Wish Economy

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tzor
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Post by tzor »

MGuy wrote:Before this slips into an economic tangent I'd like to just pose this question: Players will invent ways to get whatever they want and nothing short of DM dickery will keep them from doing so. True/False?
The sad answer is "no." Players will attempt to invent ways to get whatever they want. Most attempts are so pathetic that even Magic Tea Party can't support it. (I mean I know it's "fantasy" but not "stupid.")

The only real question is how much cold water do you want to throw on stupid ideas from a DM's perspective.
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Post by MGuy »

K wrote:
MGuy wrote:Before this slips into an economic tangent I'd like to just pose this question: Players will invent ways to get whatever they want and nothing short of DM dickery will keep them from doing so. True/False?
You question is a strawman for the argument.

More accurately, it works like this:

Players have expectations for how they expect the world to work. They ask, "hey, why can't we just sell this thing we've taken, even if it's not traditional loot?"

When the DM responds by putting problem after problem in their way in defiance of reason and doesn't have the balls to just tell them "hey guys, the economic part of this game is woefully inadequate and I can't let you sell those things because it'll fuck the game," then that DM is a dick.

Passive-aggressively dealing with problems in your campaign is high dickery.
I disagree with your assessment that this is a strawman. The whole core of this argument seems to be whether or not players "get stuff". I mean that's the only part of the economic system anyone who interacts with it cares about. Whether players/NPCs can get X and when they can get it. As far as the rules are concerned they should support the DM directly saying "No" or make having X amount of gold or stuff not really matter in the grand scheme of things. If people are going to continue to argue whether its feasible for characters to make X million gold then they are essentially arguing whether or not PCs can get their hands on "stuff".

I agree that dickery is not a good solution which is why I made it a part of the question. Barring DM dickery players will exercise every ability in their power to acquire "stuff" as soon as the rules say they can specifically because stuff = power and a good chunk of players always want power.
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Post by DSMatticus »

MGuy wrote:Players will invent ways to get whatever they want and nothing short of DM dickery will keep them from doing so. True/False?
False. The game has rules and a setting, you don't 'invent' ways to get what you want, there are ways to get what you want and you find them. You can't just whine at your DM until you have a +10 sword. You have to come up with a way to get a +10 sword, and there are no obvious ways to do so within the parameters of the rules that don't involve appropriate amounts of danger or investment of high-level time.

But, it turns out it is trivially easy to find ways to get filthy, stinking rich, even at low-level. As a result, if magic items have values listed in gold prices, it's trivially easy to break WBL like a twig. And not by a little bit, by level 4-5 adventurers with full level 20 gear.

Solution? Decouple powerful magic items and wealth, and now it's still trivially easy to get filthy stinking rich, but that doesn't break the expected power levels of the PC's by more than a few levels. Then make a harder to acquire currency for powerful magic items, that can't be made by doing mundane, trivial tasks.
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Post by MGuy »

DSMatticus wrote:
MGuy wrote:Players will invent ways to get whatever they want and nothing short of DM dickery will keep them from doing so. True/False?
False. The game has rules and a setting, you don't 'invent' ways to get what you want, there are ways to get what you want and you find them. You can't just whine at your DM until you have a +10 sword. You have to come up with a way to get a +10 sword, and there are no obvious ways to do so within the parameters of the rules that don't involve appropriate amounts of danger or investment of high-level time.

But, it turns out it is trivially easy to find ways to get filthy, stinking rich, even at low-level. As a result, if magic items have values listed in gold prices, it's trivially easy to break WBL like a twig. And not by a little bit, by level 4-5 adventurers with full level 20 gear.

Solution? Decouple powerful magic items and wealth, and now it's still trivially easy to get filthy stinking rich, but that doesn't break the expected power levels of the PC's by more than a few levels. Then make a harder to acquire currency for powerful magic items, that can't be made by doing mundane, trivial tasks.
I'm... not understanding where you're disagreeing with the assertion at. Please point it out.
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Post by Swordslinger »

Spike wrote: Offering Thor 'Wish Economy Virgin Souls' for Mjolnir is exactly the same as offering Thor 'Big Piles of Gold' for Mjolnir. Even if 'Virgin Souls' are more valuable to him than gold, he's not going to give away that fucking hammer, so no economy really exists above a certain power level, no amount of wealth will allow you to buy yourself in, whether you measure your monies in shiny metals or exotic magic substances. How fucking hard is that to grasp?!
This is what I was saying before. The wish economy is a misnomer because it isn't an economy at all. There is no need for currency and trades only happen very rarely.

