110 point font, one word per page for the whole story.
More seriously, the PHB does the same sort of thing only with large art taking up most of each chapter opening. Maybe not for every chapter, but I think for the 3 otherworld chapters there should be a landscape image of what a scene might look like.
After Sundown tweaks/house rules
Moderator: Moderators
Would it be really terrible to put monsters before societies? I think a lot of people care more about "What races can I play" than "What nations and clubs can my character be a member of?" or rather, look for races before nations/clubs.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
A thin rundown of the supernatural creatures would be fine in the Terrible Places chapter. But obviously you wouldn't put the full writeups with power lists and stuff before the introduction to groups.Prak_Anima wrote:Would it be really terrible to put monsters before societies? I think a lot of people care more about "What races can I play" than "What nations and clubs can my character be a member of?" or rather, look for races before nations/clubs.
Unfortunately, the information has to be given twice. First as overview, and then more in depth after that.
-Username17
Oh, certainly. D&D can get away with saying "here are all the stats of elves right up front" but most games would only want to say "here are a few sentences about the things you can play."
The overview could even be part of the realm write ups, conceivably, something like
Limbo: The Dark Reflection
[blurb]
The monsters of Hell
The overview could even be part of the realm write ups, conceivably, something like
Limbo: The Dark Reflection
[blurb]
The monsters of Hell
- Daevas (vampire)- [blurb]
- Nezumi (lycanthrope)- [blurb]
- Frankensteins (animate)- [blurb]
- Baali (Witch)- [blurb]
- Fallen (Transhuman)- [blurb]
- Mi Go (Leviathan)- [blurb]
- Fey (Non-playable)- [blurb] (unless they got moved to Maya)
- Demon (Non-Playable)- [blurb]
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Incidentally, I just finished a slightly-over-500 page word flash fiction. I'm sure it's terrible, but it's an image/characters I was thinking about, from some of what I said a coupla pages ago. It's there, if a place for it comes up.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
I'm fairly positive that the "Monsters of Limbo" section would be actual monsters of limbo, not just every Infernal creature type.Prak_Anima wrote:The overview could even be part of the realm write ups, conceivably, something like
The monsters have been sorted into "playable" and "non-playable", with the Playables getting their own chapter sooner in the book.
I've got an unpolished ~4k word Reborn Solomon Kane, but it's a part of a prospective larger series of short stories with him going around killing supernatural monsters and growing into those shoes.
Incidentally there's good source material for Solomon Kane having been a Reborn African warrior.
It would be a good project for me to make more, shorter stories of the same fare tho. I don't know how that would fit in to the RPG however.
I give a thumbs-up to Frank's layout unless someone with a superior mind for layouts comes up with better.
Incidentally there's good source material for Solomon Kane having been a Reborn African warrior.
It would be a good project for me to make more, shorter stories of the same fare tho. I don't know how that would fit in to the RPG however.
I give a thumbs-up to Frank's layout unless someone with a superior mind for layouts comes up with better.
Ok, what about world write ups having "(adjective) power" and "monsters of (world)" sections which give a short blurb about playable types tied to that world (and what it means) and non-playable types from that world.
Another thought- each world has two sets of non-playables, some of which don't actively come from their worlds but rather are the result of otherworldly energies tainting ours. What if each world just had "these are what all inhabit and come from this world" and "this is what happens when this world's energies touch the mundane" so you have orphic ghosts/zombies (because I think the idea that ghosts actually inhabit an adjacent but separate world has enough play), astral giant animals and fae/evil plants, and infernal demons/???. Even with this setup you have zombies wandering the gloom, it just requires bodies left there, and evil plants sitting around Maya, because they are definitionally what happens when Mayan energy touches plants.
Another thought- each world has two sets of non-playables, some of which don't actively come from their worlds but rather are the result of otherworldly energies tainting ours. What if each world just had "these are what all inhabit and come from this world" and "this is what happens when this world's energies touch the mundane" so you have orphic ghosts/zombies (because I think the idea that ghosts actually inhabit an adjacent but separate world has enough play), astral giant animals and fae/evil plants, and infernal demons/???. Even with this setup you have zombies wandering the gloom, it just requires bodies left there, and evil plants sitting around Maya, because they are definitionally what happens when Mayan energy touches plants.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Prak, why would you do that?
