For peaes sake, have you watched Xena? She often does effectively Wire Kung Fu.

If you're going to expand VAH to being able to do things that are patently impossible in real life, then what the hell. That's not a VANILLA action hero.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:54 am

are we having this argument again

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:08 am

now who's going off on some fanboy fappery?
Xena is just simply Badass Normal, except for occasional instances when the power of plot lets her have a plot-relevant Charles Atlas Superpower.

She's still a VAH.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:09 am

sabs wrote:She routinely gets into duels with the God of War, and WINS.

Honest question: did the Gods in Xena do anything beyond the abilities of a 9th-level Wizard?

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:21 am

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
sabs wrote:She routinely gets into duels with the God of War, and WINS.
Honest question: did the Gods in Xena do anything beyond the abilities of a 9th-level Wizard?

well, I guess the granting of apotheosis would probably be outside the realm of a 9th level wizard.

just sayin'.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:19 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:are we having this argument again

It's the gift that keeps on giving ...

... pain, that is.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:08 am

I figured that sabs was simply just making some kind of painfully sarcastic argument towards Xena, trying to showcase the stubborn ignorance of most people toward fighter types. Far as the whole Razor disc thing goes, sounds like a rather low level fighter type effects to what it can do, save for the promise of cutting stone heads, and slaying Dragons. However if the capabilities she's actually shown are regularly in the lower ends of the power levels, then that's pretty much where she belongs. The idea she fights "gods" just names really, if they fail to show the actual power that their title implies, then they're actually not of that powerlevel. Sorta like 4th edition with its epic destines and what not. What's shown is what important here, far any exaggeration to their abilities, those are basically like the rumors of the setting, their reputation preceding them kind of deal.

As for Conan, I know in the story "Phoenix on the Sword" where he's a King, and I guess a bit at the top end of his power (maybe slightly below, whole no longer in his "prime" or whatever). He does get ambushed in his bed chamber, does go into how most folk be groggy from their slumber, whereas Conan woke up immediately alert, and thus in this case doesn't get surprised so much. In that story he was up against apparently heavily armed big fighters, whereas rather unarmored, and basically murdering through them with an old waraxe.

Despite I do enjoy Conan stories, I am accepting that he's a rather low level concept. That as game progresses, he needs to upgrade or be swept in the dust. Although don't like the idea that the flavor to his abilities do, like him becoming "magical", or fueled on god power. Rather, more lines of sheerly being BA, Charles Atlas Superpower all the way. Much like as Lago has mentioned on here about One Piece, where people can train to have super strength, and other superpowers, "Just cause".

I can accept in essence everyone needs to have Wizard-like abilties, around 11th level or so, where by then all PC's have access to essentially ability of flight, whether it's from a literal spell, walking on the air/riding Nimbus, or just "Jump Good" Hulk/Samurai Jack style. Believe it's been mentioned how Frank said those abilities in some other thread how the abilities don't have to come online same time, different intervals to make them seem special and all that.

Lastly, like the thread in my signature, I'd be all for there being a thread like that on here, giving even more examples of Low level generic fighters, super BA ones, and so forth. Such as still been wondering what level Goku of Dragon Ball was at any point in that story...

K wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty tired of stats altogether. They had meaning back in the day when the only difference between two Fighters or Thieves was magic items and stats, but we've gotten past those dark ages.

Oh! wondering if there's any more that can be said by K as to why Attributes are just outdated piece of design and need to go away. Not that I disagree, more that to hear the logical reasons to how they're bad Design and seems a very fitting topic for this thread as well.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:43 am

If Attributes are never referenced directly, but solely used to derive other values (such as lifting capacity or damage bonus ) then the system using such attributes has chargen which is more complex that necessary. You could get the same result by having players assign the derived values directly and fewer calculatons and chart lookups would be needed.

If Attributes are sometimes referenced directly (such as a Str check to break a door) and sometimes part of a derived bonus (such as 3e's Climb skill) then you get two possibilities: The first possibility is that direct attribute tasks and the derived bonus tasks have greatly varying difficulties at the same target number - which is potentially confusing and potentially unbalancing. The second possibility is that the difficulties will be largely similar and a task with target number N will be about the same difficulty whether it's resolved with direct attribute rolls or with some derived number; yet if the system works when difficulties are similar there's no obvious reason why it can't work when they are exactly the same - in which case you can get the exact same results without calculating derived values.

So attributes only really make design sense when they are always referenced directly within a system. The old D&D "roll under your attribute" method of handling everything that wasn't an attack, save, thief ability or spell largely did this.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:02 am

If you took stats away, D&D fans of a previous edition would decry it as false, perhaps compare it to a videogame, and continue playing with what they've been playing for the last 10-30 years of their lives.
Most people don't care about the mechanics as much as you guys, and in the end these are companies with a product to sell.

