The Gaming Den

SSSHHH, don't tell the crazy religious leaders and Paladins, or they will execute you for "consorting with Evil!"

PhoneLobster at [unixtime wrote:1184231206[/unixtime]]The Drow bother me.

For many reasons.

Ideniifying evil elves by them being black is just the tip of the iceberg on those guys.

Being a Lovecraft fan I see Drow as falling very well into the idea of a ancient advanced culture fallen into decadence. As for them being black, it really wasn't something that registered when I saw them for the first time in the Fiend Folio. I don't recall if they were actually described as black-skinned, but as a subterranian (sp) offshoot of elves, I always thought of them as sickly pale, an impression that made me see the old FF illustration for them not as literally black-skinned, but as having pale skin that was hard to represent in B&W art with no greys (a deliberate conceit on my part, I know).

As years went by and it sank in that Drow were originally supposed to be black skinned, I chose to reject that detail and make them unusually pale elves with a gothic motif. Lately though I've come to appreciate the way new artists have handled Drow skin color: charcoal grey, royal blue or even dark purple, emphasizing an alien quality rather than falling into equating skin color with morality.

Modern D&D Orcs I have no problem with. To me they're movie-era ridged Klingons, and I'm a big fan of modern Klingons

Fwib at [unixtime wrote:1184270175[/unixtime]]

Cielingcat at [unixtime wrote:1184256068[/unixtime]]As are white dragons, and red ones, and blue, and green. But the shiny dragons that are named after precious metals are good.

Colour-coded for your convenience!

I like to think of them as Crayola Dragons:biggrin:

Rob_Knotts at [unixtime wrote:1184275007[/unixtime]]
Modern D&D Orcs I have no problem with. To me they're movie-era ridged Klingons, and I'm a big fan of modern Klingons

I have a problem with them not being made fer fightin' an' winnin'.

Yeah, I seriously think of orcs as Warhammer and Warhammer 40k Orcs.

I really think that the guys at Games Workshop took a whole new spin on the fantasy races and made them something unique back in the 70's and 80's and kept going along their own progressive path until what we have now.

I like to have my orcs be large hulking over guys with green skin and fangs and tusks; since it makes them more distinguished from the other savage humanoids like hobgoblins or bugbears.

An' dey 'ave ta be da biggest an' da stompiest.

Rob wrote:I don't recall if they were actually described as black-skinned, but as a subterranian (sp) offshoot of elves

It's worse than that. They were originally turned black by the ultraviolet radiation found deep under ground in the dark. They had a special power called (later called "ultravision") which allowed them to see farther in caves than other creatures and not get blinded by heat sources because unlike everything else in D&D which saw thermographically, they could see ultraviolet light. Their equipment spoiled if taken into sunlight, but if you exposed them to the ultraviolet radiation of the Drow homeland for 1 week in 4 it could stay effective forever.

Which is why the drow looked like Africans and were evil.

Painfully painfully bad.

-Username17

Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1184305240[/unixtime]]Yeah, I seriously think of orcs as Warhammer and Warhammer 40k Orcs.

I really think that the guys at Games Workshop took a whole new spin on the fantasy races and made them something unique back in the 70's and 80's and kept going along their own progressive path until what we have now.

I like to have my orcs be large hulking over guys with green skin and fangs and tusks; since it makes them more distinguished from the other savage humanoids like hobgoblins or bugbears.

Shit, that was me btw.











And yeah, Green is best!

Really we have to look at Warhammer orcs, sicne 40k Orcs are traditional orcs that have been gene-spliced into having complex skills and abilities genetically built into their species genetic code.

The culture of the drow is largely fabricated, but in mythology, there actually are malicious dark-skinned elves that live underground {OK, Wikipedia}.

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1184352515[/unixtime]]And yeah, Green is best!

Really we have to look at Warhammer orcs, sicne 40k Orcs are traditional orcs that have been gene-spliced into having complex skills and abilities genetically built into their species genetic code.

What? 40k orks are like Warhammer orks, only with more kulture.

The culture of the drow is largely fabricated, but in mythology, there actually are malicious dark-skinned elves that live underground {OK, Wikipedia}.

That is because in the north where the Norsemen/Vikings were, black skin leads to a reduced Vitamin D intake, which is bad when you are in a cold region with less hours of sunlight. That, and/or the Vikings think "black skin is bad/evil."

In the north, black skin is usually the result of exposure damage. Frostbite.

-Crissa

I think the sum of it is that the Norse associated black skin with sickness and death, which brings us back around to the evil attribute.

I knew a pakistani guy that said that pakis beleive that black skin means you've been cursed by Allah.