I mean, creatures that happen to have Infernal as their power source aren't from Limbo, so they don't go in the "Monsters of Limbo" section. It's just that simple. Each playable monster is already getting a short summary in the Intro chapter, and a long description in the Playable Monsters chapter. They don't need a third description. Players will just get upset that they're having to flip around so much to read all the material on the monster types.
And the only monsters that don't come from the world they're associated with are undead, and they can just have their undead fluff changed a bit such that they do come from Mictlan. For example, when a ghost is created, it can default to existing in the Shallow Gloom at the location it died.
I mean, creatures that happen to have Infernal as their power source aren't from Limbo, so they don't go in the "Monsters of Limbo" section. It's just that simple. Each playable monster is already getting a short summary in the Intro chapter, and a long description in the Playable Monsters chapter. They don't need a third description. Players will just get upset that they're having to flip around so much to read all the material on the monster types.
And the only monsters that don't come from the world they're associated with are undead, and they can just have their undead fluff changed a bit such that they do come from Mictlan. For example, when a ghost is created, it can default to existing in the Shallow Gloom at the location it died.
Last edited by Lokathor on Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I wasn't thinking three descriptions, I was thinking of putting the short descriptions with the worlds their power comes from, rather than putting a separate monster section in Intro.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
I was going from Frank's reply to my question:
FrankTrollman wrote:A thin rundown of the supernatural creatures would be fine in the Terrible Places chapter. But obviously you wouldn't put the full writeups with power lists and stuff before the introduction to groups.Prak_Anima wrote:Would it be really terrible to put monsters before societies? I think a lot of people care more about "What races can I play" than "What nations and clubs can my character be a member of?" or rather, look for races before nations/clubs.
Unfortunately, the information has to be given twice. First as overview, and then more in depth after that.
-Username17
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
-
Judging__Eagle
- Prince
- Posts: 4671
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada
I guess that I should explain my overall direction in my own remixing of After Sundown.
First all attempts are made to maintain the spirit of AS' attempt to rigidly structure existing human mythology; not to create new bullshit paradigms because "it's possible".
Secondly, all attempts are to be made to categorize all biological taxonomic categories of Life (Biota) into the existing AS creature categories. Right now, the only real unstructured parts are things like Fungi (Pods?); and microscopic life (could go either into Transmortals and/or Witches?).
Third; where human history and mythology doesn't correlate with After Sundown; After Sundown will have to be modified to some degree.
The end result is that I've done a wide range of compression of content in some areas, as well as much larger expansions to many areas, and peeling away certain elements to place in other categories.
A rough outline on the playable types;
The non-playable types I don't see any reason to shift or re-organize
Rats eat and destroy corpses. They're also universally recognized as spreaders of plague, and death. The term "plague rat" shouldn't be lost (and I don't advocate Nezumi losing Abyss of the Body; however I do feel that Abyss of the Body makes a better fit as an Orphic power, over an Infernal power).
The association between Infernal powers and Felines goes as far back as pre 10,000 BCE with Indus valley Palashkas/Raksashas being described as demons of the fiery hells. The term Hellcat has certain imagery connotations; in general felinoids that are wreathed in flames.
The fact that I kept being confronted with other people's art work and sculptures using that imagery is what made me continue making that switch by mistake, and continue making it. Art work representing Bagheera as Orphic/skeletal creatures is much more scant than represnting them as Infernal/fiery creatures.
I only realized my mistake some time in August when having people make some characters; and decided that the existing human traction, art and mythology trumps a previous decision. For the most part, I'm reluctant to make any changes to After Sundown, and have avoided doing so wherever and whenever possible; and don't like changing any part of it. However, my research proved that the human association of these mono-myths works other than is suggested in the 1e AS book.
If the main project continues using that association; that's fine. Differing from it is part and parcel with my notions of taking After Sundown as a basis for my own game development project. I merely want to inform others that someone has reluctantly realized that ratification of content could be done in places to make the work as a whole more cohesive and coherent. As well as work in better accord with existing human mono-myths.
That you think that Cats being "solitary killers" is a valid reason for them to not have the penultimate power to play cat-and-mouse with their prey shows that even in your attempts to argue against this position you're apologizing for; you're actually giving evidence that Hellcats and Death Rats make more sense than Death Cats and Hell Rats.
There's also the fact that almost all of the large cats used as Bagheera-Ocelotol/Hellcats are native to the warmer regions of Earth. Lions don't come from the lands of ghosts and zombies; they come from the sometimes drought stricken savannahs. Jaguars and Panthers are found mostly in tropical regions, as are Tigers.
