Lago's Kickass D&D-Book Marketing Strategy!

[DragonChild]

There is really very little purpose in producing marking effects that you layer rider effects on.

I think 4e's purpose on having the riders tied to marks is that marks don't overlap. That way, you can't have two fighters mark a guy, and then have one guaranteed to get a bonus attack in if they flank him. If that's good or bad seems debatable, but I see the point, as it makes adding a second fighter to the party significantly better than adding the first.

[Lago PARANOIA]

If 4E didn't worship critical existence failure then the stacking marks would work out just fine. You get enough coverage to stop a really big monster at the cost of ignoring smaller enemies.


And honestly, that's what really needs to happen. Even a min-maxxed to the hilt Warden or Fighter can't expect to do more than about 70 points of damage with their mark violation, which is just not enough mojo to convince level 24-30 monsters to stop picking on the controller.

[Username17]

The FFXI and 4e versions of Sub Jobs are probably not what we'd want, because they lead to serious min/max dumpster diving. To whit:

• In FFXI, your Subjob acts as another class at half level. This begins a cycle of min/maxing where many abilities from some arbitrary number of levels ago are now totally fucking worthless, and some synergize with what you're doing and some don't. There's an explanation of it Here. But I don't think I have to explain at length why a system in which Ninjas "always" sub Warrior is bad for complete emulation.
• In 4e, the subjob lets you dumpster dive for any power off the original list, which invariably leads to power discrepancies. It's basically letting the Paladin put points into Valkyrie

What would probably want to be done for a class based system is to premake the subjobs as being a couple of different packages that gave you a much more limited sampling of the powers that were level appropriate and yet not the ultimate moves of the original class. So rather than getting the skeleton army or curses of a lower level Necromancer (which might well be completely non-level appropriate and incapable of doing much more than taking up space), the Sub-Necromancer might get a vastly reduced size of undead pack that were nonetheless scaled to level individually.

Essentially what this means is that each of the subjobs is a short, but fully written class that is thematically (and in most cases structurally within the rules) based upon one of the main classes. So that would be like 13 micro classes to write. A very real possibility is adding in Prestige Classes, that you can jump into instead of continuing with your class and taking a Subjob. Pretty easy to see how that could be plausibly done.

-Username17

[Crissa]

I've yet to come across a DM other than Frank willing to accept custom or campaign specific classes, despite the entry on Prestige classes saying just that.

-Crissa

[erik]

I was thinking something along those lines. Subjobs would scale, but they would lag behind whatever class they were derived from at a constant range (say always -2 levels behind).

However, I see it not so much a micro class rather ideally I reckon there'd probably be about 3 niches per class from which you could choose 1 to subjob as your 2nd class. By having specific bits you could grab, there isn't much profit in dumpster diving so long as they are horizontal boosts. They're minor enough that they aren't mandatory.

In such a case having subjobs available starting at level 3 would be the thing to do I imagine.

A concern I hold is whether acquiring a single niche ability at a -2 level lag of another class would be enough for people to consider that a worthwhile multiclass option? It's more of a frill on your class than a multiclass. I think that is not that bad a deal if the classes are all interesting and viable in their own right however. A little twist may be all that is needed to create a chunk of diversity.


I'm not wild about prestige classes. It seems to me in their case that less is more. By having specific prestige classes you shut more conceptual doors than you open. Folks won't consider their single class prestigious or special if there is another option that intrinsically is special. I say it is much better to have someone be a Mage of the Arcane Order or an Elemental Savant in title only rather than mechanically.

I do wonder whether subjobs as 2nd class niches would be mandatory, and if not then what opportunity cost would be expended to gain that niche ability, assuming my distaste for prestige classes is not held by myself alone. We don't want to trade vertical power for horizontal power or vice versa. So what horizontal power would we desire to trade for another class' schtick? Perhaps forgoing a bonus option that is available to a pure single class character. So long as that bonus single class option is not mandatory, but in fact is a 2nd-tier ability (to be comparable to the -2 level of the subjob niche).

