Still more Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[Surgo]

True, but the point was that religions can gain that kind of power even with no objective proof, and K was saying there was no objective proof that the DND religions were vaild in-setting.

This is another bit of 'missing the point'. Having no objective proof that the D&D religions (specifically the religions of the actual gods in the books that grant spells, which we are talking about) are valid is not the same as having no objective proof that ANY religion is valid. The point is that a religion need not be headed by a cleric...like, at all.

[K]

True, but the point was that religions can gain that kind of power even with no objective proof, and K was saying there was no objective proof that the DND religions were vaild in-setting.

This is another bit of 'missing the point'. Having no objective proof that the D&D religions (specifically the religions of the actual gods in the books that grant spells, which we are talking about) are valid is not the same as having no objective proof that ANY religion is valid. The point is that a religion need not be headed by a cleric...like, at all.

Heck, a religion doesn't even have to be a valid one with a god that grants spells. It just needs well spoken and powerful agents.

There really is no way to prove that a person is an agent of a god or just a powerful spellcaster or other character. Asking people to submit to magical effects by item or spell is not a valid form of persuasion in a world of mind control and illusions, especially considering that even divinations can grant false information under the right conditions.

"Of course, it's not cursed. You'll just believe me after you turn it on."

Yeh, right.

I mean, even of a god pops down and starts whipping and whomping on a city, is that any different from a giant golem or dragon smacking down a city? Sorcerers can just say that their power comes from that powerful dragon and even they might not know any better.

[Jerry]

K, I think that the point is that you can gain power from raw faith alone (and praying at churches and obeying said deity's tenets).

And in the real world, there are plenty of people like that. Imagine in a D&D setting.

[Prak]

If someone tried to animate your mother, you'd be upset. That really is the acid test of evil.

I'd be okay with it, as long as they didn't have sex with it, or order it to kill me.

Granted, I'm pretty sure I'm actually neutral evil anyway...

Same, except I really wouldn't care if they had sex with it... or my own corpse for that matter, if someone wants to fuck my bloated corpse after I die, more power to 'em, at least the remains will have some fun.

[K]

K, I think that the point is that you can gain power from raw faith alone (and praying at churches and obeying said deity's tenets).

No, you can't. Otherwise, every character would have faith-based powers.

Clerics are special because faith does give them power by special training (called class levels). Everyone else's faith is just unjustified and unreasonable belief. Heck, you can just follow a god's dictates and pray at their church and your soul ends up in the wrong plane.

Now, if there were rules where praying fervently to some god actually got you something, then that would be true. Hell, it'd probably even be a better and more believable setting.

Right now, faith doesn't get you dick if you aren't a cleric.

[Prak]

so like a DC (whatever) Kn. religion or perform (prayer) check to mimic the effect of one a small list of spells that are thematically appropriate?

[K]

so like a DC (whatever) Kn. religion or perform (prayer) check to mimic the effect of one a small list of spells that are thematically appropriate?

You'd probably get a patron god and a few who listen, and the rest ignore you in anything but exceptional circumstances. Maybe you use action points to activate it. The spells that would occur would be based on what you need the power for and how important it is to that god and its domain (so the god of war would bless you with magic weapons or something to win a battle, but a god of death might only heal some damage if you didn't intend to kill anyone soon).

[ckafrica]

Well there were those domain related feats in complete crusader that could be taken by anyone and certainly suggested by their nature you would be related to a faith that provided that domain. THat would at least be how i would concieve of them if a player chose one, though that is certainly envoking DM's fiat.

[K]

Well there were those domain related feats in complete crusader that could be taken by anyone and certainly suggested by their nature you would be related to a faith that provided that domain. THat would at least be how i would concieve of them if a player chose one, though that is certainly envoking DM's fiat.

If you have to take feats to have a god listen to you, then you might as well have feats for your own powers and ignore the gods.

[Draco_Argentum]

To be fair foil action isn't obvious about not working against full attacks. Its also a lot easier to use powerfully than most of the good wizard tactics. I think this is why it gets such hot press, everyone can look at it an instantly see that its really good. Not as many people look at illusions and see an auto-win vs mindless creatures.

