Making less-terrible Cthulhutech-esque RPG

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Post by Username17 »

kzt wrote: Without the Nazi example as to where eugenics leads eugenics might well have continued as a major movement in the US.

However, I'm still not sure that making the "good guys" excessively bizarre is a good idea.
Yeah. The whole concept that genetic diversity was the strength of a species, while totally present in Charles Darwin's original works, was very much regarded as crazy talk by most learned people of the 20s and 30s. Heck, the idea was so radical that Hitler banned Origin of Species for espousing such a heretical dogma. It is unfair to judge people from that era too harshly for holding ideas that we know now are equal parts wicked and wrong. But the ideas themselves are still wicked and wrong, and repeating them today is still creepy and vile.

As for the good guys being excessively bizarre, I don't think that's a problem. When "Goat Spawn" is a playable character, the idea that people should stick up for goat spawn rights is pretty easy to get across. I mean, how many people seriously considered joining up with the Humanis Policlub in Shadowrun?

Consider FarScape. The ship is all bio-goo, but this doesn't really bother anyone. It's the point of view, so it remains part of the "in group" and no one has a problem identifying with the characters. As long as we give people options where they still look like handsome and sexy humans, the sky scrapers can look like FarScape bioships and that will be fine.

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Post by Fuchs »

Shadowrun had only Humanis painted as evil racists, the metahuman hate groups and especially the Tirs didn't get the same "outcast by every decent people, enemies you should hate" treatment. I ended up making Humanis as a lobby group for humans, on par with troll, ork, dwarf and elf right groups, and reserved the "here, fodder for red justice" titles to all the terrorist groups like Sons of Sauron and Alamos 20K.

As far as who might want to join Humanis - anyone with an irish background has ample reason to join Humanis. Anyone escaped from Tir Tairngire - again, ample reason. Anyone beaten by an ork gang as a kid. In the hate-filled dystopia, plenty people have reasons to join the cycle of violence.

Frankly, when I am asked by the core book to play a career criminal willing to blow up innocent people for monetary gain I don't really see how joining a racist policlub on top of that would be a big deal, morally.
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Post by Whipstitch »

It doesn't make you extra guilty of previous unrelated crimes but it still makes you a worse person for having the trait. Beyond that, games of Shadowrun tend not to last very long once characters are divested of their favored coping mechanisms given that most shadowrun characters tend to either be caricature sociopaths or tight lipped mercenaries who cope by disassociating themselves from their actions. The former category manages because such groups tend to keep the fact that it's just a silly game up front and center at all times--vile stuff may come up, but it's treated with all the forthrightness of a dead baby joke. The latter group works because you may have to do bad things but at least you don't have to make an argument for doing such things beyond muttering "Someone was going to get paid for that hit, may as well be me." Ultimately, Team Pink Mohawk and Team Mirrorshades both choose to dodge whatever question it is you bring to bear. Team Race War by definition has at least one really bad answer and that can be enough to make the game less fun for everyone.
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Post by Username17 »

I'm not saying that the Humanis were objectively any worse than the Tir Tairngire folks, or that they were even objectively worse than run of the mill Shadowrunners. I'm saying that their basic position of being against normal player character options automatically made them a "them" rather than an "us". Similarly, the various kingdoms with anti-Wizard policies in various D&D settings are instantly and unanimously identified as "the enemy" by all the players - even the players who aren't actually playing arcane spellcasters at the moment.

The act of writing "you could play a goat spawn" down in the chargen lists automatically makes all the anti-goat spawn groups into out-groups. Because you've already had the players consider being a goat spawn and thereby consider things from the goat spawn perspective.

I mean, you can use weighted words as well. The Lemurians can have their stuff referred to as "sterile" rather than "clean", the lines on their buildings can be "invariable" rather than "smooth", and so on. Writing something so that it is cast in a negative light is not terribly difficult.

