Rehabbing WoD, but keeping it's spirit

[Josh_Kablack]

So, quick poll everyone. If you were going to reboot the WoD line but you could only pick five broad spheres/splats/thematic concepts which ones would you choose and why?

Vampire and Werewolf are the obvious answers. Everything else is an also- ran.

If we are going with actual WoD and I am attempting to generate sales, I think Mage is number 3, then it's a toss-up between Kindred of the East and Wraith followed by one of the takes on Hunters and beyond those people pretty much just make fun of the games and never played tham.. (but that assumes that non-WoD WW product is off the table)

If we are going with my own gothicpunk horror heartbreaker, I think the test is along the lines of "did you show up in Abbot and Costello Meet Frankenstein" ? Although I could be convinced that "Which Darkstalkers made it into the MvC series of games" ? is more relevant.

[momothefiddler]

Don't let people be in the position of having bought a $10 "new edition of Vampire", and then discovering all too late that they have to buy a $50 "mortals" book to actually play it. That's not a good kind of surprise.

I still think this is a very important point.

Shrink-wrap a copy of the "Mortals" book to the inside of the front cover of the "Vampire" book, and the "Werewolf" book, and...

My initial thought was "But then people who buy multiple splats will have extra core rulebooks!"

My next thought was "...Which they could then pass out to players so we're not all fighting over who gets to read the combat rules. Okay."

[Prak]

Well, I am of the opinion that every RPG book should have a one or two page run down of the system as it's first page or pages (and am amenable to it being the last pages). So a short booklet folded into the cover of each is along those lines.

[Night Goat]

So, quick poll everyone. If you were going to reboot the WoD line but you could only pick five broad spheres/splats/thematic concepts which ones would you choose and why?

Vampires. Vampires are cool, or they can be when done right. If there's one thing WoD can't do without, it's vampires.

Werewolves. Being a ridiculous combat monster is fun. I would make it less Captain Planet-y and get rid of the dogsex, but the core concept is solid.

Mages. Mages are awesome. Get rid of the logical inconsistencies of the setting, and either make the PC mages not the bad guys, or intentionally the bad guys.

Changelings. Actual changelings, like Frank said.

Wraiths. Wraith had a cool concept and setting, it just needed a playable game to go with it. Also, necromancy is cool, and mediums are a thing that should be in WoD. Players of other splats will want to interact with ghosts, and having a core book devoted to them will tell you what they are in the context of the setting, what they do, what their powers are, what they care about, etc.[/list][/list]

[Username17]

If we are going with my own gothicpunk horror heartbreaker, I think the test is along the lines of "did you show up in Abbot and Costello Meet Frankenstein" ? Although I could be convinced that "Which Darkstalkers made it into the MvC series of games" ? is more relevant.

The Abbot and Costello Meet Frankenstein test gives us:

• Vampires
• Prometheans
• Werewolves
• Transhumans

The Darkstalkers in MvC test gives us:

• Demons
• Vampires
• Werewolves
• Mummies
• Witches
• Hunters

The Monster Squad test gives us:

• Vampires
• Werewolves
• Leviathans
• Prometheans
• Mummies

The Munsters test gives us:

• Prometheans
• Vampires
• Werewolves
• Leviathans
• Wraiths
• Witches

It's a pretty tight grouping any way you slice it. If you announced that Transhumans like Mr. Hyde and the Invisible Man were kinds of Witches or Hunters, and that Mummies were kinds of Witches, you could get everything into eight splats:

• Vampire
• Werewolf
• Promethean
• Leviathan
• Witch
• Demon
• Hunter
• Wraith

I think you can (and therefore should) put the rules for ghosts (and zombies) into the rules for necromancy (which probably goes to vampires or witches), and not have them as a separate splat. There's not a whole lot of genre support for Fairies (Leprechaun, Pan's Labyrinth), but I could see it as an expansion splat.

-Username17

[violence in the media]

I think you can (and therefore should) put the rules for ghosts (and zombies) into the rules for necromancy (which probably goes to vampires or witches), and not have them as a separate splat. There's not a whole lot of genre support for Fairies (Leprechaun, Pan's Labyrinth), but I could see it as an expansion splat.

-Username17

Could you fold Fairies into Werewolf; or vice-versa and make Werewolves a type of Fairy? I mean, it could kind of tie into all the tree-huggy moon-spirit thing they had Werewolves doing. Or would that cause too much butthurt among tough-guy Werewolf fanboys?

[Username17]

I think you can (and therefore should) put the rules for ghosts (and zombies) into the rules for necromancy (which probably goes to vampires or witches), and not have them as a separate splat. There's not a whole lot of genre support for Fairies (Leprechaun, Pan's Labyrinth), but I could see it as an expansion splat.

-Username17

Could you fold Fairies into Werewolf; or vice-versa and make Werewolves a type of Fairy? I mean, it could kind of tie into all the tree-huggy moon-spirit thing they had Werewolves doing. Or would that cause too much butthurt among tough-guy Werewolf fanboys?