Despite I do enjoy Conan stories, I am accepting that he's a rather low level concept. That as game progresses, he needs to upgrade or be swept in the dust. Although don't like the idea that the flavor to his abilities do, like him becoming "magical", or fueled on god power

That's the level I'd like to play at. But just because there's rules for 14 more levels, do you really need to take them? Why not just be content playing Conan-Tier and leave it at that? The world begins unraveling if you start sticking level 20 wizards in there. There's already people who do "encounter level 6" D&D.

. Rather, more lines of sheerly being BA, Charles Atlas Superpower all the way. Much like as Lago has mentioned on here about One Piece, where people can train to have super strength, and other superpowers, "Just cause".

I like that approach as a 'limit breaker'. been reading it for 10+ years and it's a steady progression of power. Though Swordsman Zoro could already chuck houses from the start...

It pretty much boils down to
"I have this idea of what fantasy is, and want my D&D game to reflect this"
vs
"I know what D&D is at different levels, and this idea is only level ____"

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 am

The movie Willow. Watch the finale again, the VAHs are completely fucking useless against Bavmorda. She transforms the entire army that the PCs bring into pigs, and only magic transforms some characters back into humans so that they can participate in the final battle. Then in the actual confrontation, she picks up all the fighters and throws them at spikes using telekinesis, which they are completely fucking powerless to do anything about and they are saved at the last minute by friendly magic, but still never manage to accomplish fuck all.

-Username17

Sounds like they needed "Iron heart surge".

and I'm not contridicting frank or trying to poke fun etc. I"m saying...

I resent the whole VAH, gaming den, non-sense.

Maybe I'm off key here, I don't know what 1-piece is except to say "its some anime" but yeah...

Vanilla action hero is a meme that exists at only when the game is an action movie.
When the game turns into something else the pc is supposed to become something else, because a fantasy game world has no limits on what can be done, then your character is unlimited in what can be done as well.
I also find it a cop-out argument, that says:

Then we have anime and chuck norris jokes.

Well thats to be expected when there is ANYONE in the party who is playing as a "god-lite".

I'm doubly annoyed that the whole argument that the "concept" is no good because it doesn't apply in epic.
Its just such hypocrisy "Vah's can't exist in epic" then define epic as "A tippyverse"

So. . . here's the deal.
At low levels that guy is Lancelot. (1-5)
at Low to mid he's Wolverine (6-10)
at mid to high? Paul Bunyun (11-15)
at High? 16 - 20 He's an alien God, or a dragon, or the Sentry (Notable in that the molecule mans powers don't work on him, and that he's not been around long enough for author inconsistencey to affect him, so fuck you an that arugment before it starts)

Now I'm not making a direct paradigmn to any of those dudes but I'm saying thats how this shit is supposed to work if you're playing in a world with unlimited physics due to magic and gods and whatever.

So if your last level wizard, and last level 20 fighter they should both be doing similar things. Otherwise you've reached fail.

Hey, here's an example. You know the levels where I said "Paul Bunyun"?
Somewhere in there a wizard can probbably make a Hole big enough that it'd a small canyon using multiple castings of stone shape. . .
So in the fantasy world handing a player a human "Badass" a shovel he can dig something that fast, and that deep, etc. Thats the concept.
You take the limits off human potential?
Or you place 4th edition limits on magic?
Anything else is just self-righteous, faux high-minded bullshit.

...
On Constitution, I hear a lot of intersting arguement about why it shouldn't be there. . .
So I'm going to say that Strength and Dexterity do not equal "toughness".
Honestly, niether does "willpower" but I'll nod it and say that some people supplant toughness w/mental toughness sometimes.

I think that in gaming terms the power to be "super durable" is just as valuable as being "super Agile" or "Super strong".

Doesnt' matter if its passive or not, it conceptually makes sense that "Hey look, that guy can Run further, Swim to the bottom of the ocean (I don't get the bends, no), walk on the moon unprotected. . .

So as long as were still using stats, why not? Constitution/Toughness/Fortitude is a real thing and is one of the main traits of atheletes.
Also this guy. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg
Now, excuse me... while I go and impregnate a beehive.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:53 pm

Midnight_v wrote: and I'm not contridicting frank or trying to poke fun etc. I"m saying...

I resent the whole VAH, gaming den, non-sense.

I think Lago (among other regulars) have taken it way too far, but then again I expect his (and their) gaming experience doesn't match mine.

The basic premise is that certain gamers want heroes like the kinds found in most Hollywood action movies to be viable PC archetypes, and yet that archetype is flat-out not viable beyond a certain level of D&D. The contention is that within a randomized environment such as a TTRPG, there is a point where a character both compete effectively and still pass for just being a normal guy who is fast, tough, strong, and good with a weapon (what he has dubbed the VAH). So either these characters are subpar at such levels (see 3e fighters above 8th level) or the characters have to get freaky superpowers which render them something different than the base archetype and that upsets people.

