The Gaming Den

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1075918420[/unixtime]]

They are, however, better rogues than wizards are, and better wizards than rogues are.

And they are worse Rogues and worse Wizards than a Rogue with the Leadership Feat and a Wizard Cohort.

Both the AT and the Leadership feat are Core and in the same DMG - so I can't see why anyone would get all that excited about the AT.

-Username17

Your "logic" can be folllowed to its natural conclusion :

Class x with a synergising high level cohort is more powerful than class y of the same level without a cohort.

Cant argue with that, seems self-evident, so from that we must conclude that :

Class y sucks !

So it follows that classes suck. Lets hope they fix this glaring imbalance in 4.0E !

There are two ways to "blend" roguing and magic in the DMG: Arcane Trickster and Leadership.

One is better and the other is worse. Period.

-Username17

Oh, come on, Frank. Your comparison is highly flawed. Why?

1. You did not compare your Rogue>Mage Leadership scenario to a comparable levelled Trixter WHO ALSO has the Leadership feat. Give the Trixter a pure Rogue, pure Wizard, Divine Trixter (say, a pure Cleric with the Trickery Domain), or even a Bard ... and the Trixter will win out over *pure* Rogue or Wizard 10 times out of 10. Even Thoth made an interesting observation, a Trixter with a Hospitaler cohort becomes a viable "4-in-1" Party all wrapped up under one player's thumb.

2. A significant portion of all DM's do not allow the Leadership feat, due to a number of reasons (too many characters to control, the party skewing the power curve, etc.). The Leadership feat has proven itself time and again to be the most powerful feat in 3.0 & 3.5. Any character augmented with a cohort suddenly becomes a powerhouse. Even if the parent character is something sucky like a Tempest or Bard/Blood Magus.

****

Per Frank wrote: ... But to the best of my knowledge a straight Rogue can simply do anything an Arcane Trickster can do better - and since the Rogue is a core class, that means the Arcane Trickster sucks.

The best of your knowledge is wrong, Frank. Again, because the quote you made above is in a post where a huge chunk of your argument is based primarily based upon comparing a Trixter *without* a cohort to a Rogue/Mage with the opposite as a cohort.

There's nobody here that disagrees with the weakness of the low level Trixter at low levels, and the challenging play of the mid-level Trixter. But at high levels, the Trixter trumps the Rogue for sheer versatility, survival, and consistant damage output. Your "4 Vials of Acid" Rogue won't do squat versus many high level adversaries due to the the vast amount of creatures (like Devils/Demons) that are immune or resistant to that acid. Hence, you get no piggy-backed SA damage if that acid doesn't hurt the creature. The high level Trixter is tossing out either Lesser Sonic Orbs or Sonic Orbs that are Maximized, Empowered, or Energy Admixtured. And rest assured, that damage *WILL* hit, and his SA damage *WILL* piggyback. If for some odd reason the creature is immune to Sonic damage (unlikely), he can use his Energy Affinity feat (which now replaces Energy Substitution) to circumvent that. High level Trixters also use Consecrate Spell to ensure even a little damage squeaks by to carry over the SA dice. Not entirely a superstar feat, but one that meshes well with the Trixter's shtick.

All the while, the Trixter is using his own inherent abilities to Fly, be under G. Invisibility, be Blinking, Blurred, etc.

Don't even throw out that the Rogue can counter with magic items to equal/better the Trixter. Because you have to also give the Trixter the same gold-equivalent in magic items which he will use to trump the Rogue in other areas. Including magic items only makes the Rogue play catch-up to the high level Trixter. And still, the Trixter has all those abilities as inherent class abilities, which is always better than augmenting via equipment any day of the week.

Also, a Trixter totally trumps a high level Rogue when facing non-sneakable Constructs, Plants, Oozes, etc. He has spell solutions for these guys. Or at least spell buffs for his allies.

Now ... if you want a Trixter archetype without AT levels. Get a super-high INT Wizard (for bonus skill ranks) and take 2 feats - Versatile (Rokugan) and Cosmopolitan (FRCS). Get 3 key Rogue skills and max them out. You can't deal with traps. But you sure as heck can Move Silently, Hide, & Listen with the best of them. Or whatever skills you want.