Anywho, that's my brain storming on the matter.

[Username17]

Subjobs would scale, but they would lag behind whatever class they were derived from at a constant range (say always -2 levels behind).

I think the idea is to have subjobs be massively behind horizontally and not behind Vertically. While subbing Hero will give you a very short list of sword maneuvers, those sword maneuvers should be level appropriate or it will just end up like Wizard of the Spiral Tower - where Elementalist sub Hero never actually swings the sword and the combo is just there to unlock new pretty princess outfits.

I do wonder whether subjobs as 2nd class niches would be mandatory, and if not then what opportunity cost would be expended to gain that niche ability, assuming my distaste for prestige classes is not held by myself alone.

There are definitely other people who hate PrCs. But let's face it: PrCs are the most popular addition to the game. Possibly ever. Hell, even the 4e style Paragon Paths are wildly popular. Much more so than continuing to write Rogue on your character sheet for 10 more levels.

The number one thing that has to be stressed is the idea that Prestige Classes are only for character concepts that require being high level. So you can have a Dragon Knight or Storm Warden Prestige Class, but no way in hell can you excuse a "dagger master" PrC. The second important concept to stress is that prestige classes should not be associated with one class. The whole thing about having six different paragon paths that are just "Like a Rogue, but higher level" is totally unacceptable. All of these classes should be new directions of the character, not narrowing of the character. So, not like Might and Magic VII class upgrades like at all.

-Username17

[Fuchs]

I've yet to come across a DM other than Frank willing to accept custom or campaign specific classes, despite the entry on Prestige classes saying just that.

-Crissa

I almost exclusively use custom prestige classes.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Crissa, every 3E MU* I've been to and at least half of the tabletop games I've been to have had custom PrCs. And why the hell wouldn't they? Prestige Classes are a great way to flesh out the world.


Let's take a step back and go to levels for a moment.

While I think that 4E's idea of having your advancement split into different tiers with a profound change in theme and tone coming with each advancement was a great one, my problem with this is that A) they didn't actually do a theme change except in name only and B) there are just too many levels to represent the swing of changes that they want to do.

The advancement to 11th or 21st level is just too small to make it feel like there's a big change. I mean, seriously, a Pit Fighter Demigod who gets to 21st level gets a +2 to attack and a +4 to damage. That is fucking weaksauce. Here's what I would do if I was designing the game:

25 levels, split into 4 tiers of advancement. The tiers are arranged in such a way so that people from a lower tier can't take on people from a higher one without the stars aligning up juuuust right. Which means that monsters like fire giants and beholders are gateway monsters; if you beat one of these bad boys you know that you've entered the next tier of awesomeness and your life is changed forever. For example:

Level 1-4: Adventurer tier. These are the levels where a real-world badass with a nonmagical sword could plausibly take on the challenges with some Batman-level planning or a good dose of luck on their side. The skill gate monster here is the troll and the medusa. Iconic Heroes: Samwise Gamgee, Robin Hood after his Bowldering, and Harry Potter.

Level 5-11: Heroic Tier. These are the levels in which heroics need magical assistance to get into the door. Martial heroes get phased out early in this tier and start developing powers or getting loaded up with magical equipment. Stunts that got you by in the adventurer tier like bamboo spear traps and putting beeswax in your ear become increasingly less viable, though they occasionally work once in awhile to teach us the old moral of 'sometimes it's better to think than use your superpowers'. The skill gate monster here is the beholder and the (young adult) dragon. Iconic heroes: Batman, Luke Skywalker, and Kratos.

Level 12-18: Paragon Tier: Heroes take on challenges that are clearly meant for superhumans. This is the part where heroes regularly take on quests that have the potential for threatening the safety of the world. Anyone who does not explicitly have superpowers can fuck off and go home, even if armed to the gill with Macguffins and magical trinkets. The skill gate monster here is the lich and the marilith. Iconic Heroes: Naruto, Gilgamesh, and Kenshiro.