Lago has argued rather extensively that the problem is not with the D&D ruleset, but rather with many people's preconceptions of what's "realistic", "reasonable" or "humanly possible" - so that even in rules-lite or rules-less settings, people are more willing to suspend their disbelief for a wizard who can fly, turn invisible and throw lightning bolts than for a warrior who can jump from one kingdom to the next, sneak past sentries looking directly at him, and hit people so hard they turn into fumaroles - even though those are exactly the same powersets. For some reason, people are more willing to accept "it's magic" as an explanation than "it took years of training" or "this guy is just superhumanly good at it." And I have to admit that there is something to that assertion.

However, I've been reading superhero comic books for 36 years now, watching anime about characters with more-than-human abilities for 28 years, playing various arcade fighting games where knowing the right kind of karate lets you throw fireballs for 18 years and watching the occasionally wuxia film where being a swordmaster means you can fly or entangle enemies with your eyebrows and the like. Moreover, most of the people with whom I have gamed have similar experiences. Heck, one of them even went as far as to write an RPG based on explictly-more-than-mortals heroes

So in my own experience, Lago's extensive rants and his invented terminology don't make much sense. I have personally been able to sidestep most of his issues by asking and describing the power levels and genre of a game in terms of commonly referenced fiction from those types of work. Now of course, this inevitably leads to new arguments about how powerful characters in those works really are - but so has every thread Lago has ever made complaining about DMFs or VAHs or Atlas Shrugged Superpowers and Plot Immunity.

Also this guy. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg

We did have to tell the flaming gay guy in our group that, No! he couldn't retire his existing Champions character in order to bring in a superhero based on that...

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:45 pm

Short version:

Most people (except Lago's group) will take anime Fighters over being reduced to lick the wizard's balls.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:07 am

Oh, come on. Stop being so obtuse/disingenuous/trolly. We all know what the VAH term is a response to: the New York City Hypothesis.

A Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Bard, or indeed any character that has explicitly supernatural abilities written on the class description can, should, and will do all sorts of things that in any other medium would break suspension of disbelief into subatomic particles.

A Fighter, Barbarian, or indeed any character that does not have explicitly supernatural abilities must be constrained by what is possible today in real world New York, New York.

The VAH is the character who could exist in the real world, yet for some reason is expected to compete with people who say shit like, "I'm a fucking demon. Blasphemy, bitches." The cognitive dissonance inherent in the idea is the whole point of VAH.

So Xena is not a VAH (i.e., some things she does are impossible). John McLean is (i.e., no things he does are impossible). There are fun stories to be told regarding each of them, but one is a VAH and one is not.

Xena does stuff that would set grognards into apoplexy (e.g., hitting 7 people with her chakram with a single throw and then catching it in her teeth) if they saw a Fighter do something similar at their 2e gaming table. That's the real issue.

Obviously the people in this thread are willing to have their "Fighters" do things that do not conform to the NYC Hypothesis, so they're not really the people who the VAH topic even applies to.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:18 am

I've said it a few times before, but given that having VAH's compete with wizards is, by definition, impossible, why are we even arguing about it? Why do we, as a forum, care that some gaming groups, somewhere want to play a game that cannot possibly exist? Sure, it kind of sucks to be a guy who likes Fighters in a group like that, but threads about that sort of thing go in ITT, not IMHO.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:18 am

The best response to people freaking out about natural characters doing supernatural things is trolling.

"No way, that's impossible. People can't do that."
"Sure they can, they just have to be really good at it."
"No way, I could ne-"
"That's because you're morbidly obese. If you even watched the Olympics you'd see it can be done. And probably lose weight at the same time. Which you should think about doing."

Just remind them that the bar is not what they could personally do, it's what completely awesome peak-of-conditioning-training-and-DNA-lottery people could potentially do. Throw in some stuff that isn't necessarily true (that they have no way of proving false) - adrenaline letting people lift cars*, masters of martial arts being able to lock their own joints such that industrial machines can't bend their limbs, professional hypnotists effectively turning invisible by getting people's attention and making those people then ignore their presence doing anything whatsoever...

*Not lifting one end, sort of using the tires of the other end as a lever, but actually grabbing the underside and just lifting the whole thing up.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:13 am

OgreBattle wrote:If you took stats away, D&D fans of a previous edition would decry it as false, perhaps compare it to a videogame, and continue playing with what they've been playing for the last 10-30 years of their lives.
Most people don't care about the mechanics as much as you guys, and in the end these are companies with a product to sell.

Yes, people who like to play games with rules, but will likely not follow half of them anyway. Also such folk are likely to "continue" playing those games, regardless if this new game has attributes or not (or hell, even implements them better).