Planar currency wouldn't even exist at all. You may have deals where people trade magic items for combat services, but magic items are going to be the only thing people actually care about. And unfortunately there's really no need to trade up much for those, aside from saving XP in crafting because you can wish for infinite magical item crafting components.
Last edited by Swordslinger on Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Swordslinger wrote:This is what I was saying before. The wish economy is a misnomer because it isn't an economy at all. There is no need for currency and trades only happen very rarely.
This is stupid and you should feel stupid.

High level equipment pretty much needs to be traded through the intermediary of "currency" because the chances of finding someone who wants to directly trade whatever you have for whatever you want are pretty much nil. So you have to find someone who has what you want and find someone who wants what you have and then use the transfer of a valuable trade good from one of them to the other to facilitate the three-way transfer.

Turnip economy transactions don't need "currency", but Wish Economy transactions require a currency of some kind.

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Post by DSMatticus »

MGuy wrote:Players will invent ways to get whatever they want and nothing short of DM dickery
Response: Players can't invent ways, they have to find ways. If no such way can be found, DM dickery is not necessary.

And from there, I just pointed out it was easy to 'find ways' to make gold, but it's hard to 'find ways' to get +10 swords (unless you can buy them with gold).
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Post by Swordslinger »

FrankTrollman wrote: High level equipment pretty much needs to be traded through the intermediary of "currency" because the chances of finding someone who wants to directly trade whatever you have for whatever you want are pretty much nil. So you have to find someone who has what you want and find someone who wants what you have and then use the transfer of a valuable trade good from one of them to the other to facilitate the three-way transfer.

Turnip economy transactions don't need "currency", but Wish Economy transactions require a currency of some kind.
The problem is that these people are few and far between. Therefore the currency you use is different from the currency they use. Remember we're not talking about going over to the next city when you're looking for your axe of firedoom. We're not talking about going to another area ruled by the same king. We're talking about teleporting across the world or going to another world entirely.

The problem with currency is that if it's not a material of some kind, it's inherently useless and valueless except the value you actually give it, which has to be agreed upon by a population. Handing Julius Caeser US dollars would not mean anything to him.

The moment you pick up your soulcoins and go to a different plane, or even just across the globe, there's a very good chance that your coins will be worth as much as Confederate dollars and nobody wants to take them or even acknowledges them as a form of valid currency.

In the real world, there are tons of different currencies and that's on a single world. Imagine mixing infinite planes into all that and you can see the chaos that's going to come from that. Now, you're probably thinking you could have banks and moneychangers to handle that problem.. but here's the deal.

The main issue with the Wish Economy is that you're literally only ever trading for magic items. Structures, food, clothing, magic item production materials, sex and pretty much anything else you can think of can just be wished for. The only time you ever get a trade is when someone of high level ganks another guy of high level and happens to want to dump off the celestial breastplate he can't wear. And that's probably going to happen rather rarely. That's just not enough to support the idea of creating any kind of banking system to create exchange rates between these currencies, because trades (and therefore currency exchanges) don't happen nearly often enough to facilitate and support the security required for such a banking business.
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Post by fectin »

So basically, you want ant currency to be backed by at least one and possibly many things. Thats a fair interpretation.

XP might make sense as a high level currency then. I don't know how you'd trade it though. Maybe via soul jars?
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

Stuff that can be used as XP, possibly.
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Post by Swordslinger »

RadiantPhoenix wrote:Stuff that can be used as XP, possibly.
Does something like that exist in the rules? And if so, does it fall within the wishing range?
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Post by wotmaniac »

Swordslinger wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:Stuff that can be used as XP, possibly.
Does something like that exist in the rules? And if so, does it fall within the wishing range?
Liquid Pain, BoVD.
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Post by Blicero »

What I always saw as distinguishing Wishlevel currency (IE, Hope, Souls, etc) was that it could be used to create Wish+ level items. Which was made it so valuable.

