Are Tabletop RPGs becoming more liberal?

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Are RPGs getting more liberal over time?

Yes
8
26%
No
23
74%
 
Total votes: 31

kzt
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Post by kzt »

K wrote: Sorry, but I don't accept unknown bloggers over the word of respected scientists.
Who are you referring to as the respected scientist?

Were you referring to the senior editor of The New Republic? Is his degree in English the mark of an expert scientist to you?

Perhaps you mean a guy with a PhD in Organic Chemistry and many years of actual experience in drug development? The kind of scientist who writes a drug development column in a Royal Society of Chemistry journal, is on the editorial board of ACS Chemistry Letters and on the advisory board for Chemical and Engineering News? Is that the kind of respected scientist is what you are looking for?

Or were you referring to a sociologist and an economist writing on the details of drug development who come up with numbers two orders of magnitude less than what every actual expert in the field of drug development comes up with? Is that the kind of expertise you require in order to consider them absolutely trustworthy and above reproach?
K
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Post by K »

kzt wrote:
K wrote: Sorry, but I don't accept unknown bloggers over the word of respected scientists.
Who are you referring to as the respected scientist?

Were you referring to the senior editor of The New Republic? Is his degree in English the mark of an expert scientist to you?

Perhaps you mean a guy with a PhD in Organic Chemistry and many years of actual experience in drug development? The kind of scientist who writes a drug development column in a Royal Society of Chemistry journal, is on the editorial board of ACS Chemistry Letters and on the advisory board for Chemical and Engineering News? Is that the kind of respected scientist is what you are looking for?

Or were you referring to a sociologist and an economist writing on the details of drug development who come up with numbers two orders of magnitude less than what every actual expert in the field of drug development comes up with? Is that the kind of expertise you require in order to consider them absolutely trustworthy and above reproach?
No, I'm referring to the Stanford scientist and the economist whose expertise and years of high-level experience is actually in the numbers side of health science. You know, the people who actually know about the business side of health care and are qualified to talk about it and not just a lab-jockey like your source.

Your lab-jockey admits he doesn't understand the financial side of running a drug business, somehow not realizing that this disqualifies his opinion on financial matters. He probably thinks that no one will call out his bullshit on the internet backwater where he blogs.

Got any more shitty sources? Maybe you can find a stock-broker's secretary to tell us about finance markets or a school crossing guard to tell about the economics of education? They do "work in the industry" and that is your basis for believing in your sources.

I mean, I'd be willing to give your source the benefit of the doubt if he had any coherent arguments, any insight, any examples from his own experience, or any sources to back up his opinion, but he clearly doesn't know the relevant details and he knows it. This is why he settles for vague arguments with no supporting data.
Last edited by K on Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Duke Flauros
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Post by Duke Flauros »

kzt, which is more important to you- human lives, or corporate profit?
Niao! =^.^=
Mike Mearls wrote:“In some ways, it was like we told people, ‘The right way to play guitar is to play thrash metal,’” “But there’s other ways to play guitar.” “D&D is like the wardrobe people go through to get to Narnia,” “If you walk through and there’s a McDonalds, it’s like —’this isn’t Narnia.’”
Tom Lapille wrote:"As we look ahead, we are striving for clarity in both flavor and mechanics.""Our goal with most of the D&D Next rules is that they get out of the way of the action as much as possible."
Mike Mearls wrote:"Look, no one at Wizards ever woke up one day and said 'Let's get rid of all of our fans and replace them.' That was never the intent."
ishy
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Post by ishy »

Duke Flauros wrote:kzt, which is more important to you- human lives, or corporate profit?
That is a pretty difficult question. I think I'm going to have to go with corporate profit. Because I feel that without any possiblity of profit things would stagnate and we wouldn't get any new technologies etc.
While humans will die anyway so in the long term their lives don't matter as much as making constant progress.
Though if you meant people can still profit, than human lives of course.

When approaching it from how our world currently works, I'd say we protect human lives as much as possible and still have corporate profit.
For the USA (as little as I know about it) I'd swing more to the human lives and less to the profits part I think though.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
andreww
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Post by andreww »

FrankTrollman wrote:And before you tell me it wouldn't work that way, allow me to remind you that in the United Kingdom it actually does. Retail space in game stores is primarily retail space in Games Workshop stores (who achieved their monopoly ironically by getting exclusive UK distribution rights for D&D back in the 70s). If Games Workshop doesn't want to give shelf space to their competitors, they just don't.
GW hasnt sold non GW products for about the last 20 years. Game distribution in the UK is through smaller outlets like Travelling Man, Forbidden Planet, Leisure Games etc.
sabs
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Post by sabs »

But the flipside DOES Happen in the US though.

