Pathfinder Is Still Bad

souran · Post by **souran** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:45 pm

If you gave experience for crafting or non-adventuring work then you could almost make the system work.

However, it seems to me that mostly what you would do is create a system that somebody would milk for experience instead of for wealth which isn't really any better.

and while a lot of people wouuld love to see the wealth = powre stuff die a horrible death I don't think its going to happen. Wealth = power is more real to most people than concepts like level = power or experience = power.

The more rpgs I have played the clearer it is to me that for the most part the rules have to stack things against the pcs or the pcs will run all over them.

If that leads to rulesets where npcs who use the crafting rules to make weapons and armor or run kingdoms or whatnot would fail/mess up/starve then the reasoning behind why society doesn't collapse should be "the npcs don't actually roll fucking skill checks when the players are not around, the world functions by logic + dm fiat and only the players operate on dice rolls.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:48 pm

There are plenty of systems where wealth != power. There are games where virtually infinite wealth is a a cheap ability and a minor detail you never care about.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:59 pm

Usually storyteller type systems, or point buy systems where wealth can only buy useless stuff ... because if it's actually good you still need to spend the points any way.

souran · Post by **souran** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:13 pm

further those systems almost never let you craft or make anything either

(except at level up time when you might say that you got your new magic sword by making it yourself but what you really did was spend character points on it.)

anyway, I didn't think I needed to say this in the 3.x/pathfinder thread but what I meant when I said I didn't think wealth = power was going to go away I meant only in D&D/pathfinder/rules heavy heroic fantasy.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:02 pm

Do gunslingers who craft do so

A. reliably enough to make consistent money?

B. Cheap enough to make enough money so adventuring isn't worth while?

If both of those are not true, it's not broken. If they make thousands of gold a day that's bad, but if they make 3 gold a day it really doesn't matter at all. Besides, you could argue nobody is buying their fucking guns and bullets because very few people in D&D land use those things because they inexplicably suck as weapons (break often, are very expensive, etc).

Worrying about crafting making small amounts of money is silly. Wizards can make something like 125 gold a day using a trait, a wizard discovery and high int. At first level. That's broken in a boring and stupid way (low level wizards shouldn't go adventuring). I'm sure the gunslinger isn't coming anywhere near that. If it is then well played, Paizo.

I also posit I did not misspell Harf. You see, that character is a rouge 17 of harf elf. This implies he comes from harf elf; though where harf elf is I do not know.

souran · Post by **souran** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:23 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:.

Worrying about crafting making small amounts of money is silly. Wizards can make something like 125 gold a day using a trait, a wizard discovery and high int. At first level. That's broken in a boring and stupid way (low level wizards shouldn't go adventuring). I'm sure the gunslinger isn't coming anywhere near that. If it is then well played, Paizo.

Actually, because players can often control the time compresion/time flow/rate of action of the game anything that makes money from a non advenuring source or a skill roll is broken.

There are however varying degress of broken. The amount of money players can make from craft or profession skillchecks can be broken. Its just compared to chain binding efreet to give you 15k gold is way more broken.

The thing is that the people on the Piazzo bored are probably correct, it is a broken situation.

however Pseudo is also correct, its a drop in the bucket of a larger problem that pathfail doesn't begin to actually fix. I guess thats being right for the wrong reasons?

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:51 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:This implies he comes from harf elf; though where harf elf is I do not know.

Somewhere in Lebanon, I believe.

Count Arioch the 28th · Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:24 pm

Maxus wrote:Give her levels in Ninja.

If there isn't a hentai about a ninja maid catgirl prostitute then one needs to be made. Just don't make her a lesbian too, because that much awesome would cause a singularity. In my pants...

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:19 pm

It's worth noting that singularities are infinitely small, so it may not be a comparison you want to make involving certain things in your pants.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:40 pm

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:If there isn't a hentai about a ninja maid catgirl prostitute then one needs to be made. Just don't make her a lesbian too, because that much awesome would cause a singularity. In my pants...

Well... http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html ... perpage=50

No, I am not aware of any lesbian catgirl ninja maid prostitute characters.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:59 am

souran wrote:
Pseudo Stupidity wrote:.

Worrying about crafting making small amounts of money is silly. Wizards can make something like 125 gold a day using a trait, a wizard discovery and high int. At first level. That's broken in a boring and stupid way (low level wizards shouldn't go adventuring). I'm sure the gunslinger isn't coming anywhere near that. If it is then well played, Paizo.

Actually, because players can often control the time compresion/time flow/rate of action of the game anything that makes money from a non advenuring source or a skill roll is broken.

There are however varying degress of broken. The amount of money players can make from craft or profession skillchecks can be broken. Its just compared to chain binding efreet to give you 15k gold is way more broken.

Frustration in a pathfinder game:

DM: You have a month of downtime

Me (lvl 9 alchemist with a +30 or so to my craft alchemy): Okay I make all the stuff I want to make, then concentrate on Craft Alchemy for 3 weeks. I... *rolls* get a 46 in Craft Alchemy.