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Post by Fuchs »

Whipstitch wrote:Ultimately, Team Pink Mohawk and Team Mirrorshades both choose to dodge whatever question it is you bring to bear. Team Race War by definition has at least one really bad answer and that can be enough to make the game less fun for everyone.
There's a big, big difference between someone who doesn't like metahumans, and someone who wants to start a race war. Humanis is not Alamos 20K.
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Post by Fuchs »

FrankTrollman wrote:I'm not saying that the Humanis were objectively any worse than the Tir Tairngire folks, or that they were even objectively worse than run of the mill Shadowrunners. I'm saying that their basic position of being against normal player character options automatically made them a "them" rather than an "us". Similarly, the various kingdoms with anti-Wizard policies in various D&D settings are instantly and unanimously identified as "the enemy" by all the players - even the players who aren't actually playing arcane spellcasters at the moment.

The act of writing "you could play a goat spawn" down in the chargen lists automatically makes all the anti-goat spawn groups into out-groups. Because you've already had the players consider being a goat spawn and thereby consider things from the goat spawn perspective.

I mean, you can use weighted words as well. The Lemurians can have their stuff referred to as "sterile" rather than "clean", the lines on their buildings can be "invariable" rather than "smooth", and so on. Writing something so that it is cast in a negative light is not terribly difficult.

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Hating other races is a normal player option too.

Also, not every player identifies anti-wizard kingdoms as the enemy. Matter of fact, my group started out fighting such a kingdom, then switched sides.

And honestly, just because the game presents goat spawn or fishmen as character options doesn't mean everyone actually considers playing that. It certainly doesn't mean everyone automatically thinks that's a good idea.

Shadowrun allows people to play mass murderers. That doesn't mean a group automatically thinks that's ok, or should be ok.
Last edited by Fuchs on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Grek »

I don't know what to say to that Fuchs. If it's in the Player Races and Player Classes sections, people will sympathize with it. That's just how it works.
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Post by Whipstitch »

Also, we're talking about parts of Shadowrun that are way problematic and for the most part limit the IP's appeal.
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Post by hyzmarca »

FrankTrollman wrote: Whenever you try to play Lovecraft's racial impurity stuff straight, it feels extremely wrong. It feels extremely wrong because it actually is amazingly wrong. Getting upset because of Goat Spawn genetic contamination is a horrible thing to do, because in the original work it is literally and specifically a stand-in for concern that people around you might interbreed with Jews, Negroes, or Chinamen. Those books are written from the perspective of the actual bad guys of the time, because HP Lovecraft was actually one of the bad guys of his day.

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In fairness to Lovecraft, he only thought that colored people were racially inferior, not Jews. He merely felt that Jewish culture was "profoundly alien and emotionally repulsive" (exact words). But he had no problem with Jews who gave up their religion and their traditions and acted like good Anglo-Saxon Protestants.


Yeah, somehow that actually makes it worse.


As for the racial diversity issue, I imagine that most of it will consist of little things, like Burger King serving putrified and maggot-ridden uncooked human flesh as an alternative to flame-broiled all-beef patties, because the Ghoul market is sufficiently large that a fast food franchise can profit from catering to it.

This, I imagine, would be annoying to most people in the event that they got your order mixed up, but no more so than them putting Mayo on it when you explicitly told them not to.

If High School is going to be a major setting, then of course the weird goes hand-in-hand with the familiar. The Cafeteria serves many flavors of Soylent Green because Ghoul students have special dietary needs, but this is literally no different than the Cafeteria food that we're all use to. Even to the human student, that extremely ripe human hand is probably no less appetizing than the mystery meatloaf or the reheated pizza.
And the Ghoul students are likely to complain about hot the Cafeteria can't even get rotting human flesh right, it's not like it's easy to screw up that recipe.

Presumably they get the soylent green from tissue farms and no real person has to be hurt in the process so it's not even morally questionable, just potentially yucky.
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Post by kzt »

Really? You think so? Consider the reaction of Burger King to finding that one of their suppliers once accidentally shipped some horse meat mixed into a beef shipment. Just try to find a restaurant serving horse meat burgers.