Only a very few exceptions such as Cougars/Pumas/Mountain Lions exist in more temperate climates (but also exist in tropical ones); Snow Leaopards; and possibly Lynxes. However I don't think that three categories would somehow prove that the large cats that Bagheera are presented as are not for the most part from warm, tropical, climates.
[*]Power source isn't being debated. My reference to rodents being associated with the moon is in relation to Mictlan having a quantum-state Moon. In South America, the Moon has a Rabbit in it; in Dune, the local moon is the Kangaroo Rat. This was just a side-association that corroborates this change; not the fundamental reason for this change in the first place. That Bastet is the Sun, and the Eye of Horus, in certain parts of Egyptian Mythology doesn't hurt either.
[*]"Hellcat" has certain connotations. One doesn't think that a Hellcat would hunt zombies and ghosts; but more likely to hunt Demons or Fairies. Likewise "Death rat" or "Plague Rat" aren't terms I'm pulling out of my ass.
[*]"Ghostly" Hellcats is not being changed; D&D's Hellcats are both Infernal and "nearly invisible". That's purely aesthetics, and Bagheera/Ocelotol don't change anything. Bagheera's Warform is described as a translucent monster feline; changing that never has to happen. With my proposed change, they would now have the repeatedly iconic imagery of being shrouded in licking flames, as well.
Rodents that are nearly rotting, or have exposed cranial features have more traction than rodents that are inexplicably on fire or smouldering. Orphic Nezumi would look more as if they are partly decayed/skeletal in their anatomy, or even their facial features; covered in mouldering earth. Not "ghostly".
[*] Humans associate rats with bad things; that's nothing new. They also associate them with undermining the fabric of society (with disease), and undermining the literal fabrics of society with their claws and ceaselessly growing incisors. I'm leaning more towards a model where Kobalt-Gnomes can actually exist in Mictlan as burrowing rodents that are similar to more widely known creatures such as Skaven, Kobalts and Gnomes, where it makes sense; as opposed to Limbo, where very little says they should be there. Having Touch of Darkness allows these otherwise small and ineffectual looking creatures the ability to create Mount Nevermind, the Skaven Empires, as well as Gnomish and Kobalt underground societies.
Finally, the image you're linking doesn't support Nezumi being in Limbo in the slightest; and instead supports the argument that Swarms should be from Limbo. Feeding noisome creatures to people in the Inferno is more likely a pastime for Demons. Yesterday was human flesh, today is live rats, tomorrow will be earthworms.
I could seriously see an economic model where Demons buy the cheapest, or most horrible, foods to feed to the Fallen slaves that they manage; from goblin markets. Which results in things like, if you're lucky, on Fridays you'll be given some kitten stew, with the fur on. While your malicious liege taunts you into provoking a beating with statements like "I hope you realize how sumptuous your feast is mortal", while doling out stew with fluffy tufts sticking out of the top. Either way, the agony of starvation or eating horror foods fuels the Ifrits that oversee such operations.
Additionally; typical mummification practices involved exposure to sun and heat; and searing, or caustic chemicals; or salt. All more infernal than orphic in my opinion.
Changing my mind on this is going to require more than a few random blurbs that display a fundamental lack of knowledge on apology being attempted, or merely applied incorrectly. I made this "mistake" of confusing the two creatures and their power sources via the process of researching and archiving art references for my own After Sundown remix for over a year. Only in this just passed August did I realize that I had spent the last year getting 'wrong' the fact that Rats == Hell, and Cats == Death.
Much like with Hyenas being Bagheera and not Berserkers, or Troglodytes being Primates and not Moles, I realized that in this case, After Sundown doesn't corroborate with the rest of the stuff that's come up, or widely recycled and more tractioned memes on both types of creatures.[/url]
First all attempts are made to maintain the spirit of AS' attempt to rigidly structure existing human mythology; not to create new bullshit paradigms because "it's possible".
Secondly, all attempts are to be made to categorize all biological taxonomic categories of Life (Biota) into the existing AS creature categories. Right now, the only real unstructured parts are things like Fungi (Pods?); and microscopic life (could go either into Transmortals and/or Witches?).
Third; where human history and mythology doesn't correlate with After Sundown; After Sundown will have to be modified to some degree.
The end result is that I've done a wide range of compression of content in some areas, as well as much larger expansions to many areas, and peeling away certain elements to place in other categories.
