A modest in-combat resource management scheme.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Having actually identical arrows appear on every chart entry seems lazy. Like you couldn't be bothered to think of more than one thing that fulfills a role.

-Username17

Well, that's sort of the point. Making Magnet/Glue/Rope/Suction Cup arrows just excuses the power designer from having to think of another arrow function when they all just do the same thing. If we made it so that Green Arrow always had rope arrows then the game designer would have to think of something else and Green Arrow would just use those arrows for their original purpose: climbing up buildings and making dramatic entrances through glass windows.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I guess what I'm trying to say what I don't like about Winds of Fate is that it impacts on characters trying to use their powers out of combat.

Like take Iroh for example. He's a firebender and can totally melt tanks and stuff. However, we also see himuse his bending to heat up his bathwater and make hot tea whenever he feels like it, too. If Iroh was on the Winds of Fate system then he couldn't do those things. He doesn't know if he's going to get enough fire to make kickass tea or burn his shop down.

Where I was trying to go with the arrow things was that Iroh and Green Arrow should have a baseline of powers that just establish what they can do. For example, while we may excitedly wait to see what kind of arrow he's going to use against Deathstroke, when there's a switch across a laser hallway he wants to shoot he's just going to shoot a regular arrow--there's no need to make it so that he's liable to shoot an explosive arrow or net arrow at it.

Like I said, this always-on power should be weaker than the one that you randomly get. There should be an established baseline of things you can do with it and wanting to go above and beyond that requires you to consult the Winds of Fate. Unless he's just taking down a trio of generic muggers, Green Arrow can't win a fight with just regular arrows but there's no need to deprive him of the ability to participate in some impromptu William Tell or sneak into Lex Luthor's building.

[NineInchNall]

Or you could have a bunch of effects that don't really matter in combat be always available. Fiery Tea Warmer would be an example of that.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Or you could have a bunch of effects that don't really matter in combat be always available. Fiery Tea Warmer would be an example of that.

Iroh doesn't have the ability of 'Fiery Tea Warmer'. He has the effect of 'shoot minor amounts of flame and/or heat from his body'. When you have someone who has the ability like this there's going to be someone wondering if you can use it in combat.

You can be extremely heavyhanded about it like D&D and declare 'NO! You can't use predestigation in combat! EVER!' or you can assume that your viewership has brains and won't choose 'Fiery Tea Warmer' over the 'Melt a Tank' ability.

[NineInchNall]

Or you could have a bunch of effects that don't really matter in combat be always available. Fiery Tea Warmer would be an example of that.

Iroh doesn't have the ability of 'Fiery Tea Warmer'. He has the effect of 'shoot minor amounts of flame and/or heat from his body'. When you have someone who has the ability like this there's going to be someone wondering if you can use it in combat.

I'm well aware that he doesn't have a specific ability called Fiery Tea Warmer. And that someone who wonders whether he can use the ability to shoot nonthreatening amounts of fire/heat in combat is a fucking moron.

Resource management is for meaningful abilities; which is why there's no rules-based limitation on a character's ability to Make Snotty Comment other than the action time required.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm well aware that he doesn't have a specific ability called Fiery Tea Warmer. And that someone who wonders whether he can use the ability to shoot nonthreatening amounts of fire/heat in combat is a fucking moron.

It's a roleplaying game. Someone is always going to wonder why their Avatar can't just use their meager firebending skill to set the bridge on fire rather than get into a protracted fight with their superior air and waterbending skill.

[TavishArtair]

stuff

You know this is all irrelevant because in the Winds of Fate setup you can use any power under your die roll as well as equal to, right? Which means if a power is rated at 1 it is useable automatically all the time without having to use higher powers. Which, honestly, sounds like what "being able to warm something" or "being able to shoot a regular arrow" would be at.

WoF is about altering your range of options from round to round, not entirely replacing the range.