It's like having a private k-6 school that also sells sex toys and bondage gear in the lobby to the public. It might be legal, but neither set of customers are going to feel very comfortable and I'd tend to expect legal repercussions.
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Post by Grek »

I don't think there's any particular reason why Ghouls should have to subsist human flesh, story-wise or biologically. Rotting flesh, maybe. And maybe religious cannibalism and a biological requirement to eat limited amounts of human flesh for proper development/reproduction. But as a major protein source, no, that's totally unreasonable. There's not enough humans for Ghouls to each have to eat even a pound of human meat daily and sustain a reasonable population by robbing graves in the Pre-Moon War period.
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Post by Username17 »

Grek wrote:I don't think there's any particular reason why Ghouls should have to subsist human flesh, story-wise or biologically. Rotting flesh, maybe. And maybe religious cannibalism and a biological requirement to eat limited amounts of human flesh for proper development/reproduction. But as a major protein source, no, that's totally unreasonable. There's not enough humans for Ghouls to each have to eat even a pound of human meat daily and sustain a reasonable population by robbing graves in the Pre-Moon War period.
This. Ghouls can be carrion eaters. They can really like human flesh. They can even have a dietary requirement for small amounts of human flesh are irregular intervals. But they can't need to get their calories from human flesh, because humans don't actually die that often and are much smaller than cows. Shadowrun's 1% per week was already crazy high, and only semi-workable. It can't go any higher than that.

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Post by Fuchs »

Racial diversity and tolerance usually stops at "and they eat humans".

From a sanitary point of view, only insane people would allow serving rotten meat next to meat for human consumption.

It's all nice and well that we know that Lovecraft was a racist asshole, but that doesn't mean we need to turn the whole game into "happy bizarro world". We're not talking Star Trek Utopia here - we're talking about some apocalyptic world. There's nothing wrong with making human prejudice a theme and make all non-humans, even allies, suffering from it to some degree, with the PCs being able to do something about.
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Post by Username17 »

Fuchs wrote:Racial diversity and tolerance usually stops at "and they eat humans".
Not in RPGs. In World of Darkness, the vampire hunting organizations are the bad guys. Not because they aren't right, but because vampires are "us" and by definition the hunters are "them". Hell, in World of Darkness, the people whose job it is to keep dragons and lunatics from changing the laws of physics so that electricity doesn't work and water doesn't come out of taps are the fucking bad guys. The "in group" and "out group" distinction is so very extremely strong that it overwhelms virtually any considerations of right and wrong.

I mean, we could show you studies about how Israeli children correctly identify Joshua's genocides as a crime against conscience when the names are removed and rally to his defense in mass when he is described as being specifically a Jew. Or any of a dozen other similar studies conducted all over the world. But just think back to how many people actually failed to sympathize with the player character groups in games like World of Darkness. Once a group is "us" rather than "them", they can get away with an awful lot. And eating humans isn't even close to the limit.

That being said, I would suggest that the Ghouls be presented as relatively likable. And that means that they should probably have a craving for human flesh, but not actually have a requirement for it. People who crave human flesh and usually don't eat people are sympathetic. Just see: Vampire protagonists. This is an interesting difference from the bridge builder/sheep fucker distinction, but it seems to hold pretty well.

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Post by Fuchs »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Fuchs wrote:Racial diversity and tolerance usually stops at "and they eat humans".
Not in RPGs. In World of Darkness, the vampire hunting organizations are the bad guys. Not because they aren't right, but because vampires are "us" and by definition the hunters are "them". Hell, in World of Darkness, the people whose job it is to keep dragons and lunatics from changing the laws of physics so that electricity doesn't work and water doesn't come out of taps are the fucking bad guys. The "in group" and "out group" distinction is so very extremely strong that it overwhelms virtually any considerations of right and wrong.

I mean, we could show you studies about how Israeli children correctly identify Joshua's genocides as a crime against conscience when the names are removed and rally to his defense in mass when he is described as being specifically a Jew. Or any of a dozen other similar studies conducted all over the world. But just think back to how many people actually failed to sympathize with the player character groups in games like World of Darkness. Once a group is "us" rather than "them", they can get away with an awful lot. And eating humans isn't even close to the limit.

