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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:48 am
by fbmf
[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Crissa, this is the second time that I have had to tell you to stop whining about your socio-political agenda and get back to topic. The next time I will not ask.
Everyone else: You all know damn good and well what will set Crissa off. Do not provoke tirades. I am sick of them.
[/TGFBS]
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:02 am
by Crissa
Where's your posts telling Kaelik not to attack newbies without bothering to bring in actual refutations? Or telling of For Valor for both trolling and lying in my thread you locked? You're here an hour late and a dollar short.
I didn't post anything in here that wasn't preceded by several off-topic posts of someone else. Picking me out for special treatment is a cop-out.
I can handle idiots being idiots. I don't need you to 'protect' the boards by protecting them from being assholes to me.
-Crissa
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:17 am
by Psychic Robot
To get us back on track, I'm just going to start quoting people from the Paizo boards.
The RAW does work, just because a problem can be pointed at here and there doesn't prove that all of it doesn't work. Plus going back to the part of my previous post you quoted, if you see that something does not work, you are free to fix it so that it does for you and your group. No one has to wait for designers to get around to figuring out a fix. No one has to like a "fix" the designers do, you only have to do what works for your group.
While I am sure you have seen examples where individuals have used single cases of obscure gaming histpry to support your statement, I find the majority of the naysayers of the maths models are drawing on years of experience across hundreds of games.
This is not one instance of the maths not being true, but possibly thousands of instances dependent upon the number of times particular actions occur within each game and how many posters are citing their gaming experience. When the experimental data differs signifiocantly from the theoretical outcome, then the theorists have missed something. At that point they need to listen too, and maybe go back to change their model to account for this. I don't often see that happen in these threads unfortunately. If it did, I'd probably pay more attention to the mathemeticians.
Remember that all probabilties are merely hypotheses for an outcome. When your hypothesis is wrong, you need to find out why and try again.
Blind faith in raw numbers is just as dangerous as blind faith in experience alone. Ask the guys who built the mars pathfinder where their faith in numbers is now.
Every day, it seems, there is a new thread questioning the mechanics of the game. And what's worse? It seems that the authors of these threads want Paizo to fix what THEY perceive as broken. Every time I read one of these threads, it first makes me mad, but it gives me even more faith in the products themselves. This happen to anyone else?
At last I truly see. Emphasis mine.
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:11 am
by DMReckless
Psychic Robot wrote:
Every day, it seems, there is a new thread questioning the mechanics of the game. And what's worse? It seems that the authors of these threads want Paizo to fix what THEY perceive as broken. Every time I read one of these threads, it first makes me mad, but it gives me even more faith in the products themselves. This happen to anyone else?
At last I truly see. Emphasis mine.
Do you? Truly?
Because
I get the irritation many Denians have over the lost potential of Pathfinder. I truly do. I empathize and sometimes even sympathize with this anger and frustration. I get that it feels like
trying to actually make
the flock turn from their beliefs to understand science.
And believe me, as the Pathfinder crowd grows, there will be more faith vs. math arguments, leading to more
and even quite a few
threads.
But, as long as people are buying what Paizo is selling in numbers that make Paizo a
successful company by their own standards then nothing a bunch of malcontent posters are going to effect in the game itself(in any major way.) And this is because Lisa Stevens and Vic Wertz are actually pretty competent business people, and know what appeals to
their audience because they interact with them and encourage their employees to do the same. Compared to many other companies, this experience inspires loyalty. And loyalty often supercedes logic.
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:35 am
by TOZ
Kind of like how people complain about bias in the news. News stations and papers are not required to tell the truth. So they tell their readers what the readers want to hear, or they don't sell papers/get ratings, and fucking go out of business. If you're going to Fox/CNN/whatever for honest reporting, you're fucking deluding yourself.
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:58 am
by TOZ
Had to share this gem.
K wrote:Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster.
Since you can return them to normal size by tossing them, you can drop rains of boulders by emptying bags onto a cutting board
Object =/= solid surface.
K wrote: or your other hand
Creature =/= solid surface.
Yes, objects don't count as solid surfaces in Paizoland.
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:01 am
by Zinegata
Just a reminder of my original argument to the statement: "Paizo is taking away people who could be playing Tome!"
That's not true. People play Pathfinder because Pathfinder gives them something they want, while Tome does not. If Pathfinder doesn't exist they will not automatically play Tome. They will just make up their own game where the Monk still sucks.
It's ultimately about human preferences. Not system "superiority".
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:10 am
by Blasted
Stop trolling. This thread was never about moving people to tome. The only person to make a statement anything like "Paizo is taking away people who could be playing Tome!" was you.
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:30 am
by Zinegata
Blasted wrote:Stop trolling. This thread was never about moving people to tome. The only person to make a statement anything like "Paizo is taking away people who could be playing Tome!" was you.
Tadaa....
DragonChild wrote:Pathfinder does impact me - my friends, who aren't quite as rules savvy like it. And try to get me to play it, over 3.5, or HERO, or 4e, or some other, superior system. And I have to choose to fight with them over the system (not a good idea), not play with my friends, or play a system I think is shitty.
Double Tadaa
Crissa wrote:Also, if I don't want to play Pathfinder because it is crappy, then it is actively reducing the people I can play D&D with as some people become invested in the system.