Probably the coolest Trixter build I've seen so far is:

Rogue-1 .. Ninja1 .. Wiz4 .. Spellfilch1 .. AT10 .. MageArcaneOrder1 .. Spellfilch2

At least 15 of your 20 levels gets Rogue skills (usually its 13 levels ), BAB +10, 9th level spells, Spell Pool I, Spell Filch spell conversion, once per day you can SA for up to +16d6. Treat him like a Rogue with inherent arcane enhancement, and you are all set. The build uses Rokugan and Dragonlance material, but the 2 classes are generic enough to throw into a Greyhawk or FRCS campaign without a problem.

-------

By the way, Frank. Your assessment that the CO Gang at WotC Boards "love" Mystic Theurge is quite laughable. None of the regulars or min/max superstars over there use the MyTh like the rest of creation does. They use it to do things like get 19 levels of Cleric or Druid spellcasting levels with a full 7 levels of Nar Demonbinder spells in a 20 level build (which grants you a ton of extra high level spells for a minor investment). None of that Cler3/Wiz3/MyTh10 crap that the whole gaming world seems hinged on. The "standard" MyTh build is not advocated by anyone with credibility over there.

Regards,
Lee

You know, I'm going to have to stick up for Frank here.

Most of the people who believe in things like Arcane Tricksters and Mystic Theurges believe in their coolness as 'self-contained'--like you can be really cool without relying on anyone else in the party for buffs, support, etc.

Well, GUESS WHAT. Almost all of the really cool tricks an Arcane Trickster can do precidate on the fact that there isn't a wizard in the party and if there is, that he's too selfish to back the straight-classed rogue up with polymorphs, improved invisibilities, or whatever.

Claiming that an arcane trickster is cool this way makes me want to do the same thing whenever someone makes a monk build where they actually purchase an amulet of fists +4 or +5 when there's greater magic weapons floating around in the party--ignore it.

What did you "back up", Lago?

Nothing. That's what you backed up. Feel free to address the points I made in my last post. And keep in mind, I fully support the premise that the AT needs a lot of help at low-to-mid levels. Unless played by someone who really understands the esoterics of the hybridizing of Rogue and Mage.

Comparing an AT to a MyTh is folly. MyTh's blow, except when used in the more quixotic circumstances I mentioned in my last post. Also, your Monk comparison doesn't really have any relevance to the AT situation we are discussing. AT's seem so "easy" to understand when first reading its description in the DMG. Although playing them at early levels neccessitates a real playing mechanics and playing culture change for most folks. There's a lot of nuances to squeezing out the proper utility and power out of them. That's why I discourage newer players from taking on the Trixter PrC.

The selfishness you speak of regarding the AT rings true. He's more a self-contained package - a magic-wielding Rogue more than a Roguish Mage. That's why his spellcasting does not contribute much to party synergy. He still *can* buff and cast utility spells for the party dynamic, but those slots will be few. His spells are primarily there to make him into the uber-Rogue, and one hell of a top-tier infiltrator, mobility Rogue, obfuscator, disguise king, and Ray Spell Killer (which he'll rarely ever miss at higher levels). So in regards to his party dynamics, he's best not played by a selfish player.

Regards,
Lee

"Even Thoth made an interesting observation.."

Hey! I always make interesting observations.

TA

Your "4 Vials of Acid" Rogue won't do squat versus many high level adversaries due to the the vast amount of creatures (like Devils/Demons) that are immune or resistant to that acid. Hence, you get no piggy-backed SA damage if that acid doesn't hurt the creature.

Okay, but YOUR character is also crippled by his lack of BAB and class abilities--the rogue can get around this limitation by picking up holy waters, alchemist fires, WHATEVER. The Arcane Trickster is stuck with his BAB unless he throws out a tenser's. And, for the cost of a round, is then just simply stuck with having a better BAB than a rogue for 18 or fewer rounds but way fewer class abilities.

The high level Trixter is tossing out either Lesser Sonic Orbs or Sonic Orbs that are Maximized, Empowered, or Energy Admixtured. And rest assured, that damage *WILL* hit, and his SA damage *WILL* piggyback.

The fact that you thought about bringing up those metamagic feats on damage-dealing spells (it's a universal contention that this tactic is complete crap) probably indicates that you haven't thought this thing through.