That being said, I would suggest that the Ghouls be presented as relatively likable. And that means that they should probably have a craving for human flesh, but not actually have a requirement for it. People who crave human flesh and usually don't eat people are sympathetic. Just see: Vampire protagonists. This is an interesting difference from the bridge builder/sheep fucker distinction, but it seems to hold pretty well.

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I disagree. In WoD, we play bad guys. Vampires are not "us", they are roles we play, and we know that we play monsters. At least sane people know the difference between them and their characters. It's different from thinking about some religious figure presented as an ancestor of our people or such.

Vampire protagonists are sympathetic because they are pretty. If they were rotting zombies they would not be considered sympathetic.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Fuchs wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:
Fuchs wrote:Racial diversity and tolerance usually stops at "and they eat humans".
Not in RPGs. In World of Darkness, the vampire hunting organizations are the bad guys. Not because they aren't right, but because vampires are "us" and by definition the hunters are "them". Hell, in World of Darkness, the people whose job it is to keep dragons and lunatics from changing the laws of physics so that electricity doesn't work and water doesn't come out of taps are the fucking bad guys. The "in group" and "out group" distinction is so very extremely strong that it overwhelms virtually any considerations of right and wrong.

I mean, we could show you studies about how Israeli children correctly identify Joshua's genocides as a crime against conscience when the names are removed and rally to his defense in mass when he is described as being specifically a Jew. Or any of a dozen other similar studies conducted all over the world. But just think back to how many people actually failed to sympathize with the player character groups in games like World of Darkness. Once a group is "us" rather than "them", they can get away with an awful lot. And eating humans isn't even close to the limit.

That being said, I would suggest that the Ghouls be presented as relatively likable. And that means that they should probably have a craving for human flesh, but not actually have a requirement for it. People who crave human flesh and usually don't eat people are sympathetic. Just see: Vampire protagonists. This is an interesting difference from the bridge builder/sheep fucker distinction, but it seems to hold pretty well.

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I disagree. In WoD, we play bad guys. Vampires are not "us", they are roles we play, and we know that we play monsters. At least sane people know the difference between them and their characters. It's different from thinking about some religious figure presented as an ancestor of our people or such.

Vampire protagonists are sympathetic because they are pretty. If they were rotting zombies they would not be considered sympathetic.
Ahem.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/38611461/Zomb ... l-Rulebook

Also, Nosferatu.

Vampires are power fantasies, angst fantasies, and rape fantasies thrown into one creature. They serve to allow the player to be one of three things, to be strong and kick ass without consequences, to be special and misunderstood, or to be symbolically ravished by the fangs of a more powerful vampire. Being ugly just cranks up the angst factor.


That being said, eating already dead people is not a bar to sympathy or likability. See Alive for the most obvious example. As it is with many taboos, necessary cannibalism is excused. It's gratuitous cannibalism that people don't like. Vampires get a pass for drinking human blood because they have a magical medical condition and need to do it. Thus, the only relevant question remains how they obtain it. Since there are many ethically permissible ways to of obtaining blood, good vampires are quite easy to do.
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Post by Whatever »

There is a Zombie Romance Movie in theaters right now. Fuchs can eat all the dicks.
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Post by Fuchs »

Whatever wrote:There is a Zombie Romance Movie in theaters right now. Fuchs can eat all the dicks.
And a single movie is proof that the mainstream considers zombies sexy and tragic like Twilight vampires?

Yes, there are romance novels where a full-bodied female is the lead - but when you ask people for images of sexy women, being thin is almost a 100% condition to make the list.

Rotting zombies are not sexy for the vast majority of people. And I honestly doubt - haven't seen this movie - that the zombie there is of the decomposing variety.

Check fantasy romance books - were-whatevers and vamps galore, but rotting zombies? Not so much, to say the least.

