[Economics] If Obama actually gives us the VSP Grand Bargain

Neeeek · Post by **Neeeek** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:51 pm

Josh_Kablack wrote:Another camoflagued FUCK YOU to the working class on top of the FUCK YOU to the working class that was the payroll tax reversion hike.

I can't find stats for percentage of returns usually filed in January, but based on an educated guess, that shift in timing is probably gonna delay something like a quarter of the $~60 billion in EITC payments that go to the working poor with children.....you know those people most likely to spend that money in the local economy and least likely to use it to open another factory in China.

I would guess that if you are doing it yourself, you won't be able to efile until midway through the first week of February. The massive uploads by the various tax services will crash the IRS server when it goes up, probably several times in the first week or so.

K · Post by K » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:02 pm

Apparently, the National Republican Congressional Committee doesn't know how money works because they released this image on Twitter:

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:05 pm

I don't get it. Why do we need $1 trillion in platinum to have a $1 trillion coin?

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:18 pm

I don't get it. The Titanic already sunk.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:31 pm

name_here wrote:It probably has something to do with how the IRS computer system is from the very depths of hell and coded in a confusing combination of assembler, COBOL, and whatever other languages they felt like throwing in. They probably need the extra time to slaughter chickens and burn incense to appease its machine-spirit. Although I think starting this year it no longer has any six-bit code in it (Not a joke).

Don't worry, they should have it modernized for 32-bit systems and Windows XP by 2005, 2007, 2012, 2020

At least someone caught the part of their press release that was an outright lie about prior year tax season start dates.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:35 pm

Maj wrote:I don't get it. Why do we need $1 trillion in platinum to have a $1 trillion coin?

We don't. In fact, the whole coin trick wouldn't work if they did it that way. The reason it works is because of seigniorage; the same idea behind making commemorative coins. The coin is worth more than the platinum of which it's made. Sort of like how a $100 bill isn't actually worth $100 in raw materials. That image is either a pathetic strawman, or a conservative not understanding the issue at hand.

Everything you need to know about the trillion dollar coin

K · Post by K » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:10 pm

Yes, Republicans don't understand how money works. They released an image that was supposed to be funny based on their flawed understanding of how fiat money works.

So the joke is on them, and they are the one's who made it.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:39 pm

K wrote:Yes, Republicans don't understand how money works.

This right here explains so much about American politics in one simple sentence.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:20 pm

OK. So the brilliance of that image is that Republicans are [still] retarded.

Can I admit that there are times when I just cannot believe that people are that stupid? It's like some surreal joke.

Shatner · Post by **Shatner** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:46 pm

RobbyPants wrote:Everything you need to know about the trillion dollar coin

That's a really good article. Thanks for posting it, RobbyPants. I'll have to keep that in my back pocket in case I need to email some info to someone who's confused on the issue.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:05 pm

Maj wrote:Can I admit that there are times when I just cannot believe that people are that stupid? It's like some surreal joke.

I have times like that too.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:16 am

Maj wrote:OK. So the brilliance of that image is that Republicans are [still] retarded.

Can I admit that there are times when I just cannot believe that people are that stupid? It's like some surreal joke.

Pretty much. I was hoping it was just some person trolling, or maybe just some random guy who doesn't know stuff about things. Sadly, K said it was made by the National Republican Congressional Committee...

Shatner wrote:
RobbyPants wrote:Everything you need to know about the trillion dollar coin
That's a really good article. Thanks for posting it, RobbyPants. I'll have to keep that in my back pocket in case I need to email some info to someone who's confused on the issue.

No problem. It was the best explanation I've seen in one sitting. It was especially nice after I listened to the three guys on the morning show I listen to sound like dumbasses trying to discuss it in a humor format.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:33 pm

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013 ... fpnewsfeed

John Stewart... I am disappoint.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:34 pm

Jon Stewart wrote:“We need a way to get the world to take the U.S. dollar seriously again.”

They don't now? What world is he living in?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:50 am

Well, ~10 years ago the US dollar was worth close to two Australian dollars, and was reasonably close to the Great British Poundington Stirling, Upon Which the Sun Never Goes Down Without First Asking (to use the correct first name). I mean, sure, twenty years ago there were games made by British people that had 1 GP = 10 SP = 100 CP = 10,000 GREATER AMERICAN DOLLARS, but that's England for you.

These days, USD to AUD is just about 1-for-1. Your currency doesn't simply crush everyone else beneath it. But it's not like the world stopped using it or anything, it's still "the most important currency".

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:18 am

Similarly about 8 years ago 1 Canadian dollar was worth about 65 US cents. We've been at parity for a few years now, but we haven't gone over it.

