Ten Levels

[Schleiermacher]

Well, I suppose I have to cop to that, but I do maintain that you can have room for quite a lot more than the bland drek 4e admits and still have a fairly balanced game with diverse character types.

Not "extremely ridiculous shenanigans", though.

[Username17]

Well, I suppose I have to cop to that, but I do maintain that you can have room for quite a lot more than the bland drek 4e admits and still have a fairly balanced game with diverse character types.

Not "extremely ridiculous shenanigans", though.

You can allow people to do a lot more cool shit than 4e allows people to do and still be doing the 4e solution. 4e characters are really impressively shitty. It's still a pretty shit plan all around, and you shouldn't do it.

By cutting off the game before the mundane characters stop being able to compete, all you've really accomplished is to kick the can down the road into ensuring that if you ever try to write rules for higher level characters that you are totally proper fucked and you're stuck with the AD&D Epic paradigm where wizards become Avangions and fighters get 3 extra hit points. Sooner or later you will have to give phlebtonium to the fucking sword carriers and if you put it off until after the level cap you're just pooping out a giant turd all over your ability to ever extend the level cap for no actual gain.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

Okay people, like, here is the thing about the 4e solution that makes it the most terrible solution ever.

You can have a zoo that has Mammals, or you can have a zoo that has literally every animal under the sun.

Having a zoo with only mammals has literally nothing that the other zoo does not.

Extending level 3 over a 20 level span adds literally nothing to the game. The 4e solution is to remove half the game for no reason.

[Foxwarrior]

Kaelik: That argument would be even more perfect for explaining why a kitchen sink setting is strictly better than a setting that's limited enough to be comprehensible and coherent.

Maybe you are, in fact, making a zoo for mammalophiles, and none of them enjoy the hour it takes to pass all the insects, fungi, sponges, plankton, and flying fish, only to find that the mammal section is diluted with lizards, birds, and sharks.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik: That argument would be even more perfect for explaining why a kitchen sink setting is strictly better than a setting that's limited enough to be comprehensible and coherent.

Maybe you are, in fact, making a zoo for mammalophiles, and none of them enjoy the hour it takes to pass all the insects, fungi, sponges, plankton, and flying fish, only to find that the mammal section is diluted with lizards, birds, and sharks.

Neither of those makes sense. It is a worse argument for kitchen sink, because the existence of Psions has an effect on all characters. However, the ability to play at level 15 doesn't really effect your ability to play at level 5.

If you only care about mammals, then play at level 1-10, and stop trying to take away the rest of the fucking game from other people.

Yes, not all games need to include high level stuff. Snakes and Ladders does not need to accommodate higher level stuff. But team stupid fucking mundane is advocating for the removal of high level from all possible fantasy games, because every time someone says, how can we make a game where high level works, they whine "but then I can't be a fighter, so you should just delete half the game, because if I can't play a fighter in every game then I will murder you."

[Foxwarrior]

The existence or nonexistence of level 15 characters has an effect on level 5 characters. That effect may be pretty minor, just like the existence of psions when you're not in psion country, but it still does something. Given the number of discussions the den has had about how to make it so level 15 NPCs don't solve the level 5 PCs' quest, you should be aware of this already.

[OgreBattle]

Okay people, like, here is the thing about the 4e solution that makes it the most terrible solution ever.

You can have a zoo that has Mammals, or you can have a zoo that has literally every animal under the sun.

Having a zoo with only mammals has literally nothing that the other zoo does not.

Extending level 3 over a 20 level span adds literally nothing to the game. The 4e solution is to remove half the game for no reason.

How about the Shadowrun Solution?

A Shadowrun magic user is never going to infinite wishloop, scry n' die, or time-stop summon angel horde. A Shadowrun 'Mundane' Guy can totally solve many problems with "I waste it with my bullets!" (advancement by cybernetics is roughly equivalent to magic gear) Even the Aristocrat can pull his weight.



Does that make Shadowrun a worse game than D&D? Will Shadowrun be improved by making casters eventually gain demonic armies that make the street samurai useless?

[Kaelik]

Does that make Shadowrun a worse game than D&D? Will Shadowrun be improved by making casters eventually gain demonic armies that make the street samurai useless?

No, it means Shadowrun has less conceptual space than D&D.

And since Shadowrun exists already, the existence of Shadowrun is a really bad argument for why every other game needs to remove any possible prospect of high level so you can have your fighters.

The existence or nonexistence of level 15 characters has an effect on level 5 characters. That effect may be pretty minor, just like the existence of psions when you're not in psion country, but it still does something. Given the number of discussions the den has had about how to make it so level 15 NPCs don't solve the level 5 PCs' quest, you should be aware of this already.