I don't think that would really work out. People are willing to accept Werewolves that are bred rather than infected. People are willing to accept Werewolves that are good or evil. People are willing to accept Werewolves that are part of the natural order or opposed to it. But Werewolves have to flip out and kill people with rage and claws. They have to do that, or people get deeply offended.

So you could do some sort of thing where social fairies turned into pretty pretty princesses, magic fairies turned into tinkerbelles, and combat fairies turned into giant wolf monsters. But... I think one of those things very clearly doesn't belong. You could have a rant about Cu Sidhe or something, but the fact that one of these things just doesn't belong seems self evident.

On the other hand, lots of people want to be weretigers, wererats, and werebears. There is also a considerable amount of support for wereboars, weresharks, and weregators. So putting up 3-7 subtypes for a combat shapeshifter splat is trivial.

-Username17

[BoxCrayonTales]

How the hell could you know what I'm doing in practice when I haven't had time or attention to fucking do anything in practice for three days!?

You're right, I forgot to make myself clear. I apologize. I'm basing my knowledge only on the premises you posted in the first few pages of the thread. The first vampire myth, the triat/animistic werewolves, and the avatar/hedge magic are almost unchanged. What do these have to do with the spirits of the games?

[Prak]

If we are going with my own gothicpunk horror heartbreaker, I think the test is along the lines of "did you show up in Abbot and Costello Meet Frankenstein" ? Although I could be convinced that "Which Darkstalkers made it into the MvC series of games" ? is more relevant.

The Abbot and Costello Meet Frankenstein test gives us:

• Vampires
• Prometheans
• Werewolves
• Transhumans

The Darkstalkers in MvC test gives us:

• Demons
• Vampires
• Werewolves
• Mummies
• Witches
• Hunters

The Monster Squad test gives us:

• Vampires
• Werewolves
• Leviathans
• Prometheans
• Mummies

The Munsters test gives us:

• Prometheans
• Vampires
• Werewolves
• Leviathans
• Wraiths
• Witches

It's a pretty tight grouping any way you slice it. If you announced that Transhumans like Mr. Hyde and the Invisible Man were kinds of Witches or Hunters, and that Mummies were kinds of Witches, you could get everything into eight splats:

• Vampire
• Werewolf
• Promethean
• Leviathan
• Witch
• Demon
• Hunter
• Wraith

I think you can (and therefore should) put the rules for ghosts (and zombies) into the rules for necromancy (which probably goes to vampires or witches), and not have them as a separate splat. There's not a whole lot of genre support for Fairies (Leprechaun, Pan's Labyrinth), but I could see it as an expansion splat.

-Username17

The Campy Cereal Mascot Test gives us:

• Vampire
• Promethian
• Ghost
• Mummy
• Werewolf

How the hell could you know what I'm doing in practice when I haven't had time or attention to fucking do anything in practice for three days!?

You're right, I forgot to make myself clear. I apologize. I'm basing my knowledge only on the premises you posted in the first few pages of the thread. The first vampire myth, the triat/animistic werewolves, and the avatar/hedge magic are almost unchanged. What do these have to do with the spirits of the games?

Yeah, when I get back to this project*, those are probably all ditched (with the possible exception of the mage stuff, if mages make it in).

I'm probably going to keep that stuff in the back of my mind for other projects, however.

*I've got a lot of these. I go back and work on stuff more, but always wind up with another idea and run with that for a bit. My problem is finishing shit.

[Josh_Kablack]

The Campy Cereal Mascot Test gives us:

Prak, that is the best idea you have ever had. Why are you futzing around with a WoD rehash when you could be writing a fan game with playable characters like these


http://howtodrawdat.com/wp-content/uplo ... echaun.png

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/886/ ... x-1972.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2508/4170 ... b42cab.jpg

http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp35 ... l-1984.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOptQ0Ye1NU

instead?

[hyzmarca]

The Campy Cereal Mascot Test gives us:

Prak, that is the best idea you have ever had. Why are you futzing around with a WoD rehash when you could be writing a fan game with playable characters like these


http://howtodrawdat.com/wp-content/uplo ... echaun.png

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/886/ ... x-1972.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2508/4170 ... b42cab.jpg

http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp35 ... l-1984.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOptQ0Ye1NU

instead?

Fae
Hunter
Slasher
Promethean
Hunter

You can probably fold Slasher into Hunter.

[Username17]

The Cereal Mascot concept is the first really good argument for keeping Fae in the mix. After all, you have Lucky Charms and their Leprechaun and you have Rice Krispies and their Elves.

So basically you have Fae, who like other monsters have cereal (that kids take from them), and then you have talking animals who want cereal (that kids either share or don't share). The Trix Rabbit is the same kind of creature as the Coa-Coa Puffs Cuckoo, the only difference is that the Trix Rabbit is dealing with kids cruelly preventing him from having cereal while the Cuckoo is dealing with kids cruelly tempting him with his chocolate addiction for the lulz.

So in a hypothetical Cocofang game, Snap and Pop are the same splat as Lucky and are just as playable as Frankenberry. Talking animals are things that exist, and they want cereal of course (or in some cases, Cheetohs), but they aren't playable characters in the same way that Yummy Mummies are.