I know both the Liberal and Conservatives want the CDN dollar to go down in value, it's better for our trade but it hasn't really budged. I wonder what combination this is of QEs 1-3, trade balance and general economic strength.

K · Post by K » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:30 pm

It was a transitional line to set up the bit about the Treasury nominee. Don't overthink it.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:53 pm

Juton wrote:Similarly about 8 years ago 1 Canadian dollar was worth about 65 US cents. We've been at parity for a few years now, but we haven't gone over it.

Actually, it was higher than the dollar for a bit around 2008.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:45 pm

So, it sounds like Obama wants to take the 14th Amendment option and platinum coin option off the table in favor of simply refusing to let the house Republicans hold the economy hostage. Can this work? It seems like they'll just end up playing chicken again like they did in 2011.

I'm not even sure what his best option is at this point.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:57 pm

Yeah, it currently looks like we're playing chicken again. Which led to the downgrade in the US credit rating last time, and that was even after a deal had been inked, voted on, and signed - the very fact that the politicians responsible could not get their shit together until the very last fucking minutes caused assholes across the world to clench in fear.

The thing is, any of the clever options is just pushing the confrontation further out - platinum coins will not work forever, the debt ceiling needs to be nixxed. The problem is, you cannot deal with the Republicans on their own terms - that the Republicans are even trying this shit again shows how far over the deep end they are. So if you force a confrontation, it's anybody's guess over who will cave first, and whether they'll cave fast enough to get anything done, and what the consequences will be. Because you have a lot of Tea Party types that will gladly play Dr. Strangelove and ride the fucking bomb all the way down, screaming "'Merica!"

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:21 pm

Yeah, right now Obama is at least pretending that he does not believe that the 14th Amendment option or the Platinum Coin option or the Presidential Scrip option are legal. All three of them are plainly legal, so claiming that they aren't is a rhetorical strategy. This indicates that he is either setting up the "Money in the Treasury" provision, where he simply chooses what bills to pay and not pay and thus gets a line-item veto out of the deal; or he is simply betting that a line in the sand rhetoric will force the Republicans to cave. Or of course, he could be planning on selling out the American people for a mess of pottage, I don't know.

But the thing where Obama claims he won't use the coins is simply a rhetorical stance. Legally, he could totally do that.

As for John Stewart and the economy: he doesn't understand the deficit. Hell, John Stewart doesn't understand a lot of things about the government. Have you noticed how he's been spending the last several years harping on leftists that they have to "admit" that government needs to be more efficient, when it's already running with half the waste of the private sector?

John Stewart is very funny and very insightful a lot of the time. But there are a lot of things he just doesn't fucking get. And the federal budget and its affects on the economy as a whole is certainly one of them.

-Username17

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:51 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Yeah, right now Obama is at least pretending that he does not believe that the 14th Amendment option or the Platinum Coin option or the Presidential Scrip option are legal. All three of them are plainly legal, so claiming that they aren't is a rhetorical strategy.

What is the Presidential Scrip option? This is the first I can remember reading about it.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:01 pm

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/0 ... n-coupons/

The President generally can't just print up a bunch of money. But he could conceivably tell the Treasury to print up a bunch of IOUs, and if people accept them then no worries. They would probably work like California's registered warrants.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:02 pm

RobbyPants wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Yeah, right now Obama is at least pretending that he does not believe that the 14th Amendment option or the Platinum Coin option or the Presidential Scrip option are legal. All three of them are plainly legal, so claiming that they aren't is a rhetorical strategy.
What is the Presidential Scrip option? This is the first I can remember reading about it.

That is where the Treasury Department cuts a deal with some amount of the creditors of the United States Government where instead of giving them dollars from the treasury, they get IOUs that say "The President promises to give you X amount of dollars as soon as Congress gets its act together and puts money in the treasury again". They aren't debt, so they don't count against the debt limit, and they aren't money, so they don't count against congressional printing limits. But if people accept them voluntarily, then the government isn't defaulting on any of its obligations and the debt ceiling crisis could theoretically be extended indefinitely without default.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:23 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:That is where the Treasury Department cuts a deal with some amount of the creditors of the United States Government where instead of giving them dollars from the treasury, they get IOUs that say "The President promises to give you X amount of dollars as soon as Congress gets its act together and puts money in the treasury again".

Is the Treasury authorized to sweeten the deal of IOUs with bounties or interest payments? If this is allowed then it's actually a really clever way to do stimulus -- but since it's also obviously a form of non-Congressional debt, I can see the judiciary readily cockblocking anything but a zero-interest IOU.

My greatest hope is that the US government realizes that when all is said and done the country is monetarily sovereign. I'm not particularly attached to the platinum coin, but I DO want the politicians and punditry to stop frickin' acting like the country is on the gold standard.