Levels 19-25: Epic Tier: Really, the limits to this campaign rest with your imagination. You no longer spend much of your time in the Prime Material plane because there's nothing left for you to do--and besides, your fights would probably obliterate the landscape anyway. Armies, if they matter at all, are generally shit like thousands of young adult dragons with death knight dragon riders and can still be taken on by an Epic-level hero. At the end of this campaign you should be able to take on warrior gods and the tarrasque, because you are one. Iconic Heroes: Hercules, Superman, and Goku.

Level 26+? Basically it's just a victory lap from then on. You've pretty much conquered every challenge ever thought up by writers and now you're doing things like making Hastur suck your weiner and making Galactus barf up all of the planets he ate over the eons. The game, despite giving out some general guidelines like increasing hit points or attack bonuses, isn't even designed to go that high--it works out like the 3E epic rules where there's a tacit agreement that at some unknown point in the future the game breaks down for your group and your game devolves to Magic Tea Party from then on out or you start a new campaign. Monsters, if they exist, are usually wankfest creatures like Lord Yahweh and Shiva.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm sorry, I wasn't entirely clear on the monk shifting thing. I was thinking more of instead of monks transforming into demons and one-winged angels and all that to fight (though certainly keep that; it's a common enough trope in games like Godhand and Jade Empire) they do things like turn their bones to the hardness of diamond or heat up the skin in the palm enough to set it on fire. The martial artists in Naruto, Fist of the North Star, and even Iron Fist do the same things and that's good enough for me.



I'll accept the name of Paladin in the game if only because the name has squatter's rights. I know that most of the image problems come from D&D depictions, but this is still a D&D game and D&D is still the trendsetter for class depictions. If I had my way the class would be called the Crusader or the Knight or the Hero or something.

The fact is that there isn't a one-word title that accurately expressed the Gish concept in an exclusive manner that would distinguish it from the other classes.

I'm feeling you, but can't we brainstorm a few more names? Like Shade or Magus? Gish sounds really, really dumb if you're not using it as a nickname. I mean, yes, CHA-paladins are known as Laser Paladins colliqually but I would roll my eyes if there was actually a PP titled that. Gish isn't evocative or meaningful or even cool-sounding. You might as well call the class Zarths or Dethords.

And in that line, a single good picture of the iconic Hob Hero in full Samurai armor taking off a metal "calm person" face mask to reveal a tusked oni-face underneath will seriously tell you more about that race and why people want to play it than any race got in 3rd or 4th edition. Full stop.

And that's sort of my point. If people are going to be sold on a race just because of their cool picture, why stop there? I mean, the casual observer or first=time player goes 'Oh, cool, Klingons in samurai armor' and pick Hobgoblin. Mission successful, I guess, but when they start reading more on the race to expand their concept or whatever they'll be all "so hobgoblins are pretty much just orcs with a different culture?" Why not throw in a race that has a cool picture but also has more to them that separates them from the other races so that when people start digging they aren't regularly questioning the existence of the superfluous race like they do with the half-orc and gnome.

The fact that Dakkon was Gith is basically all you need as an explanation for why Gith should be a playable race.

So hire some other artist to do a badass minotaur or doppleganger or genasi picture. The Gith didn't sell the concept, the artwork did. And once the novelty of the artwork wears off all you have is a vanilla emotionless race with freckles.

[Username17]

And that's sort of my point. If people are going to be sold on a race just because of their cool picture, why stop there? I mean, the casual observer or first=time player goes 'Oh, cool, Klingons in samurai armor' and pick Hobgoblin. Mission successful, I guess, but when they start reading more on the race to expand their concept or whatever they'll be all "so hobgoblins are pretty much just orcs with a different culture?"

Look, I would be happy - fuck I would be happier - to just have one toothy race, one small race, and humans. That's plenty for me. That's plenty to run an entire world and fill dozens of novels worth of material. But D&D players want fiddly races. They want to have more than one flavor of elf. They want to have fucking robot-people. They want more than one flavor of orc. They want these things. And it's not really D&D unless you give it to them.