A rough outline on the playable types;
Vampires:
Drakes - (Chiroptera, Bats; Eulipotyphla, Hedgehogs, Shrews, Moles; , Pholidota Pangolins) [Derived from Laurasiatheria ; Drakes being natural insectivores; hinges well with the fact that Mi Go are also Infernal)
Krakens - (Aquatic Inverebrates, but no arthropods (Mi Go); loses Mosquitos, Spiders, and other bloodsucking insects, but is massive as is)
Dragons - (Reptilae: Dinosaurs, Crocodiles, Lizards, Turtles, Birds; Based off of Dracula's name, and that he was classified as Strigoi in AS 1e)
Lycanthropes
Hellcats - (Felids, takes Hyenas from Get of Fenris, for taxonomic reasons)
Berserkers - (Canids (Dogs), Ursids (Bears), Pinnipeds (Seals)).
Kobalt-Gnomes - (Rodentia; from Rabbits to Guinea Pigs to Rats and Chinchillas)
Animates
Simulacra - (Machines that pass for non-Machines; A somewhat better term than Android; originally referring to clockwork driven figurines with porcelain features)
Golem-Robota - (Machines that look like Machines)
Frankensteins - (Cyborgs, Clones, Frankensteins)
Witches
Warlock - (Disloyal, blood-spilling, fire starters)
Priest-Doctor - (Ungulates: Minotaurs/Yagfolk/Tatanka; Ceteceans: i.e. whales; related to taxonomy, some precursor cetaceans were apparently hoofed predators; can still be totally Plant-like; see Pan's Labyrinth)
Liche - (Death worshiper, haunted, etc.)
Transmortals
Lost Souls - (People possessed/driven insane by presencepretense (...ugh, I probably misclicked the spellcheck option) of Infernal items, and/or escapees of Fairies/Demons; [Note: Possibly make this like Spawn, and call them Hellspawn?]; Changelings are the mirror goblins used to temporarily fool the parents, I don't mind Fallen, but it's not evocative enough of what happened to these characters)
Shaman - (People who took too much of a chemical or underwent a nearly lethal process; changed forever)
Reincarnated - (Those who were too awesome to be stopped by death; possibly creatures of other types who've been killed for more than a year & a day)
[I'm considering placing the three microbial life types of organisms into Transmortals and/or witches; potentially putting plant-like microscopic organisms be part of Dryads; and Ungulates/Ceteceans be Liches (since traditionally, the inspirations were/are people who wear dead body parts for ritual purposes)]
Lovecraftians
Mi Go - (Arthropods; all of them, grabs AS 1e Nosferatu's spiders/mosquitos; also includes crab and lobster people; Spiderman is now a Mi Go, and Spider Senses are innate)
Deep Ones - (Aquatic Vertebrates; including amphibians. Battle Toads, Weresharks, Mermaids and Fish-heads now share a type)
Troglodytes - (Primates; Troglodyte spawn look like nose-less simian proto-humans; or something; sloped foreheads, sunken sockets, thick brow ridges, thick claws, fang-like teeth)
Drakes - (Chiroptera, Bats; Eulipotyphla, Hedgehogs, Shrews, Moles; , Pholidota Pangolins) [Derived from Laurasiatheria ; Drakes being natural insectivores; hinges well with the fact that Mi Go are also Infernal)
Krakens - (Aquatic Inverebrates, but no arthropods (Mi Go); loses Mosquitos, Spiders, and other bloodsucking insects, but is massive as is)
Dragons - (Reptilae: Dinosaurs, Crocodiles, Lizards, Turtles, Birds; Based off of Dracula's name, and that he was classified as Strigoi in AS 1e)
Lycanthropes
Hellcats - (Felids, takes Hyenas from Get of Fenris, for taxonomic reasons)
Berserkers - (Canids (Dogs), Ursids (Bears), Pinnipeds (Seals)).
Kobalt-Gnomes - (Rodentia; from Rabbits to Guinea Pigs to Rats and Chinchillas)
Animates
Simulacra - (Machines that pass for non-Machines; A somewhat better term than Android; originally referring to clockwork driven figurines with porcelain features)
Golem-Robota - (Machines that look like Machines)
Frankensteins - (Cyborgs, Clones, Frankensteins)
Witches
Warlock - (Disloyal, blood-spilling, fire starters)
Priest-Doctor - (Ungulates: Minotaurs/Yagfolk/Tatanka; Ceteceans: i.e. whales; related to taxonomy, some precursor cetaceans were apparently hoofed predators; can still be totally Plant-like; see Pan's Labyrinth)
Liche - (Death worshiper, haunted, etc.)