If you give The Red Chieftain from the world of Blue the soul of Ser Angor Threshmaker from the world of Irrrr in exchange for his +5 axe, he won't have any clue who the fuck this kid is. But he won't care, because he'll know Ser Whatever had a hardcore enough soul to be able to be made into +7 armor. The currency is totally universal because it does have intrinsic, objective value and power.
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Post by Swordslinger »

wotmaniac wrote: Liquid Pain, BoVD.
Not familiar with the BoVD. What does it do? And is it cheap enough to wish for?
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Post by norms29 »

BoVD is the book that Liquid Pain is in.

it stands for Book of Vile Darkness
After all, when you climb Mt. Kon Foo Sing to fight Grand Master Hung Lo and prove that your "Squirrel Chases the Jam-Coated Tiger" style is better than his "Dead Cockroach Flails Legs" style, you unleash a bunch of your SCtJCT moves, not wait for him to launch DCFL attacks and then just sit there and parry all day. And you certainly don't, having been kicked about, then say "Well you served me shitty tea before our battle" and go home.
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Post by Swordslinger »

norms29 wrote:BoVD is the book that Liquid Pain is in.

it stands for Book of Vile Darkness
I knew that, but I don't have access to the book, so I was asking for a little clarification on it.
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Post by Maxus »

Blicero wrote:What I always saw as distinguishing Wishlevel currency (IE, Hope, Souls, etc) was that it could be used to create Wish+ level items. Which was made it so valuable.

The currency is totally universal because it does have intrinsic, objective value and power.
That's how I run it. You can't wish for it, but you can go and get some and use it--or trade it to someone who can turn it into something and swap you back.

One example I used -sort- of early level was a high-level crafter who wouldn't work for gold, but if you brought him a hundred pounds of adamantine, he'd use some of to make you a few pieces.
Last edited by Maxus on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by K »

Blicero wrote:What I always saw as distinguishing Wishlevel currency (IE, Hope, Souls, etc) was that it could be used to create Wish+ level items. Which was made it so valuable.

If you give The Red Chieftain from the world of Blue the soul of Ser Angor Threshmaker from the world of Irrrr in exchange for his +5 axe, he won't have any clue who the fuck this kid is. But he won't care, because he'll know Ser Whatever had a hardcore enough soul to be able to be made into +7 armor. The currency is totally universal because it does have intrinsic, objective value and power.
....and the Red Chieftain can give back change in some Chaos he gathered when the Slaad invaded his land.
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Post by fectin »

Swordslinger wrote:
norms29 wrote:BoVD is the book that Liquid Pain is in.

it stands for Book of Vile Darkness
I knew that, but I don't have access to the book, so I was asking for a little clarification on it.
Liquid pain (agony) is the product of a 4th level spell and torturing a dude. A unit of it is 3xp for creation, casting, and costs 200g. It's pretty reasonable to rule that you can't wish for it though (like all the other, similar xp equivalents), or just exclude it entirely in favor of souls.
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Post by Swordslinger »

fectin wrote: Liquid pain (agony) is the product of a 4th level spell and torturing a dude. A unit of it is 3xp for creation, casting, and costs 200g. It's pretty reasonable to rule that you can't wish for it though (like all the other, similar xp equivalents), or just exclude it entirely in favor of souls.
Well if it's got a cost of 200 gp, then you could wish for it. You could house rule it, but I thought the whole point of the Wish economy was hypothesizing what the economy (or lack thereof) would look like if you used the core rules.
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Post by talozin »

Swordslinger wrote: Well if it's got a cost of 200 gp, then you could wish for it. You could house rule it, but I thought the whole point of the Wish economy was hypothesizing what the economy (or lack thereof) would look like if you used the core rules.
In strict point of fact, the Wish economy is a result of edits made to Wish and monsters that grant Wish made in the Tomes.

The Wish and the Word are what the economy looks like if you use the core rules.
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Post by Swordslinger »

talozin wrote: In strict point of fact, the Wish economy is a result of edits made to Wish and monsters that grant Wish made in the Tomes.

The Wish and the Word are what the economy looks like if you use the core rules.
Well the point is though that none of those edits prevent it form creating magical items. So you could then create liquid pain with wish (because it's cost falls under 25k).

You can go creating more house rules, but that seems rather counterproductive, since then we're not talking about the same universe anymore, because the house rule changes the economy.

And really if you're going to get into house rules, why not just get rid of wishing for wealth entirely? Or just remove monsters abilities to grant free wishes. Is there any reason we really want to keep the wish economy?
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Swordslinger wrote:Is there any reason we really want to keep the wish economy?
Encouraging PCs not to strip the gold leaf off the walls of temples in the Lost City in order to get marginally closer to another plus to one of their swords seems a pretty laudable goal to me. I like having dragon hordes that take up multiple dungeon rooms without breaking the game.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Swordslinger wrote:And really if you're going to get into house rules, why not just get rid of wishing for wealth entirely? Or just remove monsters abilities to grant free wishes. Is there any reason we really want to keep the wish economy?
It's been said already. The ability for certain 'game-breaking' ways to generate wealth is just something that makes the symptoms of evident. They are the not the disease.