Further, he will only be getting one sneak attack ever doing this tactic, which is actually kind of crap. It's in the same book which you took this spell--one spell, one sneak attack.

His spells are primarily there to make him into the uber-Rogue, and one hell of a top-tier infiltrator, mobility Rogue, obfuscator, disguise king, and Ray Spell Killer (which he'll rarely ever miss at higher levels). So in regards to his party dynamics, he's best not played by a selfish player.

All the while, the Trixter is using his own inherent abilities to Fly, be under G. Invisibility, be Blinking, Blurred, etc.

Emphasis mine.

But rogues with wizardly support can already GET these bitching things, only they end up with more class abilities, skill points, and BAB in the end.

To get all of the cool things you mentioned, it will cost a wizard... exactly one a 8th level spell slot (for the persistent improved invisibility) and another 8th level spell slot cost long ago (to be polymorphed any objected into some kind of angel).

Everything you mentioned that an Arcane Trickster can do at a relevant level, a rogue can do if the party wizard isn't selfish, only better.

Like I said, selfishness, only you're hosing the party by intentionally wanting a sub-optimal character just because you want to do 'everything by yourself'.

I min-max characters in a vaccuum, too, but I'm willing to admit that this isn't realistic, as who the hell would buy a +5 magic beast bane, flaming, shocking, icy, ghost touch weapon when he could buy a +1 magic beast bane, flaming, shocking, icy, spell-storing, vicious, subdual, keen ghost touch weapon (pumped up by the party wizard's Greater Magic Weapon) instead?

Someone who forgets that he's playing a team-based game, I guess.

Oh. Whoops. I just realized that even though Improved Invisibility has an area of personal, the one you give to other people doesn't get it.

My bad. What you want is a ring of blink--22,000 gp, which means that you get it sooner than the Arcane Trickster gets blink or improved invisibility.

(28k I think in 3.5)

Ring of Blinking that is...

TA

A: Hybrid!
B: Specialist!
A: Hybrid!
B: Specialist!
A: Hybrid!
B: Specialist!
A: Hybrid!
B: Specialist!
A: Hybrid!
B: Specialist!
A: Hybrid!
B: Specialist!

Also, a Trixter totally trumps a high level Rogue when facing non-sneakable Constructs, Plants, Oozes, etc. He has spell solutions for these guys. Or at least spell buffs for his allies.

And the Rogue can't be benefitting from these buffs? As Lago said, it's a team game. The party Wizard is casting buff spells on the other players, including the Rogue.

The Trickster gains:

1> The ability to combine ray spells with sneak attacks.

2> The ability to have some Rogue Skills at maximum ranks while benefitting from Personal spells without the use of Spell Storage or Use Magic Device.

Um.... who cares? These abilities are not meaningful.

Rays + Sneak Attack is lame. As previously noted, you can do more damage with a better attack bonus throwing vials of acid, alchemist's fire, boomstones, pop rocks or whatever as a straight rogue. That's using nonmagical equipment at high level. If you have yourself some adamantine returning throwing knives you'll do much better. A Rogue can already switch between different energy types without expending feats. You don't need to worry about using higher spell slots and using up feats to do half your damage through their defenses with a consecrated spell when you can nail that Vrock for more damage through all of their resistances by just throwing holy water.

Less damage, and less uses per day. There's no good reason to use sneak attack on a spell when sneak attacks on bottles of crap do more damage right out of the box.

Personal Spells are nice. Heck, if there was a personal spell that could give you back your five levels worth of sneak attack, and your four points of base attack bonus, and your seventy skill ranks then it would be totally worth it in spades.

But there isn't.

So it's not.

The Arcane Trickster can use some very precious resources in order to temporarily duplicate nearly the kind of damage that a stright Rogue can hand out. They also give up seventy skill ranks and "don't need to rely on a party wizard."

So what? It's a team game. You have a party wizard. If you don't have a party Wizard, there's a feat called Leadership that gives your party a wizard. And then the problem is completely solved. The ability to "not have to rely on a party wizard" is as meaningless as the ability to live without drinking water. Sure it's sometimes flavorful, but since the game actually includes you having the thing that you don't need - it doesn't actually make any difference whether you require it or not.