[Lago PARANOIA]

You know this is all irrelevant because in the Winds of Fate setup you can use any power under your die roll as well as equal to, right? Which means if a power is rated at 1 it is useable automatically all the time without having to use higher powers. Which, honestly, sounds like what "being able to warm something" or "being able to shoot a regular arrow" would be at.

That's exactly what I'm trying to argue for.

I'm not (or wasn't) saying that WoF isn't unbalanced or boring, I'm just saying that it can be simulation breaking. If we make it so that Green Arrow always has access to his regular arrows and his arrows-on-a-rope but he never uses them in heated combat because even his plunger arrow is better then we have both the variety of combat and us never asking why Green Arrow is sometimes unable to try to shoot an arrow-on-a-rope to snag a fleeing helicoper.

WoF is about altering your range of options from round to round, not entirely replacing the range.

I thought that was obvious from what I was trying to argue for earlier, when one or two options out of a character's range randomly do a ton more damage.

I'm against WoF altering the range of options from round to round if the range suddenly expands to include 'Nuclear Arrow' and 'Kamehameha Arrow', but that's because I don't like supermoves.

I'm totally okay with WoF deciding that you get your choice of three arrows from Boxing Glove Arrow, Buzzsaw Arrow, Fire Arrow, Arrow-on-a-Rope, Chaff Arrow, Homing Arrow, Ice Arrow, and Tear Gas Arrow.

[Username17]

I'm against WoF altering the range of options from round to round if the range suddenly expands to include 'Nuclear Arrow' and 'Kamehameha Arrow', but that's because I don't like supermoves.

And yet, lots of people like super moves. And indeed a character who overperforms by 50% one round in 3 and underperforms by 25% on the remaining rounds is not only theoretically balanced, but also quite entertaining to play and fight against. While some people like playing the slow and steady plinking character (hell, there are fans for the Warlock class), there are other people who like being able to steal the spotlight from time to time. Conditional abilities have a lot of fans.

A lot of fans.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

And yet, lots of people like super moves. And indeed a character who overperforms by 50% one round in 3 and underperforms by 25% on the remaining rounds is not only theoretically balanced, but also quite entertaining to play and fight against. While some people like playing the slow and steady plinking character (hell, there are fans for the Warlock class), there are other people who like being able to steal the spotlight from time to time. Conditional abilities have a lot of fans.

A lot of fans.

-Username17

Well, then what's wrong with critical hits then?

[TavishArtair]

That's exactly what I'm trying to argue for.

I'm not (or wasn't) saying that WoF isn't unbalanced or boring, I'm just saying that it can be simulation breaking. If we make it so that Green Arrow always has access to his regular arrows and his arrows-on-a-rope but he never uses them in heated combat because even his plunger arrow is better then we have both the variety of combat and us never asking why Green Arrow is sometimes unable to try to shoot an arrow-on-a-rope to snag a fleeing helicoper.

I thought that was obvious from what I was trying to argue for earlier, when one or two options out of a character's range randomly do a ton more damage.

Que?

Winds of Fate was always suggested to work like that.

1- Regular Arrow, Arrow Winch
2- Boxing Arrow
3- Fire Arrow
4- Net Arrow
5- Arrow Storm
6- Nuclear Arrow

Round 1, Green Arrow rolls 3, he has access to Regular Arrow, Arrow Winch, Boxing Arrow, and Fire Arrow. He probably uses Fire Arrow if he needs to, well, set something on fire. Round 2, he rolls 1, and still has Regular Arrow and the Arrow Winch which he can rappel off of or something. Round 3, he rolls 6, and can go up to and including a nuclear blast, but if he doesn't need to ruin several city blocks, he might just throw a net arrow, especially if the badguy is almost done and needs to be captured instead of annihilated.

That's like on the first post of the first page of this thread.

[IGTN]

Well, then what's wrong with critical hits then?

How is it different when you get your superpower because you rolled really well on an attack roll instead of on a WoF roll?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Winds of Fate was always suggested to work like that.
...
That's like on the first post of the first page of this thread.

