[Pathfinder] More previews up

[Roy]

I was going to say something, but Frank already covered why splitting the cost for Awesome is a very good deal. And since it does last 10 minutes, and casting those spells takes at most 18 seconds you can totally spend round 1-3 doing that, round 4 jumping something, and the other 96 rounds doing whatever.

As for the Holy Word thing, straw man. I did not say its use was only limited to prepared ambushes. I said that if you are going that route, you might as well not waste it and therefore a 10 minute long boost in caster level is not necessarily limited to a single encounter and that basic scry and die was a way of reasonably ensuring you can fight more than one encounter within 10 minutes of game time.

Also, as I said I would choose to deal with the Gelugon in some other way. But if you are going the Holy Word route, that is how it would go down. And they very much have the incentive to do that, even more than they do for Magic Vestment and GMW because while those spells only ensure you can be this tall to play, Holy Word fucking kills people. So Wizard paratroopers in everyone, Cleric throws a bomb, and anything with a 1:1 ratio or close to it goes down. Of course there are a fair number of enemies that have more HD than that, but those can be taken out via other means, and +4 CL certainly does have other uses.

[Parthenon]

@Roy: Yeah, I get that Holy Word is just an example and that it can apply to a variety of methods of killing level appropriate monsters. Its just that you have a tendency that the longer a discussion goes on the more likely you are to push things into extreme statements such as those which imply an if and only if statement. e.g. the statement I quoted. And yeah, I misread you and thought you meant that karma beads cost 5,000gp total. Oops. Sorry.

Still curious about how the hell one can think 30,000gp for a +1CL is absurdly cheap though since its 700gp per day for twice that. But that doesn't really matter and I don't hugely care.

---

Back to the Paladin: opinions on changing the mount to the animal companion rules? Its no longer anywhere near as intelligent but much tougher. It does mean, however, that you can no longer get Gold Dragons as mounts which weakens Paladins potential hugely.

@Psychic Robot: Where have they said that PCs are of a CR of their level - 2? I'm curious because that sounds so retarded.

[Roy]

@Roy: Yeah, I get that Holy Word is just an example and that it can apply to a variety of methods of killing level appropriate monsters. Its just that you have a tendency that the longer a discussion goes on the more likely you are to push things into extreme statements such as those which imply an if and only if statement. e.g. the statement I quoted. And yeah, I misread you and thought you meant that karma beads cost 5,000gp total. Oops. Sorry.

Still curious about how the hell one can think 30,000gp for a +1CL is absurdly cheap though since its 700gp per day for twice that. But that doesn't really matter and I don't hugely care.

When did I actually say that? I mentioned the Karma Bead, the Ankh, and stated there were other things that boosted CL by lower amounts, and you can mix and match to get +5 or even +10 without too much difficulty.

Anyways, it's a Gelugon. Which means it's fairly tough at the level you fight it, and it can be nastier of played smart but it is hardly an example of 'Final Destination' where things get oversimplified down to only one thing of many. For that matter, it doesn't get normally simplified that far.

But all that is irrelevant, since the said and done take home point here is that Paizo's FCRWoG 13 cannot take one of these guys like... at all, despite it being her job to do so.

And it's a fucking dead horse by now. So let's shift to some different Paizil Fail eh?

[Psychic Robot]

1) As was already presented by Frank, Even if he doesn't keep it up all day, which he does, he still has all his buffs (aka, two of them) up.

2) Yes he spend 3 seconds and exactly zero physical effort every minute to keep Unholy Aura. Yes he thinks about flying every 10 minutes or so. Deal.

Bullshit, but we're not discussing that because it's just going to end up in a "NUH-UH!" "UH-HUH!" war.

Well, since Persistent Illusion is a purely mental standard action. I'd start off by creating an image of a Balor, then when he blows his Smite on that (how does the smite even fucking work if the Paladin designates a non-Valid target?) and maybe casts some buff spells, and I keep hiding and laughing. Maybe after he's caught on to the whole, Images of Demons thing I encase him in an Icewall that is not a Hemisphere, so that he has to waste his boots flight. Then I start spamming More Images of Walls and shit, just to drive him batty. Them Images of Angels shooting at the walls to make him think some divine beings are helping him, then some Devils.