-Username17

[Prak]

I was being a little flippant (while still alluding to what group of monsters are most recognized and accepted in the zeitgeist), but that actually sounds like an amazing game.

What about talking animals who have their own cereal and give it away? Like Toucan Sam and BuzzBee?

[Username17]

Toucan Sam and BuzzBee are both basically familiars. They are both really small and regularly get stymied by doors and windows. Toucan Sam weighs 680 grams (a pound and a half) and is smaller than the liter (or quart) of milk that is to be poured on his cereal. BuzzBee is even smaller. They can lead you to a nutricious and overly sweetened breakfast, but they aren't playable characters - they have in essence zero dots in strength.

The weird one is Sugar Bear. He's a fucking bear who wanders around singing Bing Crosby tunes and punching people right in the face if he doesn't approve of them eating Golden Crisp cereal. I could definitely see the argument of making him (and Tony the Tiger) into a playable "guardian animal" splat. But I think that they'd probably make more sense as like retainers or antagonists or something.

-Username17

[Night Goat]

Could Sugar Bear and Tony be a Gurahl and a Bastet?

[Prak]

Clearly, this needs to be a game. I'm not sure what the metaplot would be, though.

[Username17]

Making Sugar Bear and Tony the Tiger into shapeshifters and putting them in with the Fruit Brute Werewolf seems like a good way to thread the needle, yeah.

So in Cocofang you got your main splat (Vampire, Lycanthrope, Promethean, Ghost, Mummy, and Fae), and each of those has sub-splats (a Promethean can be a Robot or a Frankenstein, for example). And then you have a "power source" which comes from one of the following:

• Chocolate
• Berries
• Fruit*
• Honey
• Frosting*
• Cinnamon

*: In sugar cereal world, "fruity" is different from "berry" and "honey coating" is different from "sugar coating." I know that doesn't make any sense, but it's a genre conceit.

The main issue I see with this scheme is that I'm not sure I see room for Ghost and Mummy sub-splats. One possibility is to put Lucky, Pop, and Booberry together under "Spirits" and then put the Yummy Mummy together with King Vitamin under "Royalty." Then Lucky would be a Spirit (Elf) with a Frosting power source, Booberry would be a Spirit (Ghost) with a Berry power source, Strawberry Shortcake would be a Spirit (Elf) with a Berry power source, and the Sugar Chex Ghost would be a Spirit (Ghost) with a Frosting power source.

The main antagonists are I think soggy aliens.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

Yeah, I had forgotten that the Sogmaster was from another planet

[Prak]

I think one of the power sources should probably be Marshmallow.

[Username17]

I think one of the power sources should probably be Marshmallow.

Definitely not. Lucky Charms are Frosted and have marshmallows. Ghost Busters Cereal is Fruity and has marshmallows. Count Chocula is Chocolate and has marshmallows. And so on. Marshmallow bits are in all kinds of cereal, and any power source can have marshmallow stacked onto it.

I mean, you could call universally available powers "marshmallow" powers (or perhaps "marshmallow" and "grain" for two universal power lists if you wanted to have two), but marshmallow can't be something that you have instead of chocolate or berry power.

-Username17

[Prak]

Fair enough. Marshmallow is universal, that makes a certain amount of sense.

[ACOS]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Night Goat]

What began as a thread about fixing WoD became a thread about making an RPG based on cereal mascots. I love this site.

[Prak]

Ok, so back on topic-

Thinking about Werewolf, it both occurred to me why I missed the point of it, and that there's a bit of a problem, I think.

I missed the point because when I played... we raged all the fucking time. "Oh, we're in combat? 'Scuse me while I burn through a few rage points running up to the spirit and stabbing it in the face a few times with my claws" We used our rage so much that we had to find ways to farm it. So there wasn't really a lot of focus on running the razor's edge of building rage.

This raises the issue of... is it theme-breaking to have Rage be an asset? If the game is all about "When will you rage?" then shouldn't raging actually be a bad thing (or at least a mixed bag), rather than pure "spend this to do better in combat?"

It seems like Rage shouldn't be something you spend in this model, but rather something that you accumulate and have to find a way to vent. Something that builds in combat, not drains. I suppose you could say that you gain rage whenever you take damage* and can only spend a single point each round or something.

*I don't know all the ways you're supposed to be able to gain rage, my desktop is being a lazy sod and not turning on again.

[Username17]

Rage made you flip out and kill your friends and family members during downtime. Rage was a severely double edged sword, where having more of it made you more bad ass in combat, but also made having a life more difficult. Some campaigns basically ignored peoples' lives outside of hairy superhero scenarios, and having more rage was always good. Some campaigns split focus between crinos and homid forms, and in those you wanted a balance of rage. No one ever played a campaign of Werewolf that was human life focused, but if you did, rage would be a bad thing.

Not a terrible setup actually. Even the auspices, where some give you more rage and others give you less, weren't terrible from a game design standpoint. You could do it better, of course, but it was one of the few parts of Werewolf that honestly worked pretty much as advertised.

-Username17