Yes, Hobs have a warrior culture and sharp teeth. And Orcs have a warrior culture and sharp teeth. But Orcs are filled with rage and get some sort of togglable Offense/Defense tradeoff, while Hobs are quiet and reserved so they get some sort of precision or carefullness ability instead. Hobs and Orcs basically couldn't be more different from the standpoint of structure. They essentially appeal to completely different character concepts and play styles. You want to talk about pointless? Elves and Drow. They are both sexy ladies who can see in the dark. And they are both called "elves" - the one is literally just a palette swap of the other. But people want them both, so they get to have them.

Yes, you could manufacture a kick ass new playable race. And if you gave it good art you could get it some new fans. But why the hell would you do that when you have plenty of basic races to choose from that already have fans? Did you learn nothing from 4e's experiment with the fucking Dragonborn?

Githyanki have never been given a playable writeup, not ever. Do you know how many Gith PCs there are? A Lot! More than Doppelganger PCs or even Raptoran PCs, even though Raptorans and Doppelgangers (through "changelings") got a playable writeup! The reasons why one race gets traction and another doesn't are mysterious even to marketing specialists. But it's nonetheless factual. Gith and Warforged and Kobolds and Drow all have traction that Myconids, Dragonborn, Changelings, and Shifters simply do not have. Personally, I think the Warforged are just as stupid as Shifters and Changelings. But open your eyes, man. No one gives two shits about Changelings, but Warforged have fucking fan clubs.

You may personally like Doppelgangers. You probably are not alone. But they objectively lack the traction of Hobgoblins or Githyanki. This is simply observable reality. And if you cut races that are important to people in order to make room for some bullshit pet project of your own, you're going to alienate people and players will walk. That's what the Dragonborn project showed us, and I for one still can't believe that the WotC authors thought they had to actually try that in order to get that information.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

But they objectively lack the traction of Hobgoblins or Githyanki.

I have a hard time believing this, no offense. I believe the Githyanki thing slightly more because Psionics and the Astral Plane have their share of fans and writeups. But what convinces me otherwise is that in other popular adaptations of speculative fiction you can't really just point at one race and go 'oh, there's a Gith offshoot' or 'this race was clearly inspired by Hobgoblins'--which is a test Sahugin and Lizardmen and Goblins and Dopplegangers can pass. So... where's the demand?

And even if this is the case, why not have Hobgoblins be an offshoot of orcs and Gith an offshoot of elf?

[Username17]

But they objectively lack the traction of Hobgoblins or Githyanki.

I have a hard time believing this, no offense. I believe the Githyanki thing slightly more because Psionics and the Astral Plane have their share of fans and writeups. But what convinces me otherwise is that in other popular adaptations of speculative fiction you can't really just point at one race and go 'oh, there's a Gith offshoot' or 'this race was clearly inspired by Hobgoblins'--which is a test Sahugin and Lizardmen and Goblins and Dopplegangers can pass. So... where's the demand?

Yes you do.

And even if this is the case, why not have Hobgoblins be an offshoot of orcs and Gith an offshoot of elf?

Because you obviously haven't been listening. First of all, Hobgoblins are an offshoot of Goblins and Gith are an offshoot of Humans. But that doesn't even fucking matter, because offshoot race or not, they are their own deal in that they get a unique writeup. Drow are an offshoot of Elf. People accept this. They still get their own damn writeup because they have... traction.

Each of the races basically just gets a major ability and a minor power or two. These major abilities are based on racial stereotypes. And the reason the characters get so little from their species is because all of these species are basically just forehead aliens. So for example, Orcish Rage lets you go berserk and have worse defenses but do more of your offensive thing. An Orc Elementalist draws upon rage to blast with fire and an Orc Ranger draws upon rage to totally stab fools.

• Elves are Inspiring
• Hobgoblins are Careful
• Orcs are Angry
• Goblins are Sneaky
• Drow are Treacherous
• Dwarves are Willful
• Kobolds are Clever
• Warforged are Tireless
• Gnomes are Creative
• Humans are Adaptable
• Tieflings are Cruel
• Halflings are Tricky
• Gith are Stoic

So Gnomes can bust out Gnomish Creativity to make one power behave like another power. And this may be very useful to an Artificer because all of their encounter abilities do stabbity damage or electrical damage, and all of their dailies are blasts or acids. But you can be a Gnome Hero and totally Gnomish Creativity yourself some Ice Sword action. Or whatever.