I'm pretty sure detect evil nixes the entire plan of images. They won't show up as registering evil, which means that the paladin will realize they're fake.

The paladin can also break the wall of ice, and his boots of crappitude have three uses per day.

Oh yeah, and then I show up an Full attack the crap out of him once he stops attacking images. Then Teleport out and Image spam some more.

The paladin will, at this point, realize that the images aren't real. And you can full attack if you'd like, but you're going to spend a standard action teleporting, which means that you're going to end up in range of the paladin a round before you can full attack.

Of course, that's being nice, because at some point I'll just break out the Cone of Colds from behind Illusory walls of Ice and Ice Storms on his ass. But only after phase, fuck with Paladin till he casts half his spells, uses all his smites, and doesn't know what's real.

Why is the paladin wasting his spells on illusions? I mean, he could cast dispel magic, but I'm doubting that he will. And we don't know how wasting smites is dealt with.

Furthermore, this just assumes that the paladin has equipment that is "derp derp derp combat smashy." Shit, what if the paladin has a ring of invisibility? I'd slip it on at the first sight of illusionary stupidity and walk away.

[Username17]

I'm pretty sure detect evil nixes the entire plan of images. They won't show up as registering evil, which means that the paladin will realize they're fake.

If a Paladin wants to spend 3 rounds concentrating to determine whether or not he should use a smite while he is in the middle of a raging fight with a Gelugon and its summoned minions, be my guest. Tell me how that worked out.

Furthermore, this just assumes that the paladin has equipment that is "derp derp derp combat smashy." Shit, what if the paladin has a ring of invisibility? I'd slip it on at the first sight of illusionary stupidity and walk away.

Wait. I thought we were talking about the Paizo published fucking Paladin. If you're going to talk about Paladins who could actually win then you could jolly well make a Paladin who rides around on a Dragon and is a lancing pouncasaur who had a reasonable chance of getting the first attack in and just plain winning on the first round of combat. That's certainly something you can do, although it's an incredible pain in the ass and it's very one-dimensional.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

If a Paladin wants to spend 3 rounds concentrating to determine whether or not he should use a smite while he is in the middle of a raging fight with a Gelugon and its summoned minions, be my guest. Tell me how that worked out.

Paladin can detect faster now, and it only takes round to detect the presence of evil anyhow. And if the gelugon starts attacking, the illusion plan is nixed.

Wait. I thought we were talking about the Paizo published fucking Paladin.

No, because the Paizo iconics suck. That'd be like taking Valeros and expecting him not to die to a level 1 orc wizard.

[Kaelik]

I'm pretty sure detect evil nixes the entire plan of images. They won't show up as registering evil, which means that the paladin will realize they're fake.

I'm pretty sure people don't waste actual combat rounds detecting evil when this shit teleports in to great them.

The paladin can also break the wall of ice, and his boots of crappitude have three uses per day.

Can he break the entire wall in less than a standard action? Cause that's what he would have to do to break them faster than they show up.

And so what about the boots. I'm doing the entire fight except for one joke punch without him ever seeing me.

The paladin will, at this point, realize that the images aren't real. And you can full attack if you'd like, but you're going to spend a standard action teleporting, which means that you're going to end up in range of the paladin a round before you can full attack.

The Paladin doesn't automatically pierce all the illusions when I attack him. This isn't invisibility.

Why is the paladin wasting his spells on illusions? I mean, he could cast dispel magic, but I'm doubting that he will. And we don't know how wasting smites is dealt with.

Well since like six posters described how the Paladin will buff up before closing to fight with the Ice Devil, I assumed he'd buff up at some point.

Furthermore, this just assumes that the paladin has equipment that is "derp derp derp combat smashy." Shit, what if the paladin has a ring of invisibility? I'd slip it on at the first sight of illusionary stupidity and walk away.

