Hm...actually, I think I might be able to do (b).DSMatticus wrote:Well, the argument revolves around whether or not "levels in a spellcasting class" is a term used to refer to a unique property distinct from both caster levels and class levels, or if it is an ambiguous plain English description that can mean either "levels in a class which grants spellcasting" (class levels) or "the level at which you cast your class's spells" (caster levels) depending on context.
In the first case, your spells known, spells per day, and caster levels are a function of your levels in a spellcasting class, and then modified by any other features you might have. Your levels in a spellcasting class are, in turn, a function of your class levels and any other abilities you might have which grant levels in a spellcasting class (such as the second level of eldritch knight).
In the second case, caster levels are a function of your class levels, and then modified by any other features you might have (such as the second level of eldritch knight, or an orange ioun stone). Also spells per day are a function of your class levels, and then modified by any other features you might have (such as the second level of eldritch knight, or a pearl of power). Also spells known are a function of your class levels, and then modified by any other features you might have (such as the second level of eldritch knight, or the feat extra spell). Everything is a function of class levels.
...
The challenge is to either a) find some or all of these terms explicitly defined in a way that shuts everyone up, or b) find an example where these two systems lead to different results, and then to assess which result is intended, and then to assess whether or not that could reasonably be the author's fuckup (this conversation starts with the sublime chord and the ur-priest, we do regrettably have to consider that the authors of any given portion have no idea what the fuck they are doing - splats are not sacrosanct. Certain kinds of examples would be incredibly damning, others would be easily and rightly dismissed).
For purposes of this thought-experiment, let's pretend that the Wizard class grants actual class features in addition to spellcasting. Specifically, Wizard 1 grants an ability called "Alpha", Wizard 2 grants "Beta", and Wizard 3 grants "Gamma". It doesn't matter what these abilities do, only that they are separate abilities, unrelated to each other or to spellcasting, and are not granted by other classes. (I could presumably talk about save bonuses or something instead of new abilities and end up making the same point, but I think this will be clearer.)
For simplicity, I'm also going to presume a prestige class called "Prestige" that advances spellcasting of a previous class (in the typical way, whatever that is) and whose prereqs can be met by a level 1 Wizard.
The Example: Bob begins life as a level 1 Wizard. At level 2, he switches to the Prestige class. At level 3, he switches back to Wizard.
Theory A: Prestige advances something called "spellcasting level", which is its own variable, distinct from class level or caster level. "Spellcasting level" can be advanced by either the Wizard class or the Prestige class, and your spells known, spells per day, and caster level in Wizard are actually calculated from your "spellcasting level", not your class level.
Result: Bob casts spells exactly as well as someone who took 3 straight levels of Wizard, but he does not have the Gamma ability. He still has the Alpha and Beta abilities.
I think everyone here agrees that is the intended result, whether they agree with how we got there or not.
Theory B: Prestige gives you an actual class level in Wizard, EXCEPT that you miss out on most of the usual benefits. You still get spells known, spells per day, and caster level like normal, but you MISS the hit die, saves, and everything else not explicitly mentioned in the Prestige class.
Result: At level 2, when Bob takes a class level in Prestige, he has the same casting as a level 2 Wizard, but does not get the "Beta" class ability. At level 3, when he switches back to Wizard, he technically already has 2 class levels in Wizard, so he is taking Wizard 3. He now has exactly the same spellcasting as someone who took 3 straight levels of Wizard, and he has the "Gamma" ability from Wizard 3, but he does not have (and can never get) the "Beta" ability from Wizard 2.
Theory C: Prestige does not grant you a class level in Wizard, but it instantaneously grants you the additional spells known, spells per day, and caster level (but nothing else) that you would gain if you had gained a class level in Wizard instead.
Result: At level 2, Bob gains extra 0th- and 1st-level spell slots for his Wizard spellcasting feature, learns 2 new Wizard spells of 1st level or lower, and gains +1 Wizard caster level (all as if he had taken Wizard 2, even though he didn't). At level 3, when Bob switches back to the Wizard class, he is taking Wizard 2, and therefore gains the Beta ability, the normal hit dice and saves for Wizard 2...and the normal spellcasting for Wizard 2. He therefore cannot cast 2nd-level spells, because Wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until class level 3, and nothing has has taken has ever granted him the spellcasting of a level 3 Wizard. (Bob might or might not have more 0th- and 1st-level spell slots than a straight Wizard 2, depending on whether Wizard 2 sets your spell slots to row 2 of the table or increases them by the difference between row 1 and row 2.)
Theory D: Prestige grants you +1 caster level in Wizard, and no separate benefits; any other benefits you get are a result of that caster level increase. But, we stipulate that caster level always affects your spells per day and spells known.
Result: Exactly the same as Theory A, except that now if Bob picks up an orange ioun stone he immediately gains new spell slots and learns new spells (and then forgets those spells if he drops the orange ioun stone), because caster level always increases those things and orange ioun stones have no restricting language preventing it from doing so.
Theory E: Prestige grants you +1 caster level in Wizard, and no separate benefits; any other benefits you get are a result of that caster level increase. Further, we stipulate that spells per day and spells known are based on your class level and are not (normally) affected by your caster level.
Result: At level 2, when Bob gains a class level in Prestige, he does not gain any spells per day or spells known in Wizard, because the only thing he's gaining in Wizard is a caster level, and caster levels do not affect spells per day or spells known. Yes, the Prestige class text might specifically tells you to recalculate your spells per day and spells known, and I guess that would matter if you had an ability from some other source that caused those things to vary depending on your caster level (in which case said ability would presumably also apply to orange ioun stones), but since we don't have any such abililty, the recalculation is the same as the original calculation, because none of the relevant variables have changed.
If you change this theory to say "caster levels don't affect spells per day or spells known, but Prestige explicitly grants you those things separately and in addition to granting you a caster level increase", that's just Theory C again.
To summarize: I'm guessing that everyone in this thread wants Bob to gain the spellcasting of a level 3 Wizard but the other class features of a level 2 Wizard when he gains his third character level. The only way that works is if there exists some spellcasting track that has its own level separate from Wizard class levels.
Notice that I am not basing this argument on any particular rule that says this third thing exists. I'm merely observing that there appear to be 3 quantities (level of Wizard spellcasting features, level of other Wizard class features, and caster level in Wizard) that can all vary independently of each other. Either some two of those must actually be the same thing (which means they cannot vary independently), or you do, as a matter of fact, have 3 separate variables (no matter what language is ultimately used to describe them).