But the take home message is that in D&D land, fucking all of the playable races could just be humans from different cultures or even just from different social classes.

-Username17

[IGTN]

I'm feeling you, but can't we brainstorm a few more names? Like Shade or Magus? Gish sounds really, really dumb if you're not using it as a nickname. I mean, yes, CHA-paladins are known as Laser Paladins colliqually but I would roll my eyes if there was actually a PP titled that. Gish isn't evocative or meaningful or even cool-sounding. You might as well call the class Zarths or Dethords.

Final Fantasy calls it a Red Mage. Warcraft III had an armored magic-and-swords unit called the Spell Breaker. I've heard the term "Battlemage" suggested, and we can steal the Warmage's name if we need to.

So it's pretty much either a) made-up word. Gish has traction here, and as an added bonus it's what they're actually called in-game by the Githyanki, or b) made-up compound word.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Based on what has been written here thus far, I get the distinct impression that the 3.X Druid's primary shticks have been divided up between the Ranger (shapechanging} the Elementalist (blasting) and the Druid (pets). Given this division of power, may I suggest renaming the Druid to the Beastmaster? Or alternatively have the Ranger remain conceptually similar to its 3.X/4E incarnation and have a separate class that focuses exclusively on changing into monsters like the Morpher from Final Fantasy Tactics Advance?

Also: what would the factional split look like? What races would be teamed up with one another?

[CatharzGodfoot]

"Spellsword" is D&D and covers it pretty well, as well as being a pun on "sellsword". "Warmage" is great, but for a lot of people it conjures up images of battle-scale magic rather than character-scale magic combined with maces and warhammers.

[IGTN]

It can't have "sword" in the name because some will use axes. Ditto "blade" because some will use maces.

Some other possibilities: Rune-something (e.g. Runeforger), Warrior-Adept. Also (something magical)-knight could work if not for the social status it implies (although that could be fixed by spelling out that knighthood is given to anyone strong enough that people aren't going to say otherwise). Spellknight would be an example of that, and works off spellsword.

[CatharzGodfoot]

It can't have "sword" in the name because some will use axes.

Yeah, well most sellswords these days use guns.

[Orca]

Warrior-mage works but it's clunky. I'd still use it in preference to Gish, or I'd use some similar thing like Spellknight, etc.

My objection to Gish? You're moving D&D further into its own niche which is occupied only by experienced D&D players. The name doesn't exist in any non-D&D fiction or RPG that I know of, and it's not self-explanatory like one of the compound words.

[Ganbare Gincun]

My objection to Gish? You're moving D&D further into its own niche which is occupied only by experienced D&D players. The name doesn't exist in any non-D&D fiction or RPG that I know of, and it's not self-explanatory like one of the compound words.

It's really no worse then naming someone a "Jedi" or a "Sith". And those class titles seem to have fared pretty well throughout the years.

[mean_liar]

I've yet to come across a DM other than Frank willing to accept custom or campaign specific classes, despite the entry on Prestige classes saying just that.

-Crissa

It has been demonstrated that you play with shitty GMs.

I'll echo Fuchs: I encourage and write custom PrCs tailored to campaign power levels and player expectations.

[Username17]

My objection to Gish? You're moving D&D further into its own niche which is occupied only by experienced D&D players. The name doesn't exist in any non-D&D fiction or RPG that I know of, and it's not self-explanatory like one of the compound words.

Do you have the same objection to Warforged, Githyanki, and Tiefings?

Drow is a real-world word, but it's so obscure that nobody knows it. Kobolds are real too, but they have pretty much the same meaning as Brownie or Knocker. But Tiefling isn't a word at all, and neither is warforged.

