Monte Cook IS working on 5th edition...

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Post by Swordslinger »

ModelCitizen wrote: If you're talking about bursts affecting the environment in 4e, as far as I know it doesn't matter whether you say creatures in burst or enemies in burst. All that matters is whether you say objects in burst. (And not even that, really. Most parts of the terrain aren't objects if you want to get rules-lawyery about it.)
I wasn't talking about 4E so much as just a generic game setup. 4E is set up kind of stupid in that spells only damage objects by DM discretion. I was just saying that you can tell if a spell should damage object by both the type of damage it deals and what targets it affects.

By default I think spells should assume to be big bursts that affect everything. If it specifically excludes creatures or objects, then the description should mention that. Otherwise the default is that fireball burns all shit in its area.
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Post by ModelCitizen »

Swordslinger wrote: I wasn't talking about 4E so much as just a generic game setup. 4E is set up kind of stupid in that spells only damage objects by DM discretion. I was just saying that you can tell if a spell should damage object by both the type of damage it deals and what targets it affects.
Ah ok. It sounded like the logic behind the cleric AoE errata or something. But yeah, writing a general-case rule to determine if a spell affacts the environment makes sense.
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Post by hogarth »

New column is up:
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx ... l/20111108

TL; DR version: What if every single fucking subsystem was optional, so that one person could be playing Microlite d20 and one person could be playing super-bells-and-whistles-with-fifty-splatbooks d20 and we would call it all 5E?

Ugh. Doesn't that just fragment the game and make it impossible to write products that appeal to both Mr. Microlite and Mr. Bells-And-Whistles?
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Post by Fuchs »

hogarth wrote:New column is up:
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx ... l/20111108

TL; DR version: What if every single fucking subsystem was optional, so that one person could be playing Microlite d20 and one person could be playing super-bells-and-whistles-with-fifty-splatbooks d20 and we would call it all 5E?

Ugh. Doesn't that just fragment the game and make it impossible to write products that appeal to both Mr. Microlite and Mr. Bells-And-Whistles?
I assume adventures would be left to third party, and WotC would focus on splat books, hoping the microlite guys would pick some feats or other stuff from each book while the tre audience is the bell's and whistles.
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Post by OgreBattle »

hogarth wrote: Ugh. Doesn't that just fragment the game and make it impossible to write products that appeal to both Mr. Microlite and Mr. Bells-And-Whistles?
and the most popular edition of D&D was played just like that.
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Post by hogarth »

OgreBattle wrote:
hogarth wrote: Ugh. Doesn't that just fragment the game and make it impossible to write products that appeal to both Mr. Microlite and Mr. Bells-And-Whistles?
and the most popular edition of D&D was played just like that.
No. Just about everything in the core rulebook(s) was assumed to be the base for 3.5E (with a handful of minor exceptions). So if I'm writing a splatbook or a game module and I restrict my references to the core rulebook(s), I can assume that my potential audience of customers is the entire universe of 3.5E players.

Now suppose magic was an optional subsystem in the core rulebook(s). Whom do I write for? Magic-less 3.5E players or magic-using 3.5E players? Or a mix of both, which will make neither happy? No matter what I write, one of those subsets will be disappointed.
Last edited by hogarth on Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Fuchs »

As before - add enough from all areas in every book so odds are, something will appeal to anyone.
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Post by tussock »

Yeh. The game already has a mechanic for optional complexity. It's called Character Classes.

The current designers just think everyone at the table has to agree to using the same complexity and difficulty settings, and no one could possibly want to play an old-school hard-mode complex strategically-planned Wizard while some other dude plays a Fighter with 2+ for saves and attacks that can just go all day and not care.
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Post by Fuchs »

tussock wrote:Yeh. The game already has a mechanic for optional complexity. It's called Character Classes.

The current designers just think everyone at the table has to agree to using the same complexity and difficulty settings, and no one could possibly want to play an old-school hard-mode complex strategically-planned Wizard while some other dude plays a Fighter with 2+ for saves and attacks that can just go all day and not care.
Since when are wizards hard mode? Usually you go by the CharOps boards, grab your build, and you're set.
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Post by hogarth »

Fuchs wrote:As before - add enough from all areas in every book so odds are, something will appeal to anyone.
Awesome! So I add a little incarnum, a little psionics, a little truenaming...

:roll: There's a reason that 4E's "everything is Core" idea is meaningless garbage.
Last edited by hogarth on Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by virgil »

Fuchs wrote:Since when are wizards hard mode? Usually you go by the CharOps boards, grab your build, and you're set.
Wizards suffer from analysis/option paralysis more often than the easy-mode classes. You can choose new spells each day, and good wizards actually change them. Personally, I found the CharOp builds to be 'meh' most of the time, only good for an idea to cobble into my own. I'd use tactics and selections not even mentioned on the CharOp boards, because I analyzed the spells on my own for possible ideas, and accepted less than MAXIMUM results (less than Roy or ShadowBalls expect, but still leaps better than a fighter, which is good enough) while not building my entire character around the plan.
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Post by Fuchs »

hogarth wrote:
Fuchs wrote:As before - add enough from all areas in every book so odds are, something will appeal to anyone.
Awesome! So I add a little incarnum, a little psionics, a little truenaming...

:roll: There's a reason that 4E's "everything is Core" idea is meaningless garbage.
Yeah, but it sells books. More people will likely buy "adventurer's guide I" with stuff for every class, especially if power creep is working, than "Wizard's guide".
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Post by hogarth »

Fuchs wrote:Yeah, but it sells books.
Does it? I was under the impression that "Martial/Arcane/Whatever Power N" would sell strictly fewer copies than "Martial/Arcane/Whatever Power N-1". And I was under the impression that, even late in the game, Clerics and Rangers were still getting more new support than Invokers and Runepriests. I could be wrong, of course; I'm not a 4E expert.