Transmortals
Lost Souls - (People possessed/driven insane by presencepretense (...ugh, I probably misclicked the spellcheck option) of Infernal items, and/or escapees of Fairies/Demons; [Note: Possibly make this like Spawn, and call them Hellspawn?]; Changelings are the mirror goblins used to temporarily fool the parents, I don't mind Fallen, but it's not evocative enough of what happened to these characters)
Shaman - (People who took too much of a chemical or underwent a nearly lethal process; changed forever)
Reincarnated - (Those who were too awesome to be stopped by death; possibly creatures of other types who've been killed for more than a year & a day)
[I'm considering placing the three microbial life types of organisms into Transmortals and/or witches; potentially putting plant-like microscopic organisms be part of Dryads; and Ungulates/Ceteceans be Liches (since traditionally, the inspirations were/are people who wear dead body parts for ritual purposes)]
Lovecraftians
Mi Go - (Arthropods; all of them, grabs AS 1e Nosferatu's spiders/mosquitos; also includes crab and lobster people; Spiderman is now a Mi Go, and Spider Senses are innate)
Deep Ones - (Aquatic Vertebrates; including amphibians. Battle Toads, Weresharks, Mermaids and Fish-heads now share a type)
Troglodytes - (Primates; Troglodyte spawn look like nose-less simian proto-humans; or something; sloped foreheads, sunken sockets, thick brow ridges, thick claws, fang-like teeth)
Fairies
-Goblin-Dwarves (Ewok, Lorax, Alf, Dharas/Dwarves, Goblin/Gremlin, Isz, Pac-Man; I'm favoring a furry orange-ish pac-man goblin, over other imagery)
-Spriggan-Elves (Eldar, Elf/Alfar, "Alien(s)" Xenomorphs, Spriggans, Link)
-Trolls (Oni, Ogre, Pyramid-Head, Jotun, Nifel Giants, Muspel Giants, Giants)
Demons
-Imps (Asuras, Yazatas, Valkyries, Angels, Bhyakees, Nightgaunts)
-Akuma (Balrog, Cthulhu, Balors, "Attack on Titan" Titans)
-Devils (Nyarlathotep, Lilith, Lucifer, Mephisto)
Evil Plants
-Trap-Jaws (Aubrey, Piranha Plants, Assassin Vines)
-Triffid-Shoggoths (Ents, Orcworts, Murder-trees)
-Pods (Elder Things? Myconids, Mind Mushrooms)
Giant Animals
-Swarms (Ants, Locusts, Bees, Rats, Spiders, Birds)
-Behemoths (Jaws, Mighty Joe Young, Anaconda, Lake Placid)
-Chimera (Unicorns, Griffons, Manticores, Basilisks)
-Kaiju (King Kong, Godzilla, Mothra, Evangelion/Angels)
Ghosts
-Will-o-wisp
-Poltergeist
-Wraith
Zombies
-Shamblers
-Spit-Runners
-Talkers
-Goblin-Dwarves (Ewok, Lorax, Alf, Dharas/Dwarves, Goblin/Gremlin, Isz, Pac-Man; I'm favoring a furry orange-ish pac-man goblin, over other imagery)
-Spriggan-Elves (Eldar, Elf/Alfar, "Alien(s)" Xenomorphs, Spriggans, Link)
-Trolls (Oni, Ogre, Pyramid-Head, Jotun, Nifel Giants, Muspel Giants, Giants)
Demons
-Imps (Asuras, Yazatas, Valkyries, Angels, Bhyakees, Nightgaunts)
-Akuma (Balrog, Cthulhu, Balors, "Attack on Titan" Titans)
-Devils (Nyarlathotep, Lilith, Lucifer, Mephisto)
Evil Plants
-Trap-Jaws (Aubrey, Piranha Plants, Assassin Vines)
-Triffid-Shoggoths (Ents, Orcworts, Murder-trees)
-Pods (Elder Things? Myconids, Mind Mushrooms)
Giant Animals
-Swarms (Ants, Locusts, Bees, Rats, Spiders, Birds)
-Behemoths (Jaws, Mighty Joe Young, Anaconda, Lake Placid)
-Chimera (Unicorns, Griffons, Manticores, Basilisks)
-Kaiju (King Kong, Godzilla, Mothra, Evangelion/Angels)
Ghosts
-Will-o-wisp
-Poltergeist
-Wraith
Zombies
-Shamblers
-Spit-Runners
-Talkers
It is as simple as that. After Sundown is meant to be an as accurate to human mythology and history as possible. Not "lulz whatevs kool" White Wolf bullshit with little rhyme, and less reason.CatharzGodfoot wrote:Rats are symbols of disease and decay; big cats are solitary killers. It's as simple as that.Judging__Eagle wrote:I might be the odd one one out on this; but I'd like to suggest switching Bagheera (or Ocelotol) and Nezumi (or Kobalt-Gnomes) in terms of their Power Source.