Well since 95% of level 13 Paladins don't have the ring of invisibility, and the ones that do would be breaking their code, because they would not be "punish[ing] those who harm or threaten innocents." I'm okay with that. In the mean time, yes you could also be a Paladin who dipped to get UMD as a class skill and have a damn high UMD bonus to use staffs and shit, but that's still not a melee Paladin, the type who sucks.

Also, remember who we declared it unfair for the Ice Devil to teleport away. Yeah. But I guess it's okay for a Demon Hunter to just run away like a coward whenever he has to fight actual Demons.

[Psychic Robot]

I'm pretty sure people don't waste actual combat rounds detecting evil when this shit teleports in to great them.

After he smacks it once and nothing happens, he will.

Can he break the entire wall in less than a standard action? Cause that's what he would have to do to break them faster than they show up.

So you're spamming wall of ice. Congratulations on not hurting the paladin. At all.

And so what about the boots. I'm doing the entire fight except for one joke punch without him ever seeing me.

He can fly over the wall?

The Paladin doesn't automatically pierce all the illusions when I attack him. This isn't invisibility.

You're right, but he'll realize that the gelugon stabbing him is more real than the balors that are masturbating in the corner.

Well since like six posters described how the Paladin will buff up before closing to fight with the Ice Devil, I assumed he'd buff up at some point.

I'd only assume holy sword.

Well since 95% of level 13 Paladins don't have the ring of invisibility, and the ones that do would be breaking their code, because they would not be "punish[ing] those who harm or threaten innocents." I'm okay with that. In the mean time, yes you could also be a Paladin who dipped to get UMD as a class skill and have a damn high UMD bonus to use staffs and shit, but that's still not a melee Paladin, the type who sucks.

Don't need to get UMD as a class skill in Pathfinder. I was going to suggest that, but I figured it would be lame, given that you're not really using your class features to do something. And your legalistic interpretation of the paladin's code is the kind of thinking that leads to the Lawful Stupid paladins. If the paladin can't win a fight at all, I don't think he's bound by his code to stay there and play "find the non-illusion."

Also, remember who we declared it unfair for the Ice Devil to teleport away. Yeah. But I guess it's okay for a Demon Hunter to just run away like a coward whenever he has to fight actual Demons.

Yes, because the fight would be moot. So I guess you're right in that the paladin should finish what is started. He slips on the ring and now the gelugon is like, "Lolwut?"

[Kaelik]

After he smacks it once and nothing happens, he will.

Good, that means he'll waste a round detecting evil on any enemies and not using Smite Evil after I trick him into blowing his first smite.

So you're spamming wall of ice. Congratulations on not hurting the paladin. At all.

Congratulations on being retarded. He can take several round to break a 5ft chunk, I can create hundreds of 5ft chunks in a single standard action, and then while he's breaking them, I can use Cone of Cold and Ice Storm.

He can fly over the wall?

So he wastes a standard action and two move actions going over a wall. Or he get's encased in a hemisphere. Or he wastes his flight and then gets encased. Even more fun.

He'd still wasting resources not hurting me at all while I grind him down and without wasting any resources.

You're right, but he'll realize that the gelugon stabbing him is more real than the balors that are masturbating in the corner.

Well, except that I can attack him from behind the illusion of a balor. Wow, sucks to be him.

But great, he figures out that it's an Ice Devil he's fighting. All the better, since now he won't bother to defend himself against the Bone Devils that grapple and pin him.

I'd only assume holy sword.

Okay, then my Bone Devils pin and eat him after I bamboozle him.

And your legalistic interpretation of the paladin's code is the kind of thinking that leads to the Lawful Stupid paladins. If the paladin can't win a fight at all, I don't think he's bound by his code to stay there and play "find the non-illusion."

My legalistic interpretation is a joke, but it does represent how I can torture baby seals right in front of him and his only option is to run away and be a failed Paladin.

Yes, because the fight would be moot. So I guess you're right in that the paladin should finish what is started. He slips on the ring and now the gelugon is like, "Lolwut?"