That works come in at the design stage, but once it is done, the players can just ignore the existence of level 15 completely.

[Wrathzog]

Okay, that's what everyone is calling "the 4e solution", where you cap phlebotinum-enabled characters and make your entire game "low-level".

Bringing up 4E in this discussion is a slippery slope fallacy and you're not doing anyone any favors by bringing it up.

By cutting off the game before the mundane characters stop being able to compete, all you've really accomplished is to kick the can down the road into ensuring that if you ever try to write rules for higher level characters that you are totally proper fucked and you're stuck with the AD&D Epic paradigm where wizards become Avangions and fighters get 3 extra hit points.

Actually, that is... as close to ideal as we're going to get. I didn't even take Epic rules into consideration when we were talking about this (I don't really consider it part of D&D... or as a playable system) and if you want to cut classes out of the game, then that is the place to do it.

-e-
Preemptive response: No, you fucking didn't. Reason? Presentation.

[Username17]

How about the Shadowrun Solution?

In Shadowrun, Mages are uncapped and Street Samurai are capped. If a Mage plays enough sessions, they will eventually become powerful enough to summon a Bloodzilla that can credibly threaten the Eastern Seaboard. A Street Samurai will never ever be able to fight off a Stonewall Main Battle Tank, no matter what skills or implants or weaponry he gets.

To the extent that Shadowrun presents a "solution" at all, it is simply that reaching the point where the discrepancies between what an Awakened character is capable of and what a non-awakened character is capable of takes a long time. It's the ultimate in can-kicking. And it's not a solution to the problem. It's putting off the problem by slowing advancement to the point that you hope the game will outright end before the problem becomes obvious.

-Username17

[Foxwarrior]

So Shadowrun doesn't do the sane thing with its magic system either.

The attributes of a magical character that improve when they level up can be chosen arbitrarily by the creators. In a stealthy heist game setting like Shadowrun, there's no reason that a mage should increase in sheer firepower as he gains skill; the mana arrays, leylines, and summoning circles necessary to summon a Bloodzilla don't need to be any smaller and cheaper than the factories necessary to build a Mechagodzilla.

Mistborn, Eragon, Dresden Files, and Wheel of Time all let their mages upgrade their sheer firepower only through outside assistance. I'm almost tempted to say that getting better, not stronger, is the more common paradigm in (novel-based) fantasy worlds; oh, FMA and A:TLA too.

The opposite choice: stronger, not better, could make for some interesting conflicts between casters and noncasters, if done properly. The problem is that you can't really have spells like invisibility or create complex creature or object in this system at all, but mages that can only throw flames and objects, rip massive holes in reality, and so on would certainly not make precise, observant, stealthy musclemen irrelevant.

It's just that stronger and better is too much when an ordinary person can't get any stronger than 200 pounds of muscle or better than perfect.

Edit: Before you point out that Mistborn, Eragon, Dresden Files, Wheel of Time, and FMA all have casters that noncasters can't possibly compete with, I'd like to point out that that's just a choice as to how much raw power casters get.

[Whatever]

The opposite choice: stronger, not better, could make for some interesting conflicts between casters and noncasters, if done properly.

They did that in Slayers, and Gourry was still a joke.

[Koumei]

Nah, in the mango Gourry ended up being able to compete...

...by learning to cast spells

[Xaos]

Well...regardless of how if Fighters go pass ten, I can think of one GTFO ability which comes up



Flying counters:


Clip wings. (It doesn't matter how strong the central body is...tell me how strong its wings are. Do you really need to destroy the wing entirely to render it useless, or just...hit the right tendon?)

Stun (Flap flap flap flap fla-BONK! Whistling souuuuunnnd....CRASH!)

Flight (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em....in the air!)

"COM'MERE!" (Harpoon or lasso the flier, then pull them in. Alternatively, climb up to them and pull a Shadow of the Colossus. Wild rides and being bashed against the rocks may be an occupational hazard of this sort of anti-flying tactic.)

Dragoon Jump (Sort of in between flight and "COM'MERE!", this option is to simply leap like a flea unto the flying creature.)


Alternatively, consider limiting the power of flight itself:

Maximum altitude limit. (A pretty good one for any flying race. I came up with an idea to do a tiny fairy-like flying race RIGHT but saying that the fairies usually just hover up to the height of a man's head above the ground, with some ability to "Levitate" as the spell or "Feather fall" in a general direction from the apex of your height. So, fairy-flight in this model is powered by a reverse-gravitional pull that can only be maintained at the right distance from the ground... However, for big and heavy flying creatures, they could simply run out of breath after so many dive-bombs. The Dragons in Skyrim sure seem to run out of breath a lot. You'd think they would consider retreat when the fight against the SOUL-DEVOURING Dovahkiin wasn't going so well...)