But since I like overkill...
[*]Both gain their energy from the moon regardless of their power sources. Moon rats are just as loony if they are Infernal.
[*]"Hell cat" is just a name. It applies equally well to felines from either underworld.
[*]Ghostly cats are cool. Ghostly rats are vaguely ridiculous.
[*]Rat: A despicable person, especially one who betrays or informs upon associates. Traitor, betrayer, deceiver, informer, defector, deserter, double-crosser, quisling, stool pigeon, two-timer "He was known as `The Rat', even before the bribes had come to light."; rogue, scoundrel, heel, shit, bastard, rotter, bad lot, shyster "What did you do with the gun you took from that little rat?". This is why nezumi get Learn the Heart's Pain.
Rats eat and destroy corpses. They're also universally recognized as spreaders of plague, and death. The term "plague rat" shouldn't be lost (and I don't advocate Nezumi losing Abyss of the Body; however I do feel that Abyss of the Body makes a better fit as an Orphic power, over an Infernal power).
The association between Infernal powers and Felines goes as far back as pre 10,000 BCE with Indus valley Palashkas/Raksashas being described as demons of the fiery hells. The term Hellcat has certain imagery connotations; in general felinoids that are wreathed in flames.
The fact that I kept being confronted with other people's art work and sculptures using that imagery is what made me continue making that switch by mistake, and continue making it. Art work representing Bagheera as Orphic/skeletal creatures is much more scant than represnting them as Infernal/fiery creatures.
I only realized my mistake some time in August when having people make some characters; and decided that the existing human traction, art and mythology trumps a previous decision. For the most part, I'm reluctant to make any changes to After Sundown, and have avoided doing so wherever and whenever possible; and don't like changing any part of it. However, my research proved that the human association of these mono-myths works other than is suggested in the 1e AS book.
If the main project continues using that association; that's fine. Differing from it is part and parcel with my notions of taking After Sundown as a basis for my own game development project. I merely want to inform others that someone has reluctantly realized that ratification of content could be done in places to make the work as a whole more cohesive and coherent. As well as work in better accord with existing human mono-myths.
That you think that Cats being "solitary killers" is a valid reason for them to not have the penultimate power to play cat-and-mouse with their prey shows that even in your attempts to argue against this position you're apologizing for; you're actually giving evidence that Hellcats and Death Rats make more sense than Death Cats and Hell Rats.
There's also the fact that almost all of the large cats used as Bagheera-Ocelotol/Hellcats are native to the warmer regions of Earth. Lions don't come from the lands of ghosts and zombies; they come from the sometimes drought stricken savannahs. Jaguars and Panthers are found mostly in tropical regions, as are Tigers.
Only a very few exceptions such as Cougars/Pumas/Mountain Lions exist in more temperate climates (but also exist in tropical ones); Snow Leaopards; and possibly Lynxes. However I don't think that three categories would somehow prove that the large cats that Bagheera are presented as are not for the most part from warm, tropical, climates.
[*]Power source isn't being debated. My reference to rodents being associated with the moon is in relation to Mictlan having a quantum-state Moon. In South America, the Moon has a Rabbit in it; in Dune, the local moon is the Kangaroo Rat. This was just a side-association that corroborates this change; not the fundamental reason for this change in the first place. That Bastet is the Sun, and the Eye of Horus, in certain parts of Egyptian Mythology doesn't hurt either.
[*]"Hellcat" has certain connotations. One doesn't think that a Hellcat would hunt zombies and ghosts; but more likely to hunt Demons or Fairies. Likewise "Death rat" or "Plague Rat" aren't terms I'm pulling out of my ass.