That's the level I'd like to play at. But just because there's rules for 14 more levels, do you really need to take them? Why not just be content playing Conan-Tier and leave it at that? The world begins unraveling if you start sticking level 20 wizards in there. There's already people who do "encounter level 6" D&D.

Pardon if I wasn't as clear, or I misunderstood the post, but I thought what I said was supporting along lines of that? Regardless, I'm totally fine with level 1-5th being "Conan-tier" and such adventures playing that character concept ends around those levels. Thus, if want to play 6th+ level adventures, Conan has to gain new abilities that'll compete for that level. Saying, can still have the BA cimmerian idea, even if he's uprooting tree's, and Jumping like 100ft. Just don't think the source of his power needs to change to being similar like that of a cleric, mutant, or even Space Marine juice (whatever). The explanation for his power can simply just be as it always was, "he's just that awesome". Hell, would think most people wouldn't really care, so long as throw an explanation like that for fighters having superpowers, sounds like it'd be good enough for my group (shrugs).

I like that approach as a 'limit breaker'. been reading it for 10+ years and it's a steady progression of power. Though Swordsman Zoro could already chuck houses from the start...

Whoa, when was Zoro chucking houses?!

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:52 am

how about, people who like the stats aka ability scores, think the represent something that is meaningful to their concept of what the game should provide, therefore prefer them as opposed to something else.

wargames, RPG, video games, all use "personal" stats for things by and large. not many divorce such things from the game entirely as you have no baseline for judgment.

people like to be able to compare things to the real world, so they can relate to them, be it games, movies, books, etc.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:57 am

Aryxbez wrote:Whoa, when was Zoro chucking houses?!

He does it to intimidate some fishmen early on in the Arlong arc. He just lifts up a two-story house and tosses it with his rage... and he's not even supposed to be the strongest guy arc, since it's stated that fishmen outclass human beings physically. Of course being One Piece this is barely an obstacle at all. If someone is literally ten times stronger than you are and knows a martial arts better than yours, you just kick the shit out of them anyway.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:04 pm

Chamomile wrote:I've said it a few times before, but given that having VAH's compete with wizards is, by definition, impossible, why are we even arguing about it?

It's really not. It all depends on what you want a wizard to be able to do. It's impossible to balance a 3E wizard with a VAH as you guys conceptualize a 3E wizard.

4E balances VAHs with wizards fine.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:06 pm

Swordslinger wrote:4E balances VAHs with wizards fine.

By turning the wizard into a VMH.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:01 pm

shadzar wrote: people like to be able to compare things to the real world, so they can relate to them, be it games, movies, books, etc.

Well, to some degree I would agree with this. Such as how I always enjoyed in the 3rd edition books, they had comparisons for stuff like strength or intelligence scores to other creatures/monsters in the game. So it was awesome knowing by having like 23 strength, ye were as strong as a troll, or how amassing likr 45+ would give you the might of a Titan! (which as starting out, wanted to make that my goal, of having more strength than a Titan would). Otherwise, being able to look at some attributes, and compare them to how they'd impact in reality or the setting itself, is of some importance. The idea of wanting it to model reality of course, would be rather stupid for a game of heroic fantasy, that is D&D. As people want to be able to look at their super strength, and go "I'm strong enough to pick up that car? awesome!". Although seems like most people don't actually see that with numbers at all, so getting rid of them, and just having abilities like "Super Strength" or "Dragoon/Mario/Jump Good Leaping might" would likely be bit far more better understood. As Caedrus/OneWinged4ngel had said: "Some people don't seem to visualize how big that 5th-level wizard's 80 foot wide, lesser-metamagic-rod-enlarged fireball is, or a wall of stone, or dealing the damage to cut through a 10 foot thick stone wall."

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Aryxbez wrote:Whoa, when was Zoro chucking houses?!
He does it to intimidate some fishmen early on in the Arlong arc. He just lifts up a two-story house and tosses it with his rage... and he's not even supposed to be the strongest guy arc, since it's stated that fishmen outclass human beings physically. Of course being One Piece this is barely an obstacle at all. If someone is literally ten times stronger than you are and knows a martial arts better than yours, you just kick the shit out of them anyway.

Oh pfft, my apologies, when he said "swordsman Zoro" I read it as the masked swashbuckler Zorro for some reason (shakes head). I guess I'm used to him being called "Zolo" or something like that, but he's still awesome though, Tri-sword fighting, and shreds up trains? Hell yeah. What level/kind of fighter would place Zoro from One Piece at?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:40 pm

Aryxbez wrote:for a game of heroic fantasy, that is D&D.

except, it is not. you can play it that way if you want, but it isnt about heroic fantasy. this can go in the other thread to not derail this one on general ideas...but D&D isnt a game of heroic fantasy, although you can play it that way if you wish to. 4th edition, which is not D&D, but a version thereof; has the unmet premise of being heroic fantasy.