You mean the Gelugon uses his +25 Listen (Perception) check to locate an approximate area, and then uses Ice Storm or Cone of Cold from behind his sexy illusions. Sweet are attacks from invulnerability. Meanwhile the Paladin now can't actually risk interacting with any of the various devils running around that might be illusions, because doing so breaks his invis that he spent 25,000gp on the ability to hide.

But it's okay, because every 7 rounds he has to shout out a command word to stay invisible, giving me a fix on his location even better than when I detect him moving with my listen.

[Psychic Robot]

Good, that means he'll waste a round detecting evil on any enemies and not using Smite Evil after I trick him into blowing his first smite.

Uh...yes. But then your illusions are done for.

So he wastes a standard action and two move actions going over a wall. Or he get's encased in a hemisphere. Or he wastes his flight and then gets encased. Even more fun.

If he's encased in a hemisphere, you can't hurt him. I mean, you can trap him, and teleport in and attack, but you'll be within stabbing range.

He'd still wasting resources not hurting me at all while I grind him down and without wasting any resources.

That's true.

Well, except that I can attack him from behind the illusion of a balor. Wow, sucks to be him.

So the paladin is still standing next to the illusion...why?

But great, he figures out that it's an Ice Devil he's fighting. All the better, since now he won't bother to defend himself against the Bone Devils that grapple and pin him.

Except you and I both know that's bullshit. Yes, the ability to conjure bone devils is indeed part of the gelugon's abilities. However, once you have that gelugon summon a bunch of CR 9 monsters, the EL is increased. So now you're going to freak out and say, "SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT THE PALADIN CAN WIN IF THE GELUGON DOESN'T USE ANY OF HIS ABILITIES? LOLOLOL."

To some degree, yes. When the equal CR monster summons in a group of flying invisible monsters, you've increased the EL. That would be appropriate for a party to fight, not for a lone paladin. And yes, the broken classes can win, and we've established why: they're broken.

At this point, I suppose you can claim victory because yes, the gelugon automatically wins if you increase the EL. Just like how the balor can summon another balor to help him out.

My legalistic interpretation is a joke, but it does represent how I can torture baby seals right in front of him and his only option is to run away and be a failed Paladin.

Your point is made. Though, at this point, the only thing I'm seeing is that the gelugon is too strong because of his illusion spells.

You mean the Gelugon uses his +25 Listen (Perception) check to locate an approximate area, and then uses Ice Storm or Cone of Cold from behind his sexy illusions. Sweet are attacks from invulnerability. Meanwhile the Paladin now can't actually risk interacting with any of the various devils running around that might be illusions, because doing so breaks his invis that he spent 25,000gp on the ability to hide.

But it's okay, because every 7 rounds he has to shout out a command word to stay invisible, giving me a fix on his location even better than when I detect him moving with my listen.

Ring of invisibility lasts three minutes, and the paladin can have a decent Stealth modifier in Pathfinder. He can also use detect evil to lolspy.

EDIT: At this point, I think we can safely say that there are two main problems with the gelugon at this point.

1. Teleportation. Anyone without dimension anchor stands a good chance of not killing the demon.

2. Illusions. Anyone who can't see through them stands a good chance of being screwed.

3. Summoning. It doesn't work like it should.

Which means that pretty much any non-caster will lose against the gelugon, even the flask rogue.

[DMReckless]

What party anyway? We were soloing here, weren't we?

[TarkisFlux]

PR, you really should know better. Tags yo.

[Edit] Yeah, like that. Thanks!

[Kaelik]

Uh...yes. But then your illusions are done for.

No, then my Illusions still serve the purpose of wasting all his standard actions and obscuring his vision and discouraging him from attacking anything that is real because he'll think it's fake.

If he's encased in a hemisphere, you can't hurt him. I mean, you can trap him, and teleport in and attack, but you'll be within stabbing range.

If I make an Ice Storm and then encase him, I can hurt him. If I make a hemisphere, then use the several actions he spends trying to get out to create 10-15 overlapping illusions of various types, then I can hurt him as soon as he gets out from complete safety.

So the paladin is still standing next to the illusion...why?