[*]"Ghostly" Hellcats is not being changed; D&D's Hellcats are both Infernal and "nearly invisible". That's purely aesthetics, and Bagheera/Ocelotol don't change anything. Bagheera's Warform is described as a translucent monster feline; changing that never has to happen. With my proposed change, they would now have the repeatedly iconic imagery of being shrouded in licking flames, as well.
Rodents that are nearly rotting, or have exposed cranial features have more traction than rodents that are inexplicably on fire or smouldering. Orphic Nezumi would look more as if they are partly decayed/skeletal in their anatomy, or even their facial features; covered in mouldering earth. Not "ghostly".
[*] Humans associate rats with bad things; that's nothing new. They also associate them with undermining the fabric of society (with disease), and undermining the literal fabrics of society with their claws and ceaselessly growing incisors. I'm leaning more towards a model where Kobalt-Gnomes can actually exist in Mictlan as burrowing rodents that are similar to more widely known creatures such as Skaven, Kobalts and Gnomes, where it makes sense; as opposed to Limbo, where very little says they should be there. Having Touch of Darkness allows these otherwise small and ineffectual looking creatures the ability to create Mount Nevermind, the Skaven Empires, as well as Gnomish and Kobalt underground societies.
Finally, the image you're linking doesn't support Nezumi being in Limbo in the slightest; and instead supports the argument that Swarms should be from Limbo. Feeding noisome creatures to people in the Inferno is more likely a pastime for Demons. Yesterday was human flesh, today is live rats, tomorrow will be earthworms.
I could seriously see an economic model where Demons buy the cheapest, or most horrible, foods to feed to the Fallen slaves that they manage; from goblin markets. Which results in things like, if you're lucky, on Fridays you'll be given some kitten stew, with the fur on. While your malicious liege taunts you into provoking a beating with statements like "I hope you realize how sumptuous your feast is mortal", while doling out stew with fluffy tufts sticking out of the top. Either way, the agony of starvation or eating horror foods fuels the Ifrits that oversee such operations.
Mummification of Felines implies that there are rodents that will need to be combated when crossing to the west bank of the Nile, and into the land of the dead. Cats were maintained as sacred in Egypt for their ability to catch and kill rodents which could catastrophically undermine the Egyptian grain stores. Mice and rats, when able to nest in a food supply experience literal population explosions; and combating them would have been a constant struggle for the ancient Egyptians. Since they believed that everything in life, was also in death, they would have naturally expected that they would have to bring cats to the land of the dead via mystic rituals implies that they are not native to Mictlan; and that rodents were expected to be on the West Bank.erik wrote: I too think cats and death are a much better fit than rats and death. Do rats have temples filled with 300,000 mummified corpses to be send to the land of the dead? Likewise rats and limbo a much better fit than cats and limbo. Sorry JE, I think yer out in the fields on this one.
Additionally; typical mummification practices involved exposure to sun and heat; and searing, or caustic chemicals; or salt. All more infernal than orphic in my opinion.
Changing my mind on this is going to require more than a few random blurbs that display a fundamental lack of knowledge on apology being attempted, or merely applied incorrectly. I made this "mistake" of confusing the two creatures and their power sources via the process of researching and archiving art references for my own After Sundown remix for over a year. Only in this just passed August did I realize that I had spent the last year getting 'wrong' the fact that Rats == Hell, and Cats == Death.
Much like with Hyenas being Bagheera and not Berserkers, or Troglodytes being Primates and not Moles, I realized that in this case, After Sundown doesn't corroborate with the rest of the stuff that's come up, or widely recycled and more tractioned memes on both types of creatures.[/url]
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The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
Right. JE is doing something weird and incoherent without explaining it. News at 11.
FrankTrollman wrote:I think Grek already won the thread and we should pack it in.
Chamomile wrote:Grek is a national treasure.