So back to the original point: does it ever get powerful, does it really "pay off" at higher levels? Heck no. You get to trade real things (70 skill ranks, 4 points of BAB, and 5 levels of Sneak Attack), for some "self synergy" which is essentially non-stackable with and in all ways smaller than the "team synergy" you already have. It's like getting a +4 Resistance Bonus to your saves at 17th level - sounds big but it doesn't stack with the +5 Cloak of Resistance that you got in exchange for pocket lint at 12th level - so it doesn't matter. If you actually paid any class features at all for it you got the shaft.

-Username17

It's all about concept. If I want to play a character who can sneak around while pulling off cool magicks, I don't want to be told no because there's a wizard in the party who can buff my rogue. A rogue who can be buffed by an eager spellslinger is NOT my concept. A rogue who can use magic IS. The fact of the matter is that if I want to play the above concept, my first instinct would be to liberally mix rogue with some spellcasting class, and we already know that rogue/wizards suck. Arcane Trickster may still leave something to be desired, but it's still better than Rog/Wiz characters.

The solution to this is to build a better Arcane Trickster, NOT to buy leadership, or to tell people to suck it up and play a more regular rogue and let the wizard buff you. Some play this game to not only play a powerful and capable character, but to play a powerful and capable character that matches a list of criteria in their heads that doesn't always match those provided by the 11 basic archetypes in the book, and there's not one reason they need to be punished for that.

-Desdan

The solution to this is to build a better Arcane Trickster

Actually, I think the solution is to fundamentally redesign the class system in a manner which makes multi-genre characters less suck. As long as spellcasters get the shaft on their spells per day, there spell power, their spell resistance penetration, their spell ranges and durations, their spell damage, and thier save DCs for multiclassing - spellcasters just aren't going to be part of a balanced breakfast no matter how you slice it. Classes which temporarily prevent you from faling farther behind are not really a solution and making them better only holds off the problem for so long.

There's only a certain amount you can fall behind on the caster curve and still be capable. If you are 10 levels behind, you can't penetrate the SR of creatures your level and your spellcasting doesn't mean anything. Classes like the Mystic Theurge or the Arcane Trickster are only 10 levels long. Once they are done with, you have to go back and start falling behind again. Sooner or later - your spells don't mean anything and then you've given up some of your other class for nothing.

The question was not "how do I get the most out of my character concept?" It was:

Given: Arcane Tricksters are powerful at high levels.
Query: How do I become good and survivable at low and medium levels?

And the given assumption is false.

Had it instead been:

Given: I want to play someone who performs magical tricks and performs Roguish activitivies.
Query: How do I create my character concept without kicking myself in the balls?

This entire discussion would be different, and revolve around questions like:

"Is it sufficient to fulfill your character concept to be a Rogue who uses Wands with UMD?"

or

"Is it sufficient to fulfill your character concept to be an Illusionist/Mindbender or Enchanter/Heart Warder?"

Which is an entirely different discussion, and one I would be willing to have.

-Username17

There's only a certain amount you can fall behind on the caster curve and still be capable. If you are 10 levels behind, you can't penetrate the SR of creatures your level and your spellcasting doesn't mean anything.]

Well then, Frank, perhaps you need to acknowledge that AT's can cast spells that do not need saves or SR checks. Every high level AT I've seen that has been top-tier (I've seen, played with, and DM'ed a number of them) goes this route. They don't need Spell Focus or Spell Penetration feats. EVER. Evard's Black Tentacles, Sonic Orbs, Acid Fog, you get the picture. Bolstered by spells like Telekinesis, Web, SM spells, etc., and you've got *firepower* that is just as efficient as the Mage who casts 3 levels higher than you if they had cast the same spell.

Given: Arcane Tricksters are powerful at high levels. Query: How do I become good and survivable at low and medium levels?

And the given assumption is false.

According to *you*! Your gaming sphere of influence must have short reach. AT's have been proven time and time again to be capable and strong at high levels. Your assertion is nonsense, based on the fact that AT's are popular for both their flavour and upper level power synergy. People the world over do not play high level AT's because they suck. I will admit, I've seen people mismanage the class ability ideosynchracies of the AT over the years. And that's why I go back to my earlier post that the high level AT really pops when played in the hands of an expert player.