Yes, some people out there will find a decomposing but still sentient and ambulatory corpse attractive. A bit more might it find it sympathetic. But it's not mainstream like Vampires and Werewolves are because it's not sexy.

And to get back to the point: What does making the game's world an utopia with regards to non-human rights actually add to it? What creates more plot hooks and drama and feels more immersive, a world where the vast majority of humans doesn't really like nonhumans, even allies, or a world where humans are perfect role models for tolerance, equality and acceptance, a few decades after we still had issues with electing a POTUS with mixed ancestry?

Are we talking about making a game, or a political statement? If the latter, shouldn't we change the system to not use violence as a problem solver, but make people use diplomacy to turn enemies into friends as the main stick?

I don't buy this. It would need a lot more exposition to explain why humanity suddenly stopped being a bunch of racists, or speciest, or whatever the term is for disliking non-humans.
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Post by Username17 »

Fuchs wrote:And to get back to the point: What does making the game's world an utopia with regards to non-human rights actually add to it?
That you can play a Deep One mission director or a Goat Spawn police detective. If there are Jim Crow laws in place for Oni, then that limits character classes your Oni character is allowed to have and adventures that your Oni character is allowed to participate in.

Racism has to be relatively rare and not spoken about in polite company (like racism against Black people today), because otherwise it shits on peoples' character concept if they want to play a non-human who does social stuff. So for example, in America today, 86% of people approve of marriage between Blacks and Whites. And that level of racism is totally OK to have in a game.

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It doesn't have to be everyone singing together in harmony. But racism against Deep Ones has to be socially unacceptable.

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Post by hyzmarca »

Fuchs wrote: And to get back to the point: What does making the game's world an utopia with regards to non-human rights actually add to it? What creates more plot hooks and drama and feels more immerse, a world where the vast majority of humans doesn't really like nonhumans, even allies, or a world where humans are perfect role models for tolerance, equality and acceptance, a few decades after we still had issues with electing a POTUS with mixed ancestry?
I think you're missing the point. The game world is not a utopia with regards to non-human rights. The Union is not a single monolithic entity. It's an a motley and eclectic mix of various nations that somehow survived a 15-year-long nuclear war. Some of those nations are totalitarian dictatorships. Some of them are racist heck-holes. But even the most racist Zones aren't herding non-humans into gas chambers. At the end of the day, the worst of the Union's racist Zones is more Jim Crow South than Nazi Germany and they at least try to get along, even if that comes in the form of ghettoizing the non-humans and trying to ignore them.

So in Nantucket you've seriously got conservative human fishermen complaining about Deep Ones "taking our jobs" in much the same way a Conservative Texan might complain about Mexican immigrants.

Inter-species relations in the Union is, at best, equivalent to race relations in modern America and Europe. At it's very worse it's equivalent to race relations in 1980s South Africa, and that's terrible indeed. But even the most racist A-holes recognize the contributions that non-humans have made and are making to the defense of Earth and aren't going to rock that boat. The Union government isn't strong enough to enforce global civil rights legislation, though it may want to, and the really racist zones are hapy enough being left alone to enforce their own laws. At the end of the day, no one wants to start a civil war over whether or not fish-men can vote, not when they've got real threats breathing down their necks.

Indeed, the secession of Valusia is just a symptom of the Union's Weakness as a central government. It shouldn't have been possible for the Cult of Yig to gain that much traction in Mexico, which is still mostly Catholic. However, many Mexican Zones were taken over by drug cartels and dictatorial strongmen during the Earth-Moon War. The Union could not and would not attempt to restore democracy to those Zones, as doing so would make all the other ascended criminals and dictatorial strongmen nervous. A century of dictatorial mismanagement can produce a lot of dissatisfaction and Toth Amon was able to take advantage of that, cementing a surprisingly large amount of Catholic support for a theocratic dictator dedicated to the worship of a serpent. He toppled unpopular dictators and aristocrats, installed himself in their place, and used a lot of nationalistic rhetoric to justify a military push into the still-democratic Mexican states. That only succeeded because Cthulhu went on a week long bender in the general vicinity of Brazil and the Union had to move a fuckton of forces into South America to contain him, leaving Mexico and Central America open to attack from within.