Warhammer products are sold through gamesworkshops stores. You /can/ buy them from a hobby store, with some caviats. They won't have the new stuff for at least a week. If you special order something, expect it to take twice as long as if you special ordered it from a GW store.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

ishy wrote:Because I feel that without any possiblity of profit things would stagnate and we wouldn't get any new technologies etc.
Just to clarify, by 'profit' do you mean 'private reaping of excess productivity' or by 'profit' do you mean 'objective benchmark for the improvement of technological efficiency?'

I agree (hesitantly) with the second, strenuously disagree with the first. While the private profit incentive isn't always a negative, it both A.) often is anyway (google market failure) and B.) the things the human race are most proud of or dependent on rarely comes/came about due to pure private profit motive.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Voss
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Post by Voss »

sabs wrote:But the flipside DOES Happen in the US though.

Warhammer products are sold through gamesworkshops stores. You /can/ buy them from a hobby store, with some caviats. They won't have the new stuff for at least a week. If you special order something, expect it to take twice as long as if you special ordered it from a GW store.
That is true in Britain as well, despite GW's attempt to close some doors on Indie sellers and online sellers. Though the new stuff and special orders depend largely on the relationship a given store has with GW, and aren't really universal things. It is also heavily dependent on location- the closer you are to Tenessee (where the US factory is) or Baltimore (I think, not sure where the international shipping comes in anymore), you'll get things faster.

But in my experience, even stores out west usually get stuff in around the release date, unless they are screwing up or unless GW doesn't like them.

Special orders are a different issue entirely, due largely to the shift away from metal. Plastic kits are usually easy, 'finecast' resin is subject to some supply issues, and stuff that is still metal is a complete clusterfuck that can literally take months (which happened to me earlier this year). Considering an entire army is still stuck in metal despite the transition, this can be a major issue depending on what you want.
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Duke Flauros
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Post by Duke Flauros »

ishy wrote: That is a pretty difficult question. I think I'm going to have to go with corporate profit. Because I feel that without any possibility of profit things would stagnate and we wouldn't get any new technologies etc.
While humans will die anyway so in the long term their lives don't matter as much as making constant progress.
Though if you meant people can still profit, than human lives of course.
I'll agree with you that the life of any one man is less important than the progress of an entire civilization. But are corporate profits always equivalent to progress? (Marlboro, arms dealers, Enron)
ishy wrote: When approaching it from how our world currently works, I'd say we protect human lives as much as possible and still have corporate profit.
For the USA (as little as I know about it) I'd swing more to the human lives and less to the profits part I think though.
We certainly should be doing that.
Last edited by Duke Flauros on Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Niao! =^.^=
Mike Mearls wrote:“In some ways, it was like we told people, ‘The right way to play guitar is to play thrash metal,’” “But there’s other ways to play guitar.” “D&D is like the wardrobe people go through to get to Narnia,” “If you walk through and there’s a McDonalds, it’s like —’this isn’t Narnia.’”
Tom Lapille wrote:"As we look ahead, we are striving for clarity in both flavor and mechanics.""Our goal with most of the D&D Next rules is that they get out of the way of the action as much as possible."
Mike Mearls wrote:"Look, no one at Wizards ever woke up one day and said 'Let's get rid of all of our fans and replace them.' That was never the intent."
hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca »

infected slut princess wrote: Why is that? Well, markets are characterized by voluntary exchange –
No, they really aren't.

Markets are not special things that are somehow independent from all other forms of human interaction.

Violence and coercion are commodities, just like everything else. And just like everything else its bought and sold on the market.

We let democratic governments have monopolies on their legitimate use because, quite simply, they trade in the currency of the masses. They need our votes and they buy those votes by using violence in our best interests.

Businesses do not trade in the currency of the masses. Our votes are useless to them. Only our money matters. We are, ultimately, nothing but tools to businesses. We are a means to an end, that end being money. If they destroy us in the process of extracting value from us, then they have lost nothing. We are as ore to be processed, smelted down for green paper, round bits of metal, and electronic numbers in a computer at a bank somewhere.

You seem to be missing one simple fact. Violence doesn't just come from the barrel of a gun or the point of a spear or the edge of a sword. Violence done with a weapon is crude and ultimately less effective than violence done with the plow and the pen . Amateur warriors study tactics, processional soldiers study logistics. This is a truism that few people seem to grasp. Economic power, applied correctly, is inherently more coercive than military power ever has been.

It doesn't matter how much money you have if the grocery stores won't sell you food, you'll starve to death either way. There are such things as necessities. Some are basic things that every person needs, food, clothing, and shelter. Some are more complex but are just as necessary for modern quality of life.