DM: Okay we'll say it costs you 100gp in raw materials. *rolls* you make 5 gold back.

Me: 5 gold profit or 5 gold total?

DM: Total.

Me: In 3 weeks??? That doesn't even cover the expenses. Are you seriously telling me that I can't make a profit off of things that I make?

DM: There's not that much money in the city, and that's what the rules say

Me: *fume*

DM: Bard you're up

Bard: I perform for the month. I rolled a 37.

DM: You make 500 gold.

Me: WTF? There's no market for anything I make, up to and including magic potions, and I'm the only fucker who *can* make magic potions in town aside from the wizard, but apparently there's 500 gold floating around for entertainment expenses??? I burn the fucking town down with the surplus of alchemist fire that I have.

DM: Okay, moving on to the fighter-

Me: No stop I'm serious. I burn the fucking town down.

DM: Moving on to the fighter-

Fighter: Dude, he burnt the town down. Let's handle that first.

DM: Okay fine you make 50 gold profit. Better?

Me: Not really, but I'll move the game along.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:05 am

50GP is a small profit for burning the town down. You'd expect to get heaps of stuff out of the smoking ruins.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:49 am

Must remember that for a game sometime...Creative arson. Maybe a fire mage. "Hey. Mister. I just set your castle on fire."

"What? Stone doesn't burn!"

"It does if you make the fire hot enough."

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:07 am

Koumei wrote:50GP is a small profit for burning the town down. You'd expect to get heaps of stuff out of the smoking ruins.

Apparently they realized their impending doom and gave all their money to the fucking bard.

As a rule I don't try to be destructive to a game like that. But when a DM can't even stay consistent for 20 seconds and blows off my complaint, it's an issue.

The later discussion I pointed out that I can actually make metric assloads of stuff with Craft Alchemy, not just acid vials. He still was not particularly cooperative and was mumbling shit about material components and how it wasn't really worth it when I pointed out my class ability was to shit potions. They'd only last one day, but if I had the spell and they had the need, I could whip up an infusion in literally one minute of time. Surely enough to make a couple hundred gold in a month of downtime in a decently sized town that could sell magic items up to like 5-6000 gold easily.

And it's not like 500 gold could actually *do* anything that would break my 9th level character (other than maybe gaining an extra spell or two from a scroll). The next down time we had I took my personal funds and created Joselito's coffee house, complete with hookah lounge and opium den in the back for the nobles. Which *almost* side-tracked the party into an economy mini-game that would have been kind of fun to get into, but the DM decided to railroad us onto some bullshit excuse for an adventure that consisted of one random encounter per session for half a dozen sessions. That's it. No real role playing, just a shit load of wasting time and one random encounter. And then listening to the DM bitch that we would one-round kill the NPC. Half the time the slowest two PCs wouldn't even get to act. It was kind of comical.

souran · Post by **souran** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:44 pm

TheFlatline wrote:The later discussion I pointed out that I can actually make metric assloads of stuff with Craft Alchemy, not just acid vials. He still was not particularly cooperative and was mumbling shit about material components and how it wasn't really worth it when I pointed out my class ability was to shit potions. They'd only last one day, but if I had the spell and they had the need, I could whip up an infusion in literally one minute of time. Surely enough to make a couple hundred gold in a month of downtime in a decently sized town that could sell magic items up to like 5-6000 gold easily.

And it's not like 500 gold could actually *do* anything that would break my 9th level character (other than maybe gaining an extra spell or two from a scroll). The next down time we had I took my personal funds and created Joselito's coffee house, complete with hookah lounge and opium den in the back for the nobles. Which *almost* side-tracked the party into an economy mini-game that would have been kind of fun to get into, but the DM decided to railroad us onto some bullshit excuse for an adventure that consisted of one random encounter per session for half a dozen sessions. That's it. No real role playing, just a shit load of wasting time and one random encounter. And then listening to the DM bitch that we would one-round kill the NPC. Half the time the slowest two PCs wouldn't even get to act. It was kind of comical.

It looks like your issues are all behind the screen. Your DM doesn't have a fucking clue.

However, if your coffe house makes or alchemy makes you enough money that that it impacts either your decision to adventure or your power level while adventuring its a broken source of wealth.

What he was doing with the bard is fucking rediculous. He would almost HAVE to find a magic item every 3 weeks in order to make it more worthwhile than just owning the town.

Now if you are playing a game where there are only 67 days till level 20 then down time is rare enough that you actually give a fuck and the money you earn is inconsequential.

but you obviously are not playing that kind of game because you had 3 consecutive weeks of downtime.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:49 pm

If you give the 125 gp/day wizard (and this is selling at half price, of course) a hobby performing he could make even MORE gold a day. Not much more, but he has 17 hours in a day where he isn't crafting, so he could pick up another job.

Except he's fucking rich. If he sells at full price the fucker is making 2125 a day. Those NPCs who own the magic shops must be LOADED.

Also holy shit, that rouge- 17 is totally from Lebanon. Weird, all that Engrish made me think Japan.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:07 pm

souran wrote: It looks like your issues are all behind the screen. Your DM doesn't have a fucking clue.