And they couldn't contest Toth Amon's control over Valusia after Cthulhu went back to sleep because that would have meant opening up another front and stretching their already thin forces to the breaking point. And besides, he was being surprisingly reasonable about it and actually gave tham more concessions than the Union would would have gotten from the Mexican Zones if he hadn't conquered them.

All in all, the Union is a weak government and many of its members are tinpot dictatorships on the level of North Korea. You can find places where fishmen can't vote or drive cars. Heck, you can still find places where women can't vote or drive cars. Racism is not uncommon.
But the Union at least tries to be accepting and inclusive, and most Zones recognize equal rights for all.

If we have a high-school setting then it will most likely be one run by the Union government explicitly for it's teenage super-soldiers and thus will be run according to the standard of the Union rather than those of any one Zone. But the people will be from a variety of Zones, because super-powers don't care where you come from, and will thus have a variety of attitudes.

Lemuria, by contrast, is a monoculture that does march non-humans into gas chambers as a matter of policy.
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Post by Fuchs »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Fuchs wrote:And to get back to the point: What does making the game's world an utopia with regards to non-human rights actually add to it?
That you can play a Deep One mission director or a Goat Spawn police detective. If there are Jim Crow laws in place for Oni, then that limits character classes your Oni character is allowed to have and adventures that your Oni character is allowed to participate in.

Racism has to be relatively rare and not spoken about in polite company (like racism against Black people today), because otherwise it shits on peoples' character concept if they want to play a non-human who does social stuff. So for example, in America today, 86% of people approve of marriage between Blacks and Whites. And that level of racism is totally OK to have in a game.

Image

It doesn't have to be everyone singing together in harmony. But racism against Deep Ones has to be socially unacceptable.

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I don't even expect Jim Crow level of racism. But I simply don't buy humanity as a rule thinking that Deep Ones are just fine and dandy as daughter in laws and that a ghoul dining on human remains is ok in a fine restaurant. That's more stark trek than Mythos.

I'd expect ghettos, and normal people ignoring non-humans - at least the ugly ones.

As long as the racism is not crippling and more a background element, Goatspawn detectives work fine - I'd expect a number of the players selecting that wanting to deal with racism in game, wanting to play the "freak".
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Post by Fuchs »

hyzmarca wrote: I think you're missing the point. The game world is not a utopia with regards to non-human rights. The Union is not a single monolithic entity. It's an a motley and eclectic mix of various nations that somehow survived a 15-year-long nuclear war. Some of those nations are totalitarian dictatorships. Some of them are racist heck-holes. But even the most racist Zones aren't herding non-humans into gas chambers. At the end of the day, the worst of the Union's racist Zones is more Jim Crow South than Nazi Germany and they at least try to get along, even if that comes in the form of ghettoizing the non-humans and trying to ignore them.

If we have a high-school setting then it will most likely be one run by the Union government explicitly for it's teenage super-soldiers and thus will be run according to the standard of the Union rather than those of any one Zone. But the people will be from a variety of Zones, because super-powers don't care where you come from, and will thus have a variety of attitudes.
That sounds more like what I'd expect.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Another thing to consider, the entire generation of people who grew up in the 1970s and early 1980s literally knew nothing but war in their childhood. If you were born in 1969 then you were 15 years old the first time you actually experienced peace. And if you were a kid who grew up in that time period the first time you knew that it might be possible that you wouldn't be horribly killed by moon-monsters is when you saw footage of Operation Moonhammer, specifically footage of Dagon in a giant armored space-suit wielding a 155mm assault rifle loaded with W48 72 ton tactical nuclear shells.

That sight, in addition to being a pretty awesome visual even without context, is what told an entire generation of youngsters that the war might actually end and they might actually survive it.

And that happened 124 years ago. Most of the humans who were born before this event are dead. Those members of that generational demographic who are still alive are only still alive because they had Deep One immortality genes spliced into their DNA as soon as the technology became available.