Some of Frank's later posts made it seem that the Winds of Fate would be a way to randomly select a set of abilities rather than a way to generate a subset.

Also, there should be truly amazing moves of rank 7 if the 'roll a 1, +1 next round' is used.

[IGTN]

Also, there should be truly amazing moves of rank 7 if the 'roll a 1, +1 next round' is used.

The problem with that is that those moves are likely to be used on round 1 of combat, since that bonus has to be given on the first round (otherwise people will game the system to make it asymmetric).

I could see an alternative where using a WoF 1 move on someone gave you a +1 bonus to your roll, but you had to target either them or yourself if you used that bonus: if you use a roll-1 move on a minotaur, and roll a 5 next round, you can use a roll-5 move on the gnolls standing next to the minotaur, a roll-6 move on the minotaur (which may also hit the gnolls), or a roll-6 move on yourself to power up for the next round. You start combat with a +1 bonus only for self-targeting moves. Of course, this might have the effect of encouraging people to power up for round 2.

But, then, if you can either power up and hit really hard in round 2, or strike first in round 1, then that's a tactical decision to be made, which might make the game more interesting, if there's actually a decision to make.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Round 1, Green Arrow rolls 3, he has access to Regular Arrow, Arrow Winch, Boxing Arrow, and Fire Arrow. He probably uses Fire Arrow if he needs to, well, set something on fire. Round 2, he rolls 1, and still has Regular Arrow and the Arrow Winch which he can rappel off of or something. Round 3, he rolls 6, and can go up to and including a nuclear blast, but if he doesn't need to ruin several city blocks, he might just throw a net arrow, especially if the badguy is almost done and needs to be captured instead of annihilated.

How is it different when you get your superpower because you rolled really well on an attack roll instead of on a WoF roll?

Why did I not care for the first proposal for WoF but I liked the 2nd one more? Simple. I don't like supermoves. And why don't I like supermoves?

Because it degrades the importance of other moves in your set.

I don't like making it feel like rolling set one should be a booby prize. I liked Frank's example set where you roll for a bunch of different arrow sets. The sets aren't inferior or superior to another but they DO require you to vary your tactics are try for something new.

There isn't such a thing as being gimped because you rolled poorly on one set of moves; that encourages the 'dragon on a strafing run' tactics too much. While certain movesets will be situationally better (like Green Arrow will want to roll for fire arrow when he's fighting a Martian Manhunter clone) they won't be generically better.

And if you combine that with critical hits, your boxing glove arrow can sometimes steal the show just as hard as your explosive arrow. With supermoves, explosive arrow is always better.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The problem with that is that those moves are likely to be used on round 1 of combat, since that bonus has to be given on the first round (otherwise people will game the system to make it asymmetric).

How? I mean, sure, in a single player party you have a fairly good chance of starting combat with the +1 if you can spring an ambush at any time you choose over 10 rounds, and assuming that there's not cost to readying moves. And then you have almost a 17% chance of opening with a super move.

However, as soon as get into a party of two there's less than a 2.8% chance that you'll both roll a 1 the same round. With a party of 6, it just isn't going to happen.

[IGTN]

Just because it'll be asymmetric within the party, too, if it happens on its own doesn't mean it won't happen.

If you just want to wait for one guy to get a 7, that's a 1-in-36 chance for any pair of rounds, for any person. A party of 6 willing to wait for six rounds seriously has a 6% chance of this not happening for someone ((35/36)^18); you get someone to open with their best move, right off the bat.

More importantly, the people you're attacking don't have this bonus; this feeds into the ambush paradigm of D&D.

If you either give the bonus only toward the target of your attack, or give the bonus automatically on the first round, then you're good.

[MfA]

There is only one first round in any single game As for giving it to your target ... there need not be any. You could throw up a wall of flame around a group of enemies or something.

Why not just give everyone the same roll in the same round?