"Is it sufficient to fulfill your character concept to be a Rogue who uses Wands with UMD?"

You keep hinging your argument that the Rogue is superior because of magic item accompaniment! And you do so without comparing an AT with gold-equivalent magical items in *his* possession! Add to the fact that UMD is not always successful for a Rogue, while it is for an AT (assuming Wiz/Sorc spell items), and you have a skewed comparison. AT's *with* magic items are even more superior than the Rogue with magic items. As now the AT can use his vast selection of spell and resource spell slots on one mandatory magical buffinsgs or attacks.
==============

Regarding your prior post:

Personal Spells are nice. Heck, if there was a personal spell that could give you back your five levels worth of sneak attack, and your four points of base attack bonus, and your seventy skill ranks then it would be totally worth it in spades.

Oh please. 9th level spells are "nice"? You don't need a maxed Bluff when you can cast Suggestion, Charm Person, or Dominate Monster ... or hell, just DimDoor your way past the guard. You don't need a maxed Disguise skill when you can cast Disguise Self, Alter Self or Polymorph. You don't need a maxed D. Device skill when you cast Knock or Shatter. The list goes on and on. Spells *are* your Rogue skill equivalents in an AT build. And in many many cases, they exceed those skills capabilities. And don't forget ... the AT has a pretty nifty set of skill ranks himself, especially with his high INT nature.

And note: these spell are inherent abilities, and not provided by a freakin' Cohort, team-friendly mage, or reliance on a possibly-failed UMD check.

Rays + Sneak Attack is lame.

Try telling that to thousands of monsters that have died efficiently and quickly to this combo. And again, good AT's don't use Fireball, Lightning Bolt, or any of those other nonsense DC & SR based spells.

Less damage, and less uses per day. There's no good reason to use sneak attack on a spell when sneak attacks on bottles of crap do more damage right out of the box.

AT high level? Wrong.

The AT is casting 2 high level Rays per round (one quickened). If you are using spells like Prismatic Eye (MoF book), you are getting even more attacks per round at higher damage than if using your "Vials of Crap". You can add in other high-level hijinx combos that involve spells as Simbul's Spell Sequencer, Stars of Arvandor, etc. to get more attacks and/or damage potential (through potentially, more sneak attacks) per round than a comparable Rogue.

Hell, I've cast Hail of Stone and gotten SA damage on 5 out of 6 targets (because I had to make attack rolls on each potential target). That's something a Rogue could not have done. And *that* ... was my Quickened spell.

So what? It's a team game. You have a party wizard. If you don't have a party Wizard, there's a feat called Leadership that gives your party a wizard. And then the problem is completely solved. The ability to "not have to rely on a party wizard" is as meaningless as the ability to live without drinking water. Sure it's sometimes flavorful, but since the game actually includes you having the thing that you don't need - it doesn't actually make any difference whether you require it or not.

I'm with you on the "Team Game". I don't believe in mavericks or solo charging types. And I see AT's working well within a teamwork synergy concept. The no save/no SR spells I told you about earlier are classic battlefield management spells that also stalls enemies to allow prep and positioning actions by you and your allies. A good AT *still* has slots to allocate to buff his allies (Enlarge Person is a classic - it's arguably the best 1st level spell in the game) in addition to providing them divinations. After all, he is probably the party scout as well, so all those Detect Thoughts, Clairvoyance, and Scry spells are definitely mandatory for an AT. And spells as such as nowhere near considered to be selfish. Divinations help entire partys prepare, stay informed, stay on track, and avoid dieing.

In summation, a savvy AT player will have to spend some serious time allocating his spell slots and spell selections. He's not a blaster mage, even though he has characteristics of one (Rays + SA). He also has to accomodate spells to work with his scout, Rogue, & party buffing duties. Is this like stuffing 10 pounds of goods in a 5 pound bag? It can be, that's why the AT is not for one-dimensional players. At high levels, a 1 level dip into Mage of the Arcane Order can pay off huge utilitarian dividends to an AT. That's 8 or 9 spell level slots (combined total) to put into 1st through 3rd level utility slots to ensure he can effectively address all his roles. And when doing the sometimes awkward "Calling" of his spells via Spell Pool, he can do so while hidden or invisible ... where he won't get caught like a standard Mage would be doing his calling out in the proverbial open.