The people who control these commodities hold absolute power of life and death over some number of people. If there is only one person that you can buy food from then you do what that person says or you starve to death.


And he's another thing. Human freedom has no intrinsic value. In fact, it's anti-value. Sure, your personal freedom has a huge amount of value to you, but most businesses would get far more out of you if you were a slave. And, unfortunately, there comes a point where you're materially better off as a slave than you would be if you were free.

A lot of people who try their hand at economics neglect game theory, with is an equally important study of human interactions and one that can provide insight into the workings of markets.

In game theory, there's a concept called a Nash Equilibrium. Nash equilibrium happens when no player can gain an advantage by changing his strategy. Once that happens, the end result is a foregone conclusion, baring random variables. No player will change their strategy because all of the lose worse if they do.

Nash Equilibrium in an unregulated market is the company store. Load sixteen tons and what do you get, another day older and deeper in debt.

One company monopolizes distribution of goods to its employees to the point where they are defacto slaves. It could be selling them $20,000 3D plasma televisions but is effectively only losing value to entropy because the company store model is a partially closed system. Value can come in from labor but it cannot leave. Of course, they won't be so generous. They'll provide just enough to get the maximum amount of value out of the worker. That amount is relative to the industry and the local conditions, but can be truly hellish for unskilled labor. Just as importantly or the people is that the business can and probably will enforce totalitarian control over its employees lives.

Unregulated markets tend towards anti-competitiveness. Vertical integration is an amazingly powerful tool for control, as Standard Oil learned and economies of scale mean that large companies are inherently more efficient than small ones, a fact which encourages horizontal integration.

The end result is like something out of a bad cyberpunk novel, with megacorps holding large swaths of humanity as virtual slaves.

And here's the third fact that people forget. Monkeyspheres are small. Businesses are run by people who are generally non-evil and don't want to oppress you, specifically. Its just that they really don't understand you or your plight at all because their monkeyspheres just aren't big enough. They do not empathize with your suffering because they are only vaguely aware of it at best. It's easy to order the extermination of all the Jews in Europe. Its a lot harder to actually shoot them yourself. But the guys calling the shots aren't out in the trenches. They aren't anywhere near the trenches. While they may understand that they're doing something immoral on an intellectual level, it just doesn't hit them in the gut because they have no emotional connection to it. So non-evil people will, in fact, do a fuckton of evil but virtue of lacking the proper perspective.


In other words, unregulated markets suck because they tend towards insane cyberpunk dystopias despite the best intentions of those calling the shots. .
Last edited by hyzmarca on Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Free market and capitalism have a tendency of being equivocated such that they mean the same thing, even though they're not. For example, modern-China is very much capitalist yet does not have free markets.

It's been going on for so long and is so widespread in our discourse that I don't even think that people who push the equivalency are doing it intentionally. Nonetheless, they're not the same and you confuse the two concepts at your own peril.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Well, back to the original purpose of the thread:

Remember the half-orc/orc? There's some genuine progress there. Remember how Realms of Arkania made them a bizarre Yellow Peril stereotype? Remember how the gully dwarf was a frankly disgusting allegory for eugenics? Remember how that rat bastard Andy Collins dumb bastard Richard Baker played up the black brute stereotype with 'half-orcs imply an ugly backstory?' Pathfinder doesn't even give them an intelligence penalty anymore and recent artwork in 4E D&D makes them downright sexy.

There's some progress there. Granted, it's progress in a 'welcome to the last decade of the 90s, jerkfaces', but hey.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
ishy
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Post by ishy »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Well, back to the original purpose of the thread:

Remember the half-orc/orc? There's some genuine progress there. (...) Remember how that rat bastard Andy Collins dumb bastard Richard Baker played up the black brute stereotype with 'half-orcs imply an ugly backstory?' Pathfinder doesn't even give them an intelligence penalty anymore (...)

There's some progress there. Granted, it's progress in a 'welcome to the last decade of the 90s, jerkfaces', but hey.
Orcs still have a penalty to all of their mental scores though.
And pathfinder has this to say about the half-orcs
As seen by civilized races, half-orcs are monstrosities, the result of perversion and violence—whether or not this is actually true. Half-orcs are rarely the result of loving unions (...)
Doesn't really feel like that much progress
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch »

Violence and coercion are commodities, just like everything else. And just like everything else its bought and sold on the market.
Yep. Not everyone in a cartel trades primarily in drugs; a big portion of such enterprises is made up of people who who provide coercion and violence sufficient to push into markets that are otherwise closed off by other coercive groups. Some of them are called governments and others are more traditional rivals.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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