The Gaming Den

Apologizing would involve at some public or private level admitting what he did. Which could be bad for him, since confessing to your crimes is the first thing any lawyer will tell you not to do.

I guess I see your point, it's just odd with that memo I read, where it seemed like they were being somewhat open about what happened, at least within the company.

BeeRockxs wrote:No one here knows if LLC apologized to the other owners of CGL.

Given the other owner of CGL is his wife. I'm not sure that he needed to.

Based on what we know about the legal owners of CGL, yeah, he was stealing money from himself and his wife and giving it to himself and his wife. Which means the possible interested parties are the tax men and the license owner.

The various people who have been said to have paid for a chunk of CGL that they seem to have never been actually been provided would appear to be a separate possible issue. If there is an issue there it doesn't appear that any of them have decided to do anything about it.

Well, the other possible interested parties include the people that CGL didn't pay or underpaid or paid late. Like the ones in the lawsuit against CGL that we might hear back from next month.

LLC milking CGL dry probably had something to do with that.

kzt wrote:Based on what we know about the legal owners of CGL, yeah, he was stealing money from himself and his wife and giving it to himself and his wife. Which means the possible interested parties are the tax men and the license owner.

The various people who have been said to have paid for a chunk of CGL that they seem to have never been actually been provided would appear to be a separate possible issue. If there is an issue there it doesn't appear that any of them have decided to do anything about it.

It's a weird situation. Apparently, the correct paperwork was never filed for multiple owners. But the Colemans did take the money from other people to be part-owners of the company. He included the people that provided the money in the business of the company. He paid the taxes as if they were owners. He might also possibly have sold or given away percentages of the company to other people (which is also, as I understand it, illegal operations for an LLC). There's even one report that an "owner" died and supposedly Loren said he'd willed his ownership back to the company.

Now he's claiming (so I'm told) that he took people's money with the vague promise of ownership at some unspecified future date.

Ancient History wrote: Now he's claiming (so I'm told) that he took people's money with the vague promise of ownership at some unspecified future date.

It sounds like they were conned out of their money, it sounds like Fraud.

Orca wrote:Well, the other possible interested parties include the people that CGL didn't pay or underpaid or paid late. Like the ones in the lawsuit against CGL that we might hear back from next month.

I suspect that they could pursue action against him and his wife directly, as intermingling personal and corp accounts seems to be one of the elements that allows that option.

But most of the creditors don't appear to be doing anything aggressive about getting their money, so who knows?

Attempting to force CGL into bankruptcy isn't aggressive?

TheFlatline wrote:Attempting to force CGL into bankruptcy isn't aggressive?

3 of something like 50 creditors isn't "most".

Well,

Those that got "stiffed" (if they actually did, or if they just refused payment and proceeded with a lawsuit once they saw the company was vulnerable) can claim it as a business loss on thier income taxes.

It's not much, but it is something of a silver lining.

Clutch

There's actually only a need for 3 creditors to go to trial. Everyone else can take the "wait and see" approach where if the suit wins the company goes into bankruptcy and if the suit loses and the plaintiffs really are forced to pay restitution, they lose nothing. It's a tactic that I don't particularly approve of, but I do understand. It means that no matter who wins, they can claim to have been on their side the entire time.

-Username17

BeeRockxs wrote:

Ancient History wrote:Apologizing would involve at some public or private level admitting what he did. Which could be bad for him, since confessing to your crimes is the first thing any lawyer will tell you not to do.

No one here knows if LLC apologized to the other owners of CGL.

And it's not an option anyone has seriously considered as probable.

Mostly because 'Stoleman' would first have to admit wrong doing - which he surely has not despite acting like he has something to hide. Doing so would open him up to a lot of trouble.

Then he would have to admit that one (or more) of the things he did wrong was injurious (and of a possibly litigious nature) to his fellow owners.

Then he would have to go back in time and actually fill out the paperwork to establish that the other are, in any meaningful legal sense, co-owners. As it stands, he made a lot of talk and promises, but legally? He and his wife-a-roo are sole proprietors. I have a hard time believing that was an accident.

All of this - ALL OF IT - is pursuant to LLC actually admitting to himself he's a fuckup, has been one since he first began stealing, and has only gotten worse. But that in turn depends on him seeing it as a bad thing.

It's not. Or, not to him. Getting caught was the bad thing, despite its inevitability under the circumstances, and he blames everyone but himself for that. It's not an unusual reaction in our society - look how many fanboys have reacted to this by blaming Frank Trollman et al. for the problems.

Funny thing is, if someone broke into his mansion tomorrow and stole his gold, he would be righteously pissed. To a thief, getting ripped off is the ultimate insult.

Cent13

So, who's up for a Shadowrun to the Pacific Northwest?

The objective is to sneak into the crimelord's mansion, steal his gold, raise whatever hell we can, and get out.

Maxus wrote:So, who's up for a Shadowrun to the Pacific Northwest?

The objective is to sneak into the crimelord's mansion, steal his gold, raise whatever hell we can, and get out.

We need a 'Die Hard' ending, though, with synchronicity thrown in for good measure.

Someone pushes a balky light switch repeatedly in an old flat somewhere in the Ukraine.

Crimelord's mansion subsequently explodes in a gigantic ball of fire that can be seen, briefly, by the space shuttle crew as they fly over at night.

Slow-mo of pieces flying past, bits of burnt money fluttering down from the night sky....

Cent13

We had that idea allready when this all started i think ^^

Stahlseele wrote:We had that idea allready when this all started i think ^^

Oh, I'm sure. Doesn't mean it isn't tempting.

It is the first thing I thought when I saw this..."This can't be real, it is too much like Shadowrun."

You guys are discussing a criminal conspiracy. Not "Internet Hyperbole" but an actual criminal conspiracy.

Clutch

It's only a real conspiracy once it goes from theory to practice.

This is neither, really. It's just bullshitting.

Albeit I smiled at the mental image of a bunch of Shadowrun players/disillusioned devs sneaking into Loren Coleman's house to specifically steal his gold.

Nice to know Clutch can still be lured out of the bushes to try to paint people other than the upper CGL management as the bad guys.

Clutch, you DO understand the irony here, right? The CEO of a corporation which makes a game...

...A game that has corrupt corporations making secret back-room powerdeals to ensure their personal benefit, and they're generally opposed by skill people who do a lot of hands-on on-site work...

..Stole enough money to build a mansion and then asked the financial department to cover it up for him and he's being aided and abetted by the next couple layers of management?

Admittedly, this time there's no Matrix and less cyberware and no immortal elves parading about how awesome they are. I wonder if the idea cross Coleman's mind. Certainly he had plenty of time over the many, many transactions.

When I told a friend about this a couple of months ago, he said, "Let's do a shadowrun. Right now. This guy's house."

Anyone who knows even the premise of Shadowrun is going to have the irony and idea cross his mind.

Clutch9800 wrote:You guys are discussing a criminal conspiracy. Not "Internet Hyperbole" but an actual criminal conspiracy.

Clutch

Nope.

Clutch9800 wrote:You guys are discussing a criminal conspiracy. Not "Internet Hyperbole" but an actual criminal conspiracy.

Clutch

I seriously thought you had joined the side of sanity and were calling the actions of the owners of CGL a criminal conspiracy. And was like "No shit? Of course we have been discussing an actual criminal conspiracy for months now!"

Sadly I was mistaken.

erik, that is so funny.

Just proves what kind of people support Catalyst.

Guys... it's Clutch.

What more needs be said?

Cent13