Let's make fun of Sig

[Bigode]

Extra Spell? Was that it? People insisted a spellcaster can use it to gain ANY spell that met criteria, including other class lists.

Question: if the level of the learnable spells is based off the class progression (that is, is limited by what class and level you have), what basis there is to try to infer the list you can take the spell from? Not to say I don't consider the feat retarded this way, unlike the psionic Expanded Knowledge, which explicitly allows picking from any list; if somebody wanted to use Extra Spell this way IMC, I'd of course allow it, because that's the only way it's worth anything for any spellcaster, but I found it a bit ridiculous that some people defended the other interpretation of Extra Spell (which uses the same language as it used in 3.0) with basis in a 3.5 psionic feat.

[JonSetanta]

OK here's my current thoughts on the Fey racial class and SLA progressions, since we had no electricity all day and after sundown I had ample time to think in the dark.

I want it customizable to the individual Fey, be it NPC, XP bag, or PC, which means rather than have domain/sphere setups or progressive feats the racial class will instead have a spell list (much like any other spellcaster class)
This list will contain a smattering of Wizard and Druid, and if anything else is desired then something like Extra Spell will be availible (to cover ass)
Spellcasting will be as spell-like abilities. They will not be called invocations, which were a stupid, stupid idea.

For the range of capabilities, there will mostly be utility, transportation, evasion, control, and save-or-sucks. Very few save-or-dies, as it doesn't seem Fey culture would be inclined towards eternally wrecking the balance between clans; why annihilate your foes when they can be brainwashed or blackmailed and work for you? That's one enemy gone, and an ally gained. At least from Fey myth I've read they rarely seem to outright kill people and prefer instead to sleep/charm/polymorph/confuse/curse/torment, while those that do slay 'trespassers' tend to be loners and exceptions.

I read Tome of Fiends thoroughly (mostly the classes section) and as much as I like the True Fiend and feats, especially body-modifying ones, the other classes and Spheres won't work with this Fey material. For example, the Fiendish Brute and spheres are too rigid and need more options to players and DM. Tome of Fiends has some of the best fluff I've ever read, especially about Pandemonium, but the classes section needs work in specific areas and possibly playtesting for those sphere SLAs. Thats my 2 rubles.

Regardless of my opinion on ToF, my own original Fey feats idea needs overhaul... I'm thinking way less feats but it still must be slightly independent of character level for progression...


Oh and thanks Bigode for the proofread, verrrry detailed and I will study it in depth tomorrow. Rest was better today although last night I kept waking up (see time of my recent posts here.. it's all over the place, like every hour), and I severely recommend 8-hour Tylenol to anyone with chronic pain.
Anyway, out of all these reviews, the next update on the Wizards thread will be much better, guaranteed. Might have to vanish from the board for a bit if I get deeply into writing, but I'll be back within days.

[JonSetanta]

1186604575[/unixtime]]Question: if the level of the learnable spells is based off the class progression (that is, is limited by what class and level you have), what basis there is to try to infer the list you can take the spell from? Not to say I don't consider the feat retarded this way, unlike the psionic Expanded Knowledge, which explicitly allows picking from any list; if somebody wanted to use Extra Spell this way IMC, I'd of course allow it, because that's the only way it's worth anything for any spellcaster, but I found it a bit ridiculous that some people defended the other interpretation of Extra Spell (which uses the same language as it used in 3.0) with basis in a 3.5 psionic feat.

I had a nice paragraph and then Firefox crashed. Anyway...

I don't completely understand the question, but maybe this will help.
I didn't want Fey having access to Necromancy due to setting and style of their culture/races, as well as a reference to Irish Gaelic being devoid of written language (and Fey culture in parts resembling that Earthly counterpart).
(EDIT: Gaelic devoid of written language... until 4AD when monks adopted Latin.. so think pre-Christian Ireland, k?)
The limits to non-language dependant spells is because not all Fey are intelligent in a sentient sense; there should be similarities between the humanoid Fey and animalistic Fey beyond being both Fey, they should share the same spells and to allow the animal ones language-spells seemed.. odd.

I could use Extra Spell or similar feats to expand a Fey spell list, but as Extra Spell is I don't agree with the wording. Mystical Tutoring or whatever the Fey equivalent will become is more limited in scope but will have more clear definition of which spells are possible, preferably limited by spell subtype and/or function rather than "other class lists".

Did that answer some? Or was I way off.

[Catharz]

1186639391[/unixtime]]...Irish Gaelic being devoid of written language (and Fey culture in parts resembling that Earthly counterpart).
(EDIT: Gaelic devoid of written language... until 4AD when monks adopted Latin.. so think pre-Christian Ireland, k?)

What about Ogam?

[Edit] Just checked Wikipedia, they list a date of 4AD-10AD so I guess that's what you were referring to?

Anyway, I do see some aesthetic reasons to keep the Fey from having any written language.

[JonSetanta]

1186676919[/unixtime]]

1186639391[/unixtime]]...Irish Gaelic being devoid of written language (and Fey culture in parts resembling that Earthly counterpart).
(EDIT: Gaelic devoid of written language... until 4AD when monks adopted Latin.. so think pre-Christian Ireland, k?)

What about Ogam?

[Edit] Just checked Wikipedia, they list a date of 4AD-10AD so I guess that's what you were referring to?

Anyway, I do see some aesthetic reasons to keep the Fey from having any written language.

Yes the date(s) is an approximation, like most shifts in culture, and probably can't be traced to any single dramatic event. Probably happened like "Oh shiiiite, ya mean we hafta learn n write LATIN now eh??? Ohhhh fuck ye!" with much resistance but eventually the Irish monks realized their culture would die without written preservation, and the English would stomp them for being pagans without Christian conversion
Ah, civilization.

I recognize the Google pics of Ogam, strangely. It's fascinating since so few people today use it, yet it looks like such a beautiful method of writing. Almost like futhark written as music notes.
I considered Fey using Sylvan written in pictograms/heiroglyphics but decided that they will simply have an oral culture, since they are immortal and don't really need to pass on much information to succeeding generations. Any young Fey would simply seek their elders and ask questions.
This theme also fits with Bards and their predominantly lyrical/musical class features. Fey Bards as historians and lorekeepers would be a reasonable and useful role, also fitting with Norse/Celtic culture.

[Bigode]

Er ... way off: I was making a rules question on how Extra Spell works in RAW - I believe it only allows learning from the spell list of the class used to determine maximum level available, for the reasons mentioned in the past paragraph.

On the illiteracy issue, it's cool; I do not see why couldn't you find use for a fey brute class (given some of the fey kinds mentioned in the introductory paragraphs); and you're welcome.