So yeah, Frank ... those 9th level spells are indeed, "nice" for an AT Rogue. Nice enough to make him a high-level star when adventuring amongst his fellow highly min/maxed compatriots. You just need to acknowledge that he has his shtick. If he is in a big party, he becomes even more powerful, as he can focus his spell arsenal on a neccessary party niche role. If he is in a 2 or 3 person party, not many people would pass on having the AT be able to perform admirably in 2 key roles.

Regards,
Lee

Lee wrote:Well then, Frank, perhaps you need to acknowledge that AT's can cast spells that do not need saves or SR checks. Every high level AT I've seen that has been top-tier (I've seen, played with, and DM'ed a number of them) goes this route. They don't need Spell Focus or Spell Penetration feats. EVER. Evard's Black Tentacles, Sonic Orbs, Acid Fog, you get the picture.

When you make claims like this, people do not respect you.

Tome and Blood wrote: Sonic Orb
Evocation [Sonic]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
As acid orb, except sonic orb deals sonic damage.

Acid Orb
Evocation [Acid]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Close (25 ft. +5 Ft./2 levels)
Targets: One or more creatures or objects, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

When you give an example of a spell you can rely upon which does not allow Spell Resistance or Saving Throws of a spell which allows both Spell Resistance and a Saving Throw - what exactly are we supposed to think?

Are we supposed to think that your argument is well considered? Are we supposed to think that you have clue one as to what you are talking about? How?

You just said that they don't need Spell Penetration to catch up to the curve because they have Sonic Orb, when Sonic Orb requires that it penetrates SR in order to work at all.

In conclusion: you obviously don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about, and I don't understand why you persist in digging yourself a bigger and bigger hole by continuing to post into this argument.

As long as you kept stuff in generalities you could claim preference or something - now that you've busted out specifics your arguments are held up to the harsh light of unbiased examination - and now you lose. Thank you for playing.

Lee wrote:Hell, I've cast Hail of Stone and gotten SA damage on 5 out of 6 targets (because I had to make attack rolls on each potential target). That's something a Rogue could not have done. And *that* ... was my Quickened spell.

One spell, one sneak attack. Period. If you cast Hail of Stone and got more than one sneak attack out of it you were cheating. I don't really give a damn what happens when you cheat. Heck, if I cheat for power I would probably just roll natural 20s with a Vorpal Sword - that would work pretty well too.

When you don't play by the rules it doesn't lend credence to your analysis of those rules. That you are able to pound your fist about how awesome your illegal combos are means not that you have a brilliant mind but that you are a fool.

-Username17

Please keep the discussion civil, if indeed you are going to continue it.

Game On,
fbmf

You know, Frank, there are orb spells in the MiniHB that are touch attack, no save, and no SR....

That's entirely possible.

However, "Sonic Orb" is a specific sell which in fact allows both a save and Spell Resistance.

Black Tentacles has a Grapple Bonus linearly dependent upon your Caster Level, so an Arcane Trickster is out 3 points on an opposed test.

Acid Fog doesn't make attack rolls. The only difference between it being cast by an Arcane Trickster and it being cast by a real wizard is that the actual Wizard can cast it for a longer duration, and uses up a lower relative spell slot out of a greater total.

The point of the rant, thus, is that the "Arcane Trickster" does not need to use their Rogue Abilities because they are a Wizard. That's fine and dandy - but you really are much better as a Wizard if you actually have a caster level equal to your level.

None of the combos and abilities our friend Lee was mentioning are actually synergistic with the Rogue abilities that you gave up 3 levels of spellcasting to get. Acid Fog is a great spell, but you gain nothing by having Rogue abilities when it goes off.

I mean, Lee goes off on such tangents as:

Lee wrote:And when doing the sometimes awkward "Calling" of his spells via Spell Pool, he can do so while hidden or invisible ... where he won't get caught like a standard Mage would be doing his calling out in the proverbial open.

????

The "standard Mage" casts Invisibiities which last longer than the Arcane Trickster's do. This is not an ability of the Arcane Trickster, it's an ability that any Wizard could have which is once again caster level dependent.