I think that was obvious to everyone when he said he was playing pathfinder.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:08 pm

Breaking news: the folks at Paizo are throwing their money down the toilet wisely investing in an MMO!

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcut

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:06 pm

souran wrote: It looks like your issues are all behind the screen. Your DM doesn't have a fucking clue.

However, if your coffe house makes or alchemy makes you enough money that that it impacts either your decision to adventure or your power level while adventuring its a broken source of wealth.

What he was doing with the bard is fucking rediculous. He would almost HAVE to find a magic item every 3 weeks in order to make it more worthwhile than just owning the town.

Now if you are playing a game where there are only 67 days till level 20 then down time is rare enough that you actually give a fuck and the money you earn is inconsequential.

but you obviously are not playing that kind of game because you had 3 consecutive weeks of downtime.

In this case yes, the DM is a train wreck.

And as of this past friday, I was officially, secretly kicked out of the game. As in un-invited, along with the guy playing the fighter, who was incidentally the only other competent character in the party (how's that for scary?).

Between him and I we'd dish around 120 points of damage a round. I suspect the real reason we were kicked out of the game was due to being the only characters that were combat capable. I mean, the alchemist is a *support* character, and yet I was in some cases doing more damage than the rest of the party combined. And I hadn't optimized my character, I just did what made sense out of the Advanced Player's Guide since I was banned around level 5 from looking at other options that would "break" my character further (and by break, I mean focus on bombs instead of taking the mutagen path which seemed like a dumb option).

Evidence towards that point? For the previous six months of sessions, I didn't miss one attack. No combat lasted longer than 3 rounds, with most combat lasting one round or less. Granted, the DM was a dolt who couldn't handle more than 1 NPC at a time so it wasn't a big deal. But this past game session my friend who is still playing said that even replacing me and the fighter with another fighter and a cleric, one monster NPC almost TPK'd the entire party. Which means I was right: the game is better off without me in it.

The DM hated it when I gained flight, invisibility, and all that other fun shit (which I got at like level 6 or 7 I think it was since Alchemists advance slower. So the mage should have been busting out with that shit for a couple levels, but never decided to). His already boring combat scenarios went straight out the window. I'd cast fly (or spider climb, or whatever mobility magic I needed), maybe quaff invisibility, and full round attack with bombs. Or contact poisons, or flasks. Or whatever.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:15 pm

hogarth wrote:Breaking news: the folks at Paizo are throwing their money down the toilet wisely investing in an MMO!

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcut

And this will be different from DDO how?

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:18 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote:
hogarth wrote:Breaking news: the folks at Paizo are throwing their money down the toilet wisely investing in an MMO!

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcut
And this will be different from DDO how?

Who knows? It doesn't exist yet.

There's a FAQ, though:
https://goblinworks.com/faq/

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:22 pm

It will not, except it replaces levels with "totally not levels, guys. You gain skills/class features at certain points, but we don't call that shit levels."

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:58 pm

souran wrote: The problem is that anything in 3.x or pathfinder that earns you money that is not adventuring is BROKEN.

There is however, a disconnect between what is broken and what makes sense. It makes sense that if a player works for a living doing Non-Adventuring things they should get paid. If they can think of a service they can provide that is in need for a community they can make considerable money on that.

However, because of the wealth = power relationship of the game every method of crafting really needs to result in a net loss of wealth (because it is a gain in power). Therefore if you can crafting something that would nominally result in a gain in power and sell it for a profit (thus allowing you to gain wealth which can also be turned into power) that craft/skill/action is by defintion broken.

I guess the main point is that something can be obvious and make sense, but still be broken because its impact on the game.

Well making more money by not adventuring makes no sense either, because the whole point of being an adventurer is that its a fast track to riches. When there are options where the village blacksmith or potion brewer is making more pay than a successful adventurer, something is very wrong even from a conceptual standpoint.

While blacksmiths and barmaids make money, the D&D paradigm is that these guys are chumps grinding away for small coin. The real way to get rich quick is to go raid tombs. That means that the relatively innocuous idol you found in the goblin lair should probably give you at least what the blacksmith makes in a month, and a major find should be over his yearly pay. And that's finds at low level.

At high level slaying a major dragon is getting you more cash than the king makes in yearly taxes.

The game actually stops making sense when a 1st level character can make more money with a steady job than he can by adventuring, because then there's no reason to adventure at all.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:52 pm

Isn't adventuring supposed to be more like playing the lottery? If you are unlucky you won't make much, but if you get a rich haul than you can already retire basically?

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:15 pm

I've been looking at some pathfinder stuff recently and perhaps the funniest thing I've noticed is that they fucked up the orc. Yes, the most iconic creature of fantasy will now totally rape your face and shit down your neck.

The 3.5 orc is a CR 1, the PF orc is CR 1/3, the same CR as a goblin. The PF orc also has 17 effective hit points and still deals 2d4+4 damage with that falchion.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monste ... s/orcs/orc