The disease is that letting gold = power means people will go to great lengths to get gold out of everything. And that has serious ramifications, because you are encouraging players to live like misers and loot everything not bolted down, then everything bolted down, and then probably the bolts, too. People want to be as super-badass as they can be, and magic items do that. This means that every copper spent on anything but magic items is making you less super-badass than you could be. This means everything you see but don't sell is making you less super-badass than you could be. As a mechanic, gold = power incentivizes players to loot the shit out of everything you put in their way. And this is supposed to be a fictional world that makes some vague amount of sense, so when a player comes up with a clever idea or makes a clever observation, you can't just say, "no, because I said so." Well, you can, but that's a failure of the system.

The wish economy doesn't really have anything to do with wish. Wish was changed to support it, but the wish economy is this and only this: magic items worth more than 15k in gold cannot be bought with gold. As a result, there is a point past which characters stop caring about looting every shiny thing they see.

Wish had to be changed to coincide with this (returned to its 3E state), because as it stands level 9 characters can just flat out have all the magical equipment they want, as powerful as they want. The 15K limit supports the wish economy (by making it impossible to cheaply manufacture powerful magic items using gimmicks), but it wasn't the reason for it.

But really, if you reward players for acquiring gold by giving them power, then they're going to acquire as much gold as possible. And that means they will tear apart everything you put in front of them, take it to the nearest ye olde magic shop, and convert it into bigger numbers. And that's just dumb, because it's boring, unthematic, unepic, and game-breaking. No one wants to tell stories about how the Great Knight Bob tore down the Legendary Castle of Diamond-Studded Gold Things to go and buy a Shiny Stick of Mega-Stabbing. And if Bob is level 7, having a Shiny Stick of Mega-Stabbing will break the game.
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Post by Swordslinger »

DSMatticus wrote: The disease is that letting gold = power means people will go to great lengths to get gold out of everything. And that has serious ramifications, because you are encouraging players to live like misers and loot everything not bolted down, then everything bolted down, and then probably the bolts, too. People want to be as super-badass as they can be, and magic items do that. This means that every copper spent on anything but magic items is making you less super-badass than you could be. This means everything you see but don't sell is making you less super-badass than you could be. As a mechanic, gold = power incentivizes players to loot the shit out of everything you put in their way. And this is supposed to be a fictional world that makes some vague amount of sense, so when a player comes up with a clever idea or makes a clever observation, you can't just say, "no, because I said so." Well, you can, but that's a failure of the system.
Because you can still buy/create components to make magic items with wealth, you can still damn well make whatever you want. The only one getting hosed in this whole deal is the fighter, because he can no longer buy anything. The wish economy makes magic item creation feats crazy powerful (because gold is no longer a limit) and screws anyone that can't make their own.

And of course then the solution becomes to create super currency, but at that point, why bother? Why not just set it up so the regular economy works?

As far as players trying to loot things they find, that's the point of the game. Making it so you can hand players massive treasure hoards of valueless crap is not the answer. As with any adventure design, you wouldn't hand out a 10,000 gp gem to first level adventurers. So why not just be careful what you put in your quests.

As far as setting scenery stuff, like chairs and crap, There's nothing really saying that tables, chairs and statues have to be all that expensive. As with most goods of artistic value, they tend to vary based on the economy. In times of peace, people tend to value art highly. In times of war, they'd rather have weapons. Given in D&D a monster could eat your face at any time, you could simply say that artistic stuff just isn't all that valuable.

It would be more similar to the economy in The Witcher, where armor and weapons are very expensive, but finding a diamond or an emerald only nets you a small profit.

About the only thing that you'd really run into is things that are actually made of gold, like a solid gold throne, but really, by the time you get to bad guys who can afford that stuff, that shouldn't be all that much money. If you're rich enough to make a chair composed of $100 bills, then you should have the defenses to match. By that time, the items you want should be costing you tens or hundreds of millions anyway, to the point that 50k throne doesn't really even show up as a huge profit (and really as a DM when you throw in a solid gold throne, you should expect your PCs to want to sell that).

So long as you maintain some verisimilitude in your world, you shouldn't run into the trouble of PCs grossly breaking the wealth system. I have to really wonder what kind of adventures you're running where the stuff you get off the walls is worth more than the actual treasure in the villain's lair. It's just not realistic that this guy is going to be spending all his money on really expensive furniture...

You can get people to buy luxuries by making them cheap enough. If you have 1 million gold, throwing down 5000 of it for a castle doesn't seem all that big of a deal and people will do that. The current problems with castles is that right now they're just too expensive.
Last edited by Swordslinger on Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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