At any rate, I would have thought that the #1 lesson from the TSR era would have been this:

It doesn't matter whether your "core" games like BECMI D&D, AD&D, Birthright, etc. are 80%+ compatible; you're still fragmenting your target market and people will still ask "where's the support for my favourite core game?".
Last edited by hogarth on Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

How is this new? Mearls wrote like 5 columns on this same subject.
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Post by hogarth »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:How is this new? Mearls wrote like 5 columns on this same subject.
It was a bad idea when Mearls suggested it as well.

Come to think of it, I think (almost?) all of Monte's columns so far have been rehashing topics that Mr. Mearls covered earlier.
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Post by Leper »

Either rehashing Mike's topics or "hey look at this idea I just invented! (that's already in the system) We could call it (the same thing the system calls it). Isn't this an awesome idea!? Aren't I a great designer? Did you miss me guys? Didja?!"
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Post by Stubbazubba »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:How is this new? Mearls wrote like 5 columns on this same subject.
And this is his 6th. The author is, in fact, Mike Mearls this week. I don't know why he's back (maybe Monte has a cold?), but more importantly I don't know why he's trying to re-introduce this idea he's already been talking about in this very column for so long.
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Post by Chamomile »

Stubba, you seem to be assuming that Mearls actually wants to enlighten and inform people about interesting mechanical ideas with his column, seeing as how that's the only motivation where repetition will do him wrong. What on earth makes you think this is what Mearls is after?
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Post by Stubbazubba »

Cham, even if his motivation was just to spout deepisms and philosophize about game design in order to generate a naive fanboi following in a vain effort to prove to WotC that he's worth his salary, I don't think recycling said deepisms after only three months and, more importantly, pretending that they're new is going to help him build said base. But, I could be grossly overestimating the mental acuity of his potential followers.
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Post by hogarth »

Stubbazubba wrote:And this is his 6th. The author is, in fact, Mike Mearls this week.
Heh...didn't notice that.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

What hogarth said.

Although the fanbois on EnWorld will eat up anything he says.
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Post by shadzar »

Mearls wrote:You don't want to just declare that your character used to be the cook from the king's court, you wanted the skill bonus to back up that claim. If D&D is going to quantify combat prowess, it should quantify noncombat actions, if not as well, at least to some degree. A valid expectation.
No cocksucker i do NOT want some skill bonus, because i dont even want a skill system to begin with.

the reason D&D quantifies combat is because it is something ALL must agree on how to resolve. it unifies all games when that cleric couldn't use a "battleaxe".

yes, after 6 articles you are in love with skill-systems. the problem is they dont help. the character becomes just a thing on the sheet to track with such things as opposed to a person in the world that the player experiences through that character.

How many ranks of "underwater basket weaving" do you want Mearls?

There is no way to make a working economy for the game that everyone will agree upon, because the game cannot design every town for every game. every NPC wont be some part in a larger overall machine that works based on some formula. this right here, as proven by WBL, means you cant really have a skill system either as most of the skills deal with the economy.

cooking is what people do when they are hungry or want money. you dont need even a simple skill system to cook food in the game because everyone should already be able to cook something to eat. special bonuses to health and such are what magic is for, not some masterful cooked meal that thinks it is magical and restores more health. just make it a meal created by magic.

still does Mearls know what D&D is about?
Mearls wrote:the key words there really are "for that game."
the problem is that many people dont sit down with beer and pretzels and just want to play a game, they want an emersive world, but not a simulationist one. they want SoD and verisimilitude, not just something "for the game".

number in the real world dont have to make sense "for the game" so AC used to be lower numbers are better. in the game it still works because the numbers cannot be seen.

healing surges are "for the game", but the problem is that when playing the game, they dont make sense to people and are innate magical means to heal.

you cant do this "for the game", you need to make sure the game is "for the players", and remember that skills or other subsystems have to be able to work on the broad scale and not remove people "from the game". when those subsystems cannot be made sense of, you have done something wrong. when the function doesnt work "in the game" when played, you have done something wrong.
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Post by tzor »

I'm not going to comment. This clearly isn't the thread to say "that's a nice idea." Not that any of them can actually implement it but I don't think an onion layered approach on character creation is in and of itself a bad thing if done in a balanced manner.
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Post by ModelCitizen »

Stubbazubba wrote: And this is his 6th. The author is, in fact, Mike Mearls this week. I don't know why he's back (maybe Monte has a cold?), but more importantly I don't know why he's trying to re-introduce this idea he's already been talking about in this very column for so long.
The column's credited to Monte Cook, unless you're suggesting that Mearls killed him and posted this wearing a Monte Cook skinsuit.

I predict this idea will collapse like a Jenga tower when they have to write a Monster Manual. The monsters would have to interact with N optional rulesets in 2^N possible combinations and screw that. If nothing else, skills need to be core so that monsters and spells can have well-defined interactions with skills like Stealth.
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Post by Daztur »

I don't think this is as hard to make work as most people in this thread are making it out to be. Although they're not really to my taste 4ed Core and Essentials mix OK and back before 3ed you could take some basic D&D stuff and mix and match stuff from 1ed or 2ed with it just fine. I played for years like that, if you design the system around having a basic starter box and then having advanced stuff that adds on to it then it shouldn't be that hard to make it workable.
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