[CatharzGodfoot]

To be fair foil action isn't obvious about not working against full attacks.

Foil Action (Ex): A 9th level Fighter may attempt to monkeywrench any action an opponent is taking. The Fighter may throw sand into a beholder's eye, bat aside a key spell component, or strike a weapon hand with a thrown object, but the result is the same: the opponent's action is wasted, and any spell slots, limited ability uses, or the like used to power it are expended. A Fighter must be within 30 feet of his opponent to use this ability, and must hit with a touch attack or ranged touch attack. Using Foil Action is an Immediate action. A Fighter may not wait until an action is partially completed before deciding to attempt to foil the action, but must instead attempt to foil an action as it is declared. Note that this means that a Fighter may not foil a Full Attack (because it is not declared until after it has already begun), nor may he foil a move or charge action that began out of range.

Its also a lot easier to use powerfully than most of the good wizard tactics. I think this is why it gets such hot press, everyone can look at it an instantly see that its really good. Not as many people look at illusions and see an auto-win vs mindless creatures.

How about illusions to auto-win vs. minded creatures?

Color Spray
Illusion (Pattern) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 15 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped burst
Duration: Instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

...5 or more HD:
The creature is stunned for 1 round.

The effects are very similar. Color spray affects multiple targets (but can be widened); foil action affects one target at greater range. Foil action requires a ranged touch attack; color spray requires a Will save. Color spray takes the target out for a round, but requires a standard action (but can be quickened); foil action is a interrupt but only stops a single action.

[virgil]

I generally see Will saves made much more often than touch attacks missed, especially since touch ACs are almost universally low amongst MM encounters. Also, once the fighter gets two or more immediate actions in a round, then he can start about 10' outside his opponent's reach and pepper with arrows unto death. The opponent only ever has one standard and one move, which are both foiled, leaving only a 5' step (which the fighter can respond in kind).

Of course, this brings in similar circumstances with the rogue and/or wizard at such levels, where initiative determines the fight more than anything.

[angelfromanotherpin]

The opponent only ever has one standard and one move, which are both foiled, leaving only a 5' step (which the fighter can respond in kind).

Except of course for enemies with inherent extra actions, like Chokers or Balors.

[JonSetanta]

I've been thinking of D&D Illusions lately in the same way Naruto handles them; some are targeted directly at a person and require some kind of Will save.
Failure means that your opponent explodes into crows in your own view and then stabs you out of no-where, but to everyone else you appear to freeze in place with a horrified expression as your foe says "You are already caught in my 'genjustu'. "
And then stabs you.
In some forms, these mental-only illusions could even cause damage as the conscious mind rebels against the unreality.
Actual physical damage ends the effect.

The other kind, illusions made of light and shadow, would be sensed by anyone.
They would also not allow a save, as they don't actually interact with a person.
They can provide concealment and disguise outward appearances, but can only be truly ignored once interacted with. In some ways, it would fall more into a category of "roleplaying" than "rollplaying"; these illusions cause no damage. Ever.
All that 'quasi-real' bullshit would have to be actual physical damage caused by physical objects made of solid shadow.
And yet, until a person either knows a specific deception is an illusion or witnesses the image or sensation to be false, it can't be "disbelieved", and even afterward it doesn't magically become translucent, negligible, or similar.
It would continue to provide cover and deception, but everyone involved with it would then have the option to blatantly ignore, say, the fake dragon or troll molesting them.

[Draco_Argentum]

The effects are very similar. Color spray affects multiple targets (but can be widened); foil action affects one target at greater range. Foil action requires a ranged touch attack; color spray requires a Will save. Color spray takes the target out for a round, but requires a standard action (but can be quickened); foil action is a interrupt but only stops a single action.

Yes yes yes, sleep colour spray are the rad. We know, almost everyone can see that those are good. You're missing the point of what I said. A lot of spells require thought to even see the power uses, illusions can make you win without a roll of any type against some enemies. Foil and wizard SoDs aren't like that, they're far more obvious about what they will do to an enemy.