-Username17

[Ganbare Gincun]

May I also suggest including Shifters or some other kind of "animal people race", given the popularity of such races amongst certain geek subcultures?

Also: you know people are going to want to play all kind of crazy monster races. What would be the approach for rolling out Gnolls, Lizard Men, Minotaurs, Ogre and other "Monster Manual" monsters as playable characters? Would their entries be essentially replaced with a creature of that particular race with character levels tacked on?

[Username17]

May I also suggest including Shifters or some other kind of "animal people race", given the popularity of such races amongst certain geek subcultures?

Oh no doubt. Gnolls, Lizardfolk, Ibixians, Catfolk, Wererats, and even the Ducks from Runequest all have fans enough to make them stand up and get noticed more than Buomans, Changelings or Wildren. But... the fanbase is pretty fractured. Hell, I think Gnolls, Ibixians, and Wererats are pretty cool (although catfolk and ducks can go fuck themselves)

Sure, furries support each other in their shared quest for recognition, but they don't actually identify with each other very well. Crissa wants to be a centaur, she doesn't want to be an Ibixian. Or a Lizardfolk. The sad fact of the matter is that satisfying the furry contingent in any meaningful way requires over a dozen races. Like, as many as are being slated to satisfy like every other player. When you write in Kenku it satisfies the people with a desire for Crow people, but it doesn't satisfy the people who want Badger people (you need Armands) or Frog people (for which you need Nerra). When you throw down some good old fashion Yurian, you've made the crabmen fans very happy, but you won't satisfy the people who want to play snake men until you write Ophidians or Yuan-Ti.

The most popular furry race is the Kobold. It gets more ink than most other non-human, non-elf humanoids. And it should go into the PHB. What should be done for the rest of them is to have an entirely separate book called Law of the Jungle or something. And it can have page after page of crazy beasts for Druids to get from different climates and regions - and like 25 or more playable beastmen and powerful race beastmen. It's a market, it will make people happy, it will sell books, and it won't necessarily break the game or anything.

But it would be a bad use of space in the PHB. There are what, four or five flavors of Shifter? And the sad fact is that they don't collectively satisfy enough of the furry fanbase to collectively draw as much interest as Warforged or Halflings do by themselves.

-Username17

[Orca]

Warforged can be translated at the drop of a hat. War + Made; made for war. No problem.

Yeah, I do object to the names Tiefling and Eladrin being dropped into the core races. They don't mean much to me and less to anyone who wasn't already familiar with D&D. Demonblood or something like that would have been so much better as a name for tieflings IMO.

Kobolds really aren't important to the D&D settings I'm familiar with and have used. Also, when I'm talking to my friends about old adventures, we know what the other persons talking about when they mention the time Viktor's wizard cast burning hands on the kobolds on exactly the same initiative as the kobolds poured the boiling oil over him ... but my sister wouldn't. At least as far as what kobolds are and the extra humiliation of dying at the hands of one. As monsters, fine; as a core race, no.

Drow get to be called dark elves when you need clarity with people outside the hobby.

Finally, Jedi has made it far enough into the mainstream that people put it in the census forms as their religion and even my father gets the joke.

[Quantumboost]

O_o

So, you're opposed to giving things in the game which have names which are not publically known to the lowest common denominator any sort of emphasis, in total disregard to what people who actually play D&D actually like and want to play.

That shit is just not going to fly. Seriously, people give names to new things all the time. You only have to explain to someone of decent intelligence that Kobolds are "little lizardy people with ties to dragons" or that Tieflings are "people whose ancestors are demons" a few times before they get the gist. That's what, maybe 20 seconds out of your life? They might still refer to them as little lizardy guys or demonspawn or whatever, but they'll at least understand what you're talking about when you say the word.

I *like* the idea of including Githyanki/Githzerai, Tieflings, and Kobolds as primary character races. Because Dak'kon, and Annah, and Deekin, are all awesome, or in Deekin's case at least amusing, characters. Not including them after it's been mentioned had better have reasoning better than "someone who hasn't played D&D before and has never been exposed to it in any media form at all won't know what they are".