To be fair, you can switch "Tome" with "Any other system than Pathfinder though. But as I said, that was my
original answer.
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:53 am
by For Valor
oh, I do love Paizo.
I never thought it was this bad, though.
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:50 am
by TOZ
And finally, the lack of errata content and FAQs so far is kinda disheartening. It feels as if your not supporting your product. You make the books, fix a couple of typos and then move on. The mechanics groups I play with have the APG. My more causal players do not...because I don´t allow it yet. Because I can´t trust the rules you guys have written...and with the core book getting such little support, I´m probably not gonna allow the APG until I play test it for another couple of months...assuming I allow it at all. I should not have to playtest the book for months to compile my own errata before I can allow casual players to play with it.
Fixing things so insane rules lawyers won't abuse them is not support. That is heroic effort above and beyond the call of duty. You're asking, actually demanding now, things to be clarified far past a reasonable level, for free, because you think there's a problem, even if no one else does. That's a little unreasonable, don't you think?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:01 pm
by DragonChild
Is that from a designer? Honestly, if they're not actually from designers, I don't give a shit and am pretty sure that it violates the old rules... but if it IS from a designer, just wow.
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:20 pm
by RobbyPants
The thing is, you don't need to be a rules lawyer to accidentally stumble across something overpowered. The fact that a bad rule exists is what makes a problem.
Sure, min-maxers may be the bane of designers everywhere, but they aren't the only ones exploiting poorly thought out rules.
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:43 pm
by Roy
TOZ wrote:Had to share this gem.
K wrote:
Since you can return them to normal size by tossing them, you can drop rains of boulders by emptying bags onto a cutting board
Object =/= solid surface.
K wrote: or your other hand
Creature =/= solid surface.
Yes, objects don't count as solid surfaces in Paizoland.
So in other words, when you play a game in Paizilland your character's first action is to float off into space. Because see, you're not standing on a solid surface. With gravity.
...That's actually pretty fucking awesome. +1 to them for making a Genius Bonus way of saying 'Don't play Pathfinder, get a real game'.
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:09 pm
by Red_Rob
RobbyPants wrote:The thing is, you don't need to be a rules lawyer to accidentally stumble across something overpowered. The fact that a bad rule exists is what makes a problem.
Sure, min-maxers may be the bane of designers everywhere, but they aren't the only ones exploiting poorly thought out rules.
My brothers first ever 3.5 character is a Druid. After reading through the rules once he rang me to say "hey, it looks like I can Wild Shape into a bear and then Alter Self back into myself and keep all the crazy stat bonuses! Sweet!"
It took one player one read through to realise the rules were broken as hell. :S
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:25 am
by TOZ
Cloud Step wrote:
Your tread is of unearthly lightness.
Prerequisites: Spider Step, monk level 12th.
Benefit: As a move action, you can air walk (as the spell)
up to half your slow fall distance. You must reach a solid,
level surface by the end of your turn or you will fall.
So, what's half of infinity?
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:15 am
by For Valor
lolololololol
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:26 am
by Maxus
TOZ wrote:Cloud Step wrote:
Your tread is of unearthly lightness.
Prerequisites: Spider Step, monk level 12th.
Benefit: As a move action, you can air walk (as the spell)
up to half your slow fall distance. You must reach a solid,
level surface by the end of your turn or you will fall.
So, what's half of infinity?
Okay, gotta know that one.
Did they remove a limit on Slow Fall?
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:32 am
by Prak
slow fall is progressive, somewhere in the higher levels you have no limit on distance, just the usual "wall within reach" clause, iirc. even in 3.5
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:37 am
by Koumei
At level 20 they can slow-fall any distance without harm. So at level 20 it's limitless, and thus at level 20 this feat lets them air-walk to anywhere on the same plane as a Move action.
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:41 am
by Prak
...um... yay for them? They finally found a way to effectively run away in D&D.
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:14 am
by Maxus
Prak_Anima wrote:...um... yay for them? They finally found a way to effectively run away in D&D.
Sadly, that combo's actually pretty awesome. And almost certainly unintentional.
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:27 pm
by Roy
So now Monks can... run away, and erase themselves from existence. Wow. The Paizils are trolling us hardcore.
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:04 pm
by TOZ
They can also turn into cockroaches.
Immortality wrote: At 20th level, a monk of the four
winds no longer ages. He remains in his current age
category forever. Even if the monk comes to a violent
end, he spontaneously reincarnates (as the spell) 24 hours
later in a place of his choosing within 20 miles of the
place he died. The monk must have visited the place in
which he returns back to life at least once. This ability
replaces perfect self.
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:25 pm
by virgil
Maxus wrote:Prak_Anima wrote:...um... yay for them? They finally found a way to effectively run away in D&D.
Sadly, that combo's actually pretty awesome. And almost certainly unintentional.
It gets better. From everything I could find on their campaign setting, Golarion, all of the planes are actually in the same physical dimension. James has gone on record stating that
teleport and its ilk actually only have a intra-planetary range, which is why it takes epic-magic to teleport to the Mars expy. He's explicity stated that the cosmology permits one to physically fly from the setting's prime world to the Abyss if given an unreasonable amount of time.
Therefore, in said setting, the monk also has
planeshift.