Because every square foot within the cavern/dungeon/200ft is adjacent to an illusion.

Except you and I both know that's bullshit. Yes, the ability to conjure bone devils is indeed part of the gelugon's abilities. However, once you have that gelugon summon a bunch of CR 9 monsters, the EL is increased. So now you're going to freak out and say, "SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT THE PALADIN CAN WIN IF THE GELUGON DOESN'T USE ANY OF HIS ABILITIES? LOLOLOL."

To some degree, yes. When the equal CR monster summons in a group of flying invisible monsters, you've increased the EL. That would be appropriate for a party to fight, not for a lone paladin. And yes, the broken classes can win, and we've established why: they're broken.

At this point, I suppose you can claim victory because yes, the gelugon automatically wins if you increase the EL. Just like how the balor can summon another balor to help him out.

This is frankly hilarious. Demon and Devil Summons are calculated as part of their CR. Just like when a fucking Cleric cast's animate dead he doesn't magically become a higher level character. Built into CR.

And what the fuck, did you not read anything ever? The broken classes aren't broken. They are good. They are up to CR standards. That's not broken. That useful. The Paladin is the broken class.

Ring of invisibility lasts three minutes, and the paladin can have a decent Stealth modifier in Pathfinder. He can also use detect evil to lolspy.

He can spend a standard action to identify my current location if he selects the correct 60ft arc and I am within 60ft of him. Yea, that's going to help him exactly never.

EDIT: At this point, I think we can safely say that there are two main problems with the gelugon at this point.

1. Teleportation. Anyone without dimension anchor stands a good chance of not killing the demon.

2. Illusions. Anyone who can't see through them stands a good chance of being screwed.

3. Summoning. It doesn't work like it should.

Which means that pretty much any non-caster will lose against the gelugon, even the flask rogue.

The Rogue can win, via hiding + Sneak attack + evasion to escape most attacks + UMD + he might have pierce magical concealment.

He actually get's to start off the fight, and he can hide, unlike the Paladin.

The Problems with the Ice Devil are:

You have to be a good character to beat it. Which means being able to deal with illusions at level 13 (since you also had to deal with them at level 8 against the Aboleth), being able to deal with someone who can teleport away and come back, and being able to one shot something like this, instead of needing 6 consecutive full attacks to kill it.

[Psychic Robot]

No, then my Illusions still serve the purpose of wasting all his standard actions and obscuring his vision and discouraging him from attacking anything that is real because he'll think it's fake.

But he'll be able to tell which things are real because they're radiating evil.

If I make an Ice Storm and then encase him, I can hurt him. If I make a hemisphere, then use the several actions he spends trying to get out to create 10-15 overlapping illusions of various types, then I can hurt him as soon as he gets out from complete safety.

You can't encircle the paladin with wall of ice. If you cast the spell several times, you can, but not with a single casting.

Because every square foot within the cavern/dungeon/200ft is adjacent to an illusion.

How are you doing that in a single standard action, exactly?

This is frankly hilarious. Demon and Devil Summons are calculated as part of their CR. Just like when a fucking Cleric cast's animate dead he doesn't magically become a higher level character. Built into CR.

What CR is a balor when it doesn't summon another balor? And you're right, the cleric doesn't become higher level. He does, however, become significantly more powerful. And you would adjust the EL he would present against the PCs accordingly.

Just like if you had a naked level 20 fighter, you wouldn't call him CR 20 because he wouldn't be anywhere near as powerful as he would be with his items.

And what the fuck, did you not read anything ever? The broken classes aren't broken. They are good. They are up to CR standards. That's not broken. That useful. The Paladin is the broken class.

When they can solo monster of a CR higher than them, then they are broken. But the whole CR system is a mess, anyhow.

He can spend a standard action to identify my current location if he selects the correct 60ft arc and I am within 60ft of him. Yea, that's going to help him exactly never.

Then you're at a stalemate with the paladin.

The Rogue can win, via hiding + Sneak attack + evasion to escape most attacks + UMD + he might have pierce magical concealment.