The argument seems to be that you need to have the Arcane Trickster class in order to use your Wizard spells in a sneaky or clever fashion - and that's so far from true as to be laughable.

-Username17

But those wizard spell synergise with the skills the AT possesses to produce an overall effect better than a pure arcane caster could, or a rogue in isolation.

I do find it curious, Frank, that when arguing how weak the MT is you ignore the party aspect (because an MT is a useful party contributor) and focus solely on the classes stand alone weaknesses.

Yet when arguing how weak the AT is you analyse it only in the context of the party, discounting the AT's stand alone strengths.

That sort of implies "I don't like this class, what arguement can I use to support my gut feel".


And you still have not addressed my earlier point.

By the logic you used there, then a cleric is underpowered because a wizard of equal level with a leadership derived cohort cleric would be more powerful.

But a wizard is underpowered because a cleric of equal level with a leadership derived cohort wizard would be more powerful.

Perhaps the issue here is the leadership feat and not the AT ?

I do find it curious, Frank, that when arguing how weak the MT is you ignore the party aspect (because an MT is a useful party contributor) and focus solely on the classes stand alone weaknesses.

Uh, what? When was this ever made a premise?

The only thing I've seen the Mystic Theurge used for that didn't suck is cheese, like getting a cleric levels in the Mage of the Arcane Order or Incantatrix PrC.

Yet when arguing how weak the AT is you analyse it only in the context of the party, discounting the AT's stand alone strengths.

D&D isn't meant to be played like that, however. That's like arguing that a bard is the best character to solo the game since he can charm the pants off of all of the kings, make them their thralls, and rule the multiverse.

This is a reprint from the boards.

Part of the reason why the bard, IMO, isn't living up to snuff is not because the bard isn't any good, it's just that everyone else does their job so well that they cover for everyone else.

Picture a sample five-person party: Druid, Rogue, Ranger, Cleric, and Wizard. And let's have a list of everything we need.

We need buffs. Who can supply buffs? The wizard, cleric, and to a limited extent the druid.

We need to nuke enemies with spells. Who can do it? The wizard, cleric, and druid.

We need to charm the pants off of the nobles so they'll let us enter the tomb. Who can do it? The rogue and druid, and to a lesser extent the cleric.

We need to summon up some extra companions for help. Who can do that? Why, almost everyone but the rogue (though the rogue gets the largest amounts of 'real' feats in the game, and one of them can be leadership).

We need stealth. Who can provide the party with stealth? The druid, rogue, and ranger.

We need to destroy enemies with physical violence. Why, almost everyone can do that except the wizard.

We need healing. The ranger, druid, and cleric can take care of that, and to a lesser extent the rogue.

Who gets the information needed to advance the plot? The rogue, cleric, and wizard.

We need to overcome mechanical traps, and in case we do have traps, we need someone to help us bypass them. The wizard and rogue can take care of this.

Supposedly, we need to fill up gaps in the party, as that's where the bard shines. Of course, where are the gaps that need to be filled? I don't see any. Replacing any of those characters in that equation with a bard and things would go south fast, as a bard would end up adding LESS versatility to the party, since everything's taken care of and yet there are people who already have their chosen specialty.

There's just no room for a bard when D&D is so good at rewarding regular teamwork. So that leaves us with cheese like arcane strike and words of creation and improvisation and that one spell in S&S that, when empowered, can add up to +7 to a friend's save DC for several rounds, when we're expected to pay a friggin' WISH (9th level spell and 5000 xp) to get a smaller effect for one round. Of course, that's just cheese.

Unfortunately, the Arcane Trickster is in the same spot. The only time he even remotely comes ahead of a rogue in the form of non-transferrable tactics is because of cheese or unquestionable tactics, like payment for a hide life several months ago, shapechange, magic jar, or chain contingency + greater heroism, tenser's transformation, and ghostform.

But those wizard spell synergise with the skills the AT possesses to produce an overall effect better than a pure arcane caster could, or a rogue in isolation.

That's the claim - but I have yet to see anyone actually demonstrate this. The only synergy that you get is:

1> You can use personal spells without a ring of spell storing or using the use magic device skill.

and

2> You can add sneak attack to your ray spells.

That's the