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Whipstitch
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When I hear the word "hellcat" what comes to mind is Zeros getting shot down over the West Pacific. That aside, I can see how someone could decide to go either way with rats 'n' cats, but I don't think what's been presented has been strong enough to convince me to bother upsetting the applecart. I say this mostly because in AS, Limbo and the Infernal power source is more about decay, artifice and the evils man has wrought rather than being ostentatiously satanic. It's post-apocalyptic sure, but the flavor is post-nuclear winter rather than post-Rapture, making it easily the most artificial and modern of the alternate worlds. It's the one most open to urban themes, and when it comes to mammals that represent decay right where we live, nothing tops rats.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
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Username17
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Real world mythology is specifically inconsistent, even contradictory. The Bible can't stop itself from repeatedly contradicting itself, and it's a single edited book. Oral mythologies, or mythologies that have multiple competing books, are even more so. Greek mythologies can't "decide" whether Okeanos is a god, a river, or a sea. It's not vague on that point or anything, different authors simply claim incompatible ideas.JE wrote:Third; where human history and mythology doesn't correlate with After Sundown; After Sundown will have to be modified to some degree.
Even modern mythologies have incompatible canons. How strong is Superman? What was Wolverine doing at any particular point in recent history you care to name? Does Wonderwoman have a mother? A father? How many clones are there of Peter Parker?
The fact is that real world mythologies are a series of stories told by different people in order to evoke different kinds of reactions. Sometimes a story is a power fantasy where the protagonist effortlessly mops the floor with bad guys. Sometimes it's a story of struggle and pain where the very same bad guys are too strong to confront directly.
Cooperative storytelling games require solid answers to questions like "how strong is this character?" and "what can this character's sorcery actually do?". And so it gives them. There are numbers and power lists and stuff. But real world mythologies don't even care about those consistencies. Even basic interactions aren't consistent in real world mythologies. If a vampire gets sunlight on them, what happens? I can show real world stories in the body of mythos where the answer is "Nothing", "The get physically weak", "They can't use some of their powers", "They get a modest sunburn and don't really like it", "They start burning and have to run to safety in the shadows", or "they explode, leaving nothing but a pile of dust". All of those are valid mythological answers.
Bottom line is that giving final say to "mythology" in a role playing game is a fucking horrible idea. The role playing game can give consistent answers and the mythology can't. The stories you've read almost certainly aren't the same as the stories I've read, and anything you change to be more like a story you've read is likely to make it less like a story I've read. And at the table this corresponds to you making things less like one of the players expects things to be in the name of doing something more similar to something that the player in question is pretty sure actually goes the other way. It's like getting real world physics into D&D, but even worse because any two sources you look up won't say the same things.
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DSMatticus
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I feel like this list is missing some recent addition to the world of vampiric literature. A glaringly obvious entry by a bright young woman with scintillating ideas on spinning vampires in a new light. A real diamond in the rough, polished to a dazzling shine...FrankTrollman wrote:I can show real world stories in the body of mythos where the answer is "Nothing", "The get physically weak", "They can't use some of their powers", "They get a modest sunburn and don't really like it", "They start burning and have to run to safety in the shadows", or "they explode, leaving nothing but a pile of dust". All of those are valid mythological answers.
I'm not aware of any actual mythological sources for vampires being ashed by sunlight, only a movie which was made to ripoff a popular novel after the film makers were refused the rights to the actual story.
Could be a hole in my knowledge, though.
Could be a hole in my knowledge, though.
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Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Sources after 1930 still count as part of vampire mythology. They form a rather large chunk of the relevant mythology.Prak_Anima wrote:I'm not aware of any actual mythological sources for vampires being ashed by sunlight, only a movie which was made to ripoff a popular novel after the film makers were refused the rights to the actual story.
Could be a hole in my knowledge, though.
Go back and look at the sources the current After Sundown text suggests on vampires. How many predate Nosferatu and how many postdate it?
Fair enough.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Whipstitch
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I honestly have no idea if Lokathor's post is for infernal cats or against. On the one hand, Kirara's power set is fire themed and when things get translated to English nekomata end up being described as cat demons. On the other, cats are mythologically associated with death in Japan and bakeneko and nekomata are often portrayed as shapeshifting and predatory necromancers.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
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Username17
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So in addition to writing a piece of flash fiction at the start of every chapter, I feel there should be some more examples. In that line, I also feel that the characters in the examples should be the characters in the flash fiction.
Does anyone have strong opinions about what the sample characters should be for this purpose? I'm going to use Barbara Stanwick the Werewolf. Probably one character from each of the other splats. So a sample Vampire, a sample Leviathan, a sample Animate, a sample Witch, and a sample Transhuman.
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Does anyone have strong opinions about what the sample characters should be for this purpose? I'm going to use Barbara Stanwick the Werewolf. Probably one character from each of the other splats. So a sample Vampire, a sample Leviathan, a sample Animate, a sample Witch, and a sample Transhuman.
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