He actually get's to start off the fight, and he can hide, unlike the Paladin.

You clearly aren't understanding how skill points in Pathfinder work. The paladin can most certainly hide and use UMD. The rogue, of course, faces all the same problems that the paladin does--illusions, getting trapped in hemisphere of ice, and so on.

The Problems with the Ice Devil are:

You have to be a good character to beat it. Which means being able to deal with illusions at level 13 (since you also had to deal with them at level 8 against the Aboleth), being able to deal with someone who can teleport away and come back, and being able to one shot something like this, instead of needing 6 consecutive full attacks to kill it.

Being able to one-shot an equal-CR monster is not a balanced ability.

[Quantumboost]

No, then my Illusions still serve the purpose of wasting all his standard actions and obscuring his vision and discouraging him from attacking anything that is real because he'll think it's fake.

But he'll be able to tell which things are real because they're radiating evil.

Using her detect evil SLA takes a move action. That means that she has one action in which to actually do anything to the Gelugon. Since it is using wall + kiting tactics, it is presumably keeping out of standard-action charge range the majority of the time. What with having an Int of 22 and not 4.

If I make an Ice Storm and then encase him, I can hurt him. If I make a hemisphere, then use the several actions he spends trying to get out to create 10-15 overlapping illusions of various types, then I can hurt him as soon as he gets out from complete safety.

You can't encircle the paladin with wall of ice. If you cast the spell several times, you can, but not with a single casting.

Unless they've made drastic changes, yadda yadda...
"The wall takes the form of a hemisphere whose maximum radius is 3 feet + 1 foot per caster level. The hemisphere is as hard to break through as the ice plane form, but it does not deal damage to those who go through a breach." The paladin is a human, it is not 17 feet tall, it is fully encompassed by the hemisphere.

Because every square foot within the cavern/dungeon/200ft is adjacent to an illusion.

How are you doing that in a single standard action, exactly?

Irrelevant, due to stalling tactics due to the ice hemisphere described above.

This is frankly hilarious. Demon and Devil Summons are calculated as part of their CR. Just like when a fucking Cleric cast's animate dead he doesn't magically become a higher level character. Built into CR.

What CR is a balor when it doesn't summon another balor? And you're right, the cleric doesn't become higher level. He does, however, become significantly more powerful. And you would adjust the EL he would present against the PCs accordingly.

Just like if you had a naked level 20 fighter, you wouldn't call him CR 20 because he wouldn't be anywhere near as powerful as he would be with his items.

This is irrelevant and mistaken. Summoning is an action that gives certain benefits, specifically another balor's abilities and actions sans summoning, and is factored into his CR. If the balor doesn't summon another, this is a tactical distinction, not a matter of one vs. two CR20 monsters in an encounter. You can argue that the CR is wrong, but it doesn't change because the balor chooses or does not choose to summon.

You don't adjust the EL of the cleric because he used a summon spell for the same reason you don't adjust his EL for casting implosion. Casting a summon spell takes an action and gives you specific benefits, which are an inherent part of "being a cleric". So does casting implosion. If you're adjusting the cleric's EL for every time it casts a spell... I feel sorry for you.

Having or not having equipment changes the fighter's CR specifically and only because having or not having equipment changes a character's CR. It has nothing to do with abilities like summon or spellcasting.

And what the fuck, did you not read anything ever? The broken classes aren't broken. They are good. They are up to CR standards. That's not broken. That useful. The Paladin is the broken class.

When they can solo monster of a CR higher than them, then they are broken. But the whole CR system is a mess, anyhow.

Being able to solo a monster of a CR higher than them is not brokenness. You are actually arguing that a single level 17 wizard should never be able to win against a single level 18 wizard here (since the second is CR 18, and 18 > 17). That is a bad thing.

He can spend a standard action to identify my current location if he selects the correct 60ft arc and I am within 60ft of him. Yea, that's going to help him exactly never.

Then you're at a stalemate with the paladin.

Ice storm can be used to hit the paladin from further than 60 feet. It's not a stalemate when one person is sniping and the other is trapped in place with their head in plain sight without a gun (which is the actual scenario being described here).