No the bit about foiling a full attack. I'm pretty sure it was that clause which got added after a few wasted pages at WotC back when RoW was hot off the press. If it wasn't that it was something to do with movement actions getting foiled.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Just for the record, you aren't looking at the double-foil combo (foil the move, foil the standard while out of range) until level 13. Monsters still have some very good tactical options to work around this, such as:

Level 13th Wizard - Can be using all action in a round (Quickened or immediate action spell, standard spell, concentration on an existing spell as a move action or moving a wall of fire, an a free action/command word item)

Level 13th Fighter - Can Shoot arrows. You still have to take 1 of the 3 arrows and 2 Foil actions to yourself, 3 more attacks in the form of darts if they have TWF.

Glabrezu - if in melee, you can only stop 2 of it's five attacks.

Storm Giant - May only stop 2 of it's 3 ranged attacks (and it may still move 5')

Yes, it is good at level 13 where you can stop an enemy from getting to you (if they are within 30 feet) and stop a ranged attack/spell. You can come close to soloing most monsters under these circumstances, but you still have to be out of range with your actions. Opponents with legitimate tactics can still stop you (the tanglefoot bag full attack, a solid SoD/SoS spell, ability counter attacks, etc.) or play through the pain (these ones should appear in groups of more than 1).

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Paizo debate on the importance of game balance

It gets to be really fun on page 2, when people start basically saying that you should play a fighter because you want to hold a shiny sword, not because you want to do anything.

Oh, and I've posted in that thread as Kelvin273, so feel free to make fun of my inadequate defenses of the pro-balance position.

[Psychic Robot]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1047330

Discussion on extended rests degenerates into what "once per day" REALLY means.

[RandomCasualty2]

Yes, it is good at level 13 where you can stop an enemy from getting to you (if they are within 30 feet) and stop a ranged attack/spell. You can come close to soloing most monsters under these circumstances, but you still have to be out of range with your actions. Opponents with legitimate tactics can still stop you (the tanglefoot bag full attack, a solid SoD/SoS spell, ability counter attacks, etc.) or play through the pain (these ones should appear in groups of more than 1).

Mainly you just stop an enemy from getting close to you, and you're pretty much set. The number of ranged attackers that don't use spells in D&D are very limited. And most of the time if they do ranged attack you, you can beat them out with your own ranged attacks, so you wouldn't really use time foiling against an archer.

But the majority of monsters can't do that, and everything else you just prevent from closing into melee with you.

I mean take a great wyrm red dragon against two moderately high level fighters. The dragon can't quicken spells, so it's just got its standard and its move action. That means if you keep foiling it before it can get into melee, it's basically hosed.

[Calibron]

I mean take a great wyrm red dragon against two moderately high level fighters. The dragon can't quicken spells, so it's just got its standard and its move action. That means if you keep foiling it before it can get into melee, it's basically hosed.

You've got a nigh unstoppable killing machine that casts as a 19 level Sorcerer and it's not smart enough to have picked up Time Stop, Wish, or Greater Celerity? Or Contingency for that matter? Or have picked up Craft Contingent Spell with one of its 14 feats? Or any of the other simple things such a tactically varied and intelligent monster could do?

Foil locking is only good for dumb brutes and certain creatures that depend solely on standard or full-round action abilities.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Correction:

Foil locking is only good if it is possible to get close to an enemy, and if the enemy uses actions.

Saying the counter to foil action is not getting close to the Fighter...is stupid. That negates every melee martial character in the game, as well as some ranged characters (Acid flask Rogue, etc).

[Draco_Argentum]

To belabor the point slightly, one of the things I try to tell new players in my own games is that you don't have to be doing something every round of every fight to be contributing.

No. I get an action every few minutes. I want to be doing something every time I get the chance.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Is D&D literature?

Not so much a 'laugh or cry' thing, but It's a bit surprising to have this come up in my freshman writing class.[/url]

[ubernoob]

Is D&D literature?

Not so much a 'laugh or cry' thing, but It's a bit surprising to have this come up in my freshman writing class.

That was an interesting read.

[Psychic Robot]

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t ... ge=1&pp=15

Christ. Christ Almighty. Jesus hates ENWorld with a passion.