Maximum range. (this is like the altitude, but it takes into account that when something is so far away that an archer on the ground can't get an accurate shot on it...odds are that it goes both ways. Still, this limitation does NOTHING for the fact that fliers can retreat whenever they want to...)

Sudden stop. (I heard some earlier versions of the flight spell had an extremely random duration, so that the wizard would end up falling to his death. Now this was, and still is, a dick move for the wizard, but it did create another concern to invalidate abusing the ability to fly too much.)


Cramped spaces. (This one is kind of worthless. Dragons should never fight in their own lairs simply out of concern of melting their own treasure hoard. Other flying creatures are usually either small enough to fit in a cave or dungeon...or they will simply live on top of the mountain as opposed to under it.)

[Xaos]

Well...regardless of how if Fighters go pass ten, I can think of one GTFO ability which comes up that generally screws fighters.

Flying. Specifically, flying + ranged. The Spoony One devoted an entire Counter Monkey episode to describing how dragons can abuse this:

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/09/11/ ... le-strafe/

There are of course, ranged attacks the guys on the ground can use, but often times one guy with a bow simply doesn't have enough damage output to keep the dragon from either ignoring him while he kills the people actually capable of flight...or beat the dragon's breath weapon in a damage-off if the dragon focus fires on him.

Actually, the rogue is hurt worse than the fighter because you can't flank a flying opponent to gain sneak attack! A lot of "mundane" classes -and even the cleric with all those touch ranged spells!- are roundly fucked just from the stupid flying. Dragons are an extreme example, but pretty much any swarm of sturdy fliers with a source of healing could hit-and-run the party until they either drop the healer or force the PCs to retreat in sheer frustration.

So...any melee weapon user who aspires to be a dragon slayer one day (funny how they are always depicted as armored knights, when all a knight would do is roast in his own armor) simply needs, at some level or another, to stop being impressed by the whole flying thing.

Flying counters:


Clip wings. (It doesn't matter how strong the central body is...tell me how strong its wings are. Do you really need to destroy the wing entirely to render it useless, or just...hit the right tendon?)

Stun (Flap flap flap flap fla-BONK! Whistling souuuuunnnd....CRASH!)

Flight (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em....in the air!)

"COM'MERE!" (Harpoon or lasso the flier, then pull them in. Alternatively, climb up to them and pull a Shadow of the Colossus. Wild rides and being bashed against the rocks may be an occupational hazard of this sort of anti-flying tactic.)

Dragoon Jump (Sort of in between flight and "COM'MERE!", this option is to simply leap like a flea unto the flying creature.)

Dragonrend Shout (I still can't believe I ever killed any of those scaly bastards in Skyrim without this gem. But think about it. "Forces dragons to land?" THAT'S IT? The Dragonrend shout was talked up as this holy grail of shouts, so important that supposedly the Dragonborn cannot defeat Alduin without it. The ability to force dragons to land.)


Alternatively, consider limiting the power of flight itself:

Maximum altitude limit. (A pretty good one for any flying race. I came up with an idea to do a tiny fairy-like flying 4e race RIGHT but saying that the fairies usually just hover up to the height of a man's head above the ground, with some ability to "Levitate" as the spell or "Feather fall" in a general direction from the apex of your height. 4e arguments make me create weird things... However, for big and heavy flying creatures, limiting their flight makes sense as they could simply run out of breath after so many dive-bombs.)

Maximum range. (this is like the altitude, but it takes into account that when something is so far away that an archer on the ground can't get an accurate shot on it...odds are that it goes both ways. Still, this limitation does NOTHING for the fact that fliers can retreat whenever they want to...)

Sudden stop. (I heard some earlier versions of the flight spell had an extremely random duration, so that the wizard would end up falling to his death. Now this was, and still is, a dick move for the wizard, but it did create another concern to invalidate abusing the ability to fly too much.)


Cramped spaces. (This one is kind of worthless. Dragons should never fight in their own lairs simply out of concern of melting their own treasure hoard. Other flying creatures are usually either small enough to fit in a cave or dungeon...or they will simply live on top of the mountain as opposed to under it.)

[Username17]

Fighters, at least if they aren't shitty 4e Fighters, can and should have bows. So ideally they shouldn't be helpless against flying archers. If fighters are helpless against flying archers, then something is deeply wrong.

But Flying Incoporeal Archers is another story. Because D&D often faps to requiring magical arrows in such a scenario, and magical arrows are by definition a limited commodity.

-Username17