The Problems with the Ice Devil are:
You have to be a good character to beat it. Which means being able to deal with illusions at level 13 (since you also had to deal with them at level 8 against the Aboleth), being able to deal with someone who can teleport away and come back, and being able to one shot something like this, instead of needing 6 consecutive full attacks to kill it.

Being able to one-shot an equal-CR monster is not a balanced ability.

Flesh to stone, finger of death, and baleful polymorph are unbalanced at any and all levels? Good to know.[/sarcasm]

[Starmaker]

Being able to solo a monster of a CR higher than them is not brokenness.

Exactly. Given that mid-to-high level combat is rocket launcher tag anyway, being able to one-shot a particular monster is nothing to write home about. A character is overpowered if he consistently wins against the majority of monsters of an appropriate CR.

That is, to evaluate the failadin we would have needed to match her up with an assortment of monsters and tally up victories and defeats... but since the ice devil is the monster this failadin is supposed to have the highest chance to win against, there's no need to.

[Leress]

After looking at the other creatures that are CR 13. This paladin doesn't really stand a chance.

Storm Giant: beats him down (in the off chance the fight even happens)
Iron Golem: The paladin can't really hurt the golem at all.
glabrezu: The paladin okay, but would most likely lose
Cyro and Pyro hydra: Doesn't do enough damage to really negate the healing.

[Roy]

Well, the entire board has just lost the privilege of whining at me when I smite something or someone, because they're still going on about the fucking Failadin vs Ice Devil instead of changing subjects already.

[Kaelik]

Wow Quantumboost. I feel entirely redundant. Guess I'll go play Far Cry.

EDIT: Actually, I do have a non-redundant point.

PR, I have no idea what the skill system does that magically allows Paladins to have all class skills. I seriously doubt they gave everyone all skills as class skills.

But so far, your hypothetical Paladin:

1) Has a Ring of Invisibility.

2) Has max ranks in MS, Light Armor, high Dex.

3) Has max ranks in UMD.

4) Uses absolutely zero Paladin class features.

You argument appears to be that things with Rings of Invisibility and Max Hide + High Dex can just run away from everything, or hide nearby and hope something happens.

That's a bad argument. Especially since the only reason the Ice Devil didn't rape the Paladin in melee is because he's got Full plate + multiple buff spells + Str focus in the original math. If he doesn't have full plate + buffs, he can't even beat the Ice Devil in melee if he does find him.

[Username17]

Wait. I thought we were talking about the Paizo published fucking Paladin.

No, because the Paizo iconics suck. That'd be like taking Valeros and expecting him not to die to a level 1 orc wizard.

Then what the fuck are you talking about?

Seriously, we all agree that it is possible to make a 13th level character who can sometimes win against a Gelugon. Also, Jason's Pathfinder revisions are specifically intended to make that more difficult. And while we haven't actually seen the final Paladin rules, it appears that some of the very few Paladin builds that had a chance n basic 3.5 rules have been nerfed out of existence in exchange for frankly minor powers that are very definitely insufficient to best their standard opponents.

So seriously, if you aren't talking about Seelah the Paladin, what the fucking hell are you talking about?

-Username17

[Parthenon]

So I'm wondering (a.k.a. trying hard to change the subject) about what the Pathfinder team actually do? According to the Q and A sessions on the blog it seems to be made up of 9 people, only two of which are Jason Bulmahn and Sean K Reynolds. What have the others actually done and how are they involved in creating Pathfinder?

Unless they are forum mods or something like that they will be involved in creating stuff. And they already don't include interns. I can see one cartographer, one artist and one inker, but the other 4 need jobs. And they can't be the playtesters because otherwise they only have about 4 playtesters for whole adventure paths. Which would mean that only one party went through the campaign.

Ideas? Or am I looking too hard at this?

[angelfromanotherpin]

After looking at the other creatures that are CR 13. This paladin doesn't really stand a chance.

Storm Giant: beats him down (in the off chance the fight even happens)
Iron Golem: The paladin can't really hurt the golem at all.
glabrezu: The paladin okay, but would most likely lose
Cyro and Pyro hydra: Doesn't do enough damage to really negate the healing.

I have no faith that Seelah could beat CR 11 opposition. Does she have any meaningful chance to beat an Elder Air Elemental? Or a 12-headed Hydra? Or even the Hill Giant Dire Wereboar nonsense? If the enemy isn't evil, what CR does she really contribute at?

[Roy]

So I'm wondering (a.k.a. trying hard to change the subject) about what the Pathfinder team actually do? According to the Q and A sessions on the blog it seems to be made up of 9 people, only two of which are Jason Bulmahn and Sean K Reynolds. What have the others actually done and how are they involved in creating Pathfinder?

Unless they are forum mods or something like that they will be involved in creating stuff. And they already don't include interns. I can see one cartographer, one artist and one inker, but the other 4 need jobs. And they can't be the playtesters because otherwise they only have about 4 playtesters for whole adventure paths. Which would mean that only one party went through the campaign.

Ideas? Or am I looking too hard at this?

Well, I know Josh has nothing better to do than to ban people for discussing legitimate concerns about the game while threatening them in a passive aggressive manner. So Frost is right out productivity wise.

What were their names again?

[TarkisFlux]

Kaelik, the Pathfinder change to skills is as follows (if memory serves, it's been months since I cared):

All skills are bought at 1 rank per skill point.
The maximum rank for everyone is your character level.
If you buy a skill with skill points from a class for which it is a class skill, you get a +3 bonus to that skill.

So the only difference between a class skill and a cross class skill is some bullshit 3 points, and it's possible for the paladin to have a decent stealth and UMD or whatever else they might want.

[DMReckless]

After looking at the other creatures that are CR 13. This paladin doesn't really stand a chance.

Storm Giant: beats him down (in the off chance the fight even happens)

No argument there.

Iron Golem: The paladin can't really hurt the golem at all.

Actually, all the Seelah has to do is use her Divine Bond to make the weapon a +5 Flaming Defending Longsword. The +4 or better weapons ignore DR/Adamantine in PF. She’s doing roughly 23 dpr, 38 if she ups the ante and uses her Mithral Full Plate of Speed. Meanwhile, the IG is doing 37 to her and she is healing 22 as a swift action each round. She probably wins in 3-6 rounds.

glabrezu: The paladin okay, but would most likely lose

No, I think its at-will spell like abilities will own her quite thoroughly. All it has to do is keep itself at range, throw up some mirror images and Chaos Hammer/Unholy Blight her to death. Her best bet, meanwhile is all about the slim possibility of engaging it in melee for a couple of rounds.

Cyro and Pyro hydra: Doesn't do enough damage to really negate the healing.

Not much hope against the Pyrohydra.

Against the Cryohydra, She can go with the +3 Keen Flaming Burst Defending Longsword. She can use the sword’s full defense to pump her up to a 30 AC, and using the haste function of her armor brings it to 31. Calculating the PH’s CMD at 29 BAB12+6Str+1Dex+10), Seelah needs an 8 or better to Sunder a head. So she should be doing enough damage to sever the heads each time she Sunders (up to 4 times per round with the haste Function), and the Flaming properties have a 2 in 6 chance of sealing the necks. Since she is built to Sunder, this is a better option for her than trying to get through its fast healing. She actually stands a chance. Remember she also has the equivelant of Fast Healing 22 for 12 rounds.

I have no faith that Seelah could beat CR 11 opposition. Does she have any meaningful chance to beat an Elder Air Elemental?

No, she doesn’t.

Or a 12-headed Hydra?

Possibly. Same tactics as Cryohydra, above.

Or even the Hill Giant Dire Wereboar nonsense? If the enemy isn't evil, what CR does she really contribute at?

Sure. Her weapon is going to bypass his DR as is(+3 or better weapon bypasses DR/Silver), she can heal most of the damage he does every round, she doesn’t ever really miss it, etc. Yeah, she’ll kick this one’s ass.