Just to offer the flipside, something European slavers often exploited in Africa was that indiginous dark-skinned people meeting Europeans for this first time feared they might be ghosts, thier light-colored skin reflecting the pallid skin of corpses or bleached bones.

It would seem the color of death can be relative.

I knew a pakistani guy that said that pakis beleive that black skin means you've been cursed by Allah.

So how does he explain the Muslims in Northern Africa trying to convert the population/making sure that those who are converted stay true? Why worship a deity who cursed you?

Count_Arioch_the_28th at [unixtime wrote:1184433565[/unixtime]]I knew a pakistani guy that said that pakis beleive that black skin means you've been cursed by Allah.

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1184463335[/unixtime]]So how does he explain the Muslims in Northern Africa trying to convert the population/making sure that those who are converted stay true? Why worship a deity who cursed you?

Same basic religion, different cultures. Muslims in Northen Africa probably have different attitudes toward ethnic groups native to Africa. There are still some Christians who believe black skin is the Mark of Cain, but modern Christianity still embraces millions and millions of dark skinned believers all over the world.

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1184463335[/unixtime]]

I knew a pakistani guy that said that pakis beleive that black skin means you've been cursed by Allah.

So how does he explain the Muslims in Northern Africa trying to convert the population/making sure that those who are converted stay true? Why worship a deity who cursed you?

I make it a habit not to mock someone's beliefs to their face. So I didn't question.

However, if I was so inclined, I would have asked him what the pakis thought about the vikings. They were the whitest people on the planet and they didn't worship Allah that I know of.

Count Arioch wrote:I knew a pakistani guy that said that pakis beleive that black skin means you've been cursed by Allah.

I've heard from more than one Christian that God cursed Cain with black skin, and that's where black people came from.

Captain Bleach wrote:That is because in the north where the Norsemen/Vikings were, black skin leads to a reduced Vitamin D intake, which is bad when you are in a cold region with less hours of sunlight.

I don't think the Vikings knew about vitamin D. Nor do I know how much contact with dark-skinned people they had.

CB wrote:That, and/or the Vikings think "black skin is bad/evil."

Or, you know, you read the legends and find out that they believed the elves and dwarves underground had dark skin because they were forgers and that's what caused their skin to darken. Lamark's theory and all...

Cielingcat at [unixtime wrote:1184354721[/unixtime]]

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1184352515[/unixtime]]And yeah, Green is best!

Really we have to look at Warhammer orcs, sicne 40k Orcs are traditional orcs that have been gene-spliced into having complex skills and abilities genetically built into their species genetic code.

What? 40k orks are like Warhammer orks, only with more kulture.

I'd say, less.

B/c there are literally more ethnicities of WH orks than there are 40k Orcs.

WH orcs have... regular orcs, black orcs and savage orcs [and multiple tribes of each; about 3-5 main tribes of each]. So, nine to fifteen broad types of orc tribes.

Plus three varieties of goblins [jungle, night and normal] which also come in various tribal types.

40k Orcs come in Goff, Gold Toof, Blue Skullz, Snake Bitas, Bad Moonz, Red Sunz and Blood Axes. Which is seven stock tribes.

Myself, I've got no real preference, but WH orcs can always be converted to 40k, while 40k ones can't be made into WH ones.

Or, you know, you read the legends and find out that they believed the elves and dwarves underground had dark skin because they were forgers and that's what caused their skin to darken. Lamark's theory and all...

Who is Lamark?

Captain Bleach wrote:Who is Lamark?

Lamarck {OK, Wikipedia} was a naturalist who proposed a theory of evolution that included the idea that creatures acquired adaptations to their locale, then passed along those adaptations to their children. So a giraffe, for example, stretched its neck - becoming longer - and then the babies had long necks.


Edit: I spelled his name wrong.

Lamarkian evolution: action -> adaption -> inheretance

Normal Evolution: Survival -> inheretance -> adaption

So if a blacksmith gets black from working, their kids aren't automatically black. They're normal. Of course, that doesn't mean that there isn't black crud that gets on everyone down there and stains them black.

Also, if blacksmiths are an isolated population, and the blacksmiths who are born black already manage to produce more offspring than the non-black offspring producing blacksmiths, then your blacksmiths will change to blackened blacksmiths over time...

@-@

-Crissa

Major downfall of the first evolutionary theory: vast majority of predictions didn't match experimental/"real world" data. In my book he gets credit for breaking the evolutionary cherry but nothing else.

On the other hand, creatures do seem to inherit some stuff from the experience of their parents, via epigenetic effects.

Madness is hereditary, you catch it from your children.