Literally, the only people alive who can remember a time when Dagon wasn't the Hero of the Union are Deep Ones, hybrids, and transgenics.
The only people alive who can remember a time before the Earth-Moon War are Deep Ones and Hybrids, and possibly a tiny handful of really old transgenic first-adopters depending on when we put that tech on the timeline.

Most of the characters in this setting will have grown up learning about Operation Moonhammer in history class and through tragic action-romance movies and popular video game franchises.

Also, Y'ha-nthlei's involvement in the Earth-Moon War basically parallels America's involvement in World War II. They started out highly isolationist and almost irrelevant to the surface world, took one really tiny hit, got extremely pissed off, and came out of it a global super power.
Remember, Y'ha-nthlei controls nearly half of the world's oceans. In terms of sheer surface area, they're bigger than all of the surface nations combined. It's also really fucking hard to hit targets that are on the bottom of the ocean, so they came out almost entirely unscathed. They are a superpower and one of the three major power blocs in the Union, along with the remains of the former NATO and the former Warsaw Pact. They're also much more unified than the other two power blocs, because they didn't have their government decapitated in 1970. Other than the Rlyeh schism, they've maintained continuity of government for nearly a million years.

Modern Y'ha-nthlei has huge pressure domes to accommodate air-breathers and massive factories. It is the safest place on the planet for people to live and the safest place for important manufacturing because Ryleh is the only major antagonist faction capable of sustained underwater warfare and they have been understandably reluctant to risk bringing Dagon down on their heads when the stars aren't yet right. The guy doesn't want to kill his own children, but he does have limits and the Ryleh faction rightly fears him.

As a result, there are tens of millions of air-breathing humans living down there under Y'ha-nthlei's flag, and nearly as many amphibious transgenics in addition to over a billion Deep Ones and hybrids. It's also one of the largest producers of high-quality manufactured goods on the planet.

Being a Deep One traveling abroad in 2097 is really a lot like being an American traveling abroad in RL 1997. Y'ha-nthlei is an economic and military superpower and open trade has led to a great deal of cultural exchange. Of course, there are also Deep One immigrants and native-born hybrids on the surface and they've been living openly amongst humans for 170 years. The fact that many hybrids retained loyalty to their native countries was the largest contributing factor to the Schism in the first place, and why so many of Y'ha-nthlei's citizens joined the Allies in WWII. But I'm getting off track.

My point is that Y'ha-nthlei is extremely rich, it's extremely safe, it's considered a land of opportunity, and it's citizens are afforded a decent amount of respect worldwide.


Deep Ones aren't really blacks who are fish people. They're more like Americans who are also fish people, right down to nuking the fuck out of a defeated but stubborn enemy. Y'ha-nthlei is the most powerful and least assailable nation on the planet, essentially by accident of size and location.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
kzt
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Post by kzt »

No, objects on the bottom of the ocean are crazy vulnerable to weapons like nukes and KE weapons. Water is wonderfully effective at transmitting shockwaves. We went over this with Frank. And if you have an underwater high-tech city it's perfectly detectable, the thermal systems used to track boomers at 1000 feet will spot a 500 megawatt heat source at 25,000 feet with sufficient accuracy when you are using 20 megaton nukes or 50km/sec KE weapons and don't really worry about the ecological side-effects. It's also pretty damn hard for a site at the bottom of the ocean to provide effective ABM coverage of itself, or even stop guys using overgrown magical rowboats from rolling really big depth charges into the water.
Username17
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Post by Username17 »

kzt wrote:No, objects on the bottom of the ocean are crazy vulnerable to weapons like nukes and KE weapons. Water is wonderfully effective at transmitting shockwaves.
And it's incredibly awesome at absorbing heat, light, and shrapnel. The shockwave is an incredibly minor part of most explosives and their damaging capacity. Water is great at transmitting concussion grenade force, but it also reduces pretty much any explosive weapon to a glorified concussion grenade. Nuclear depth bombs really aren't that impressive, and every country in the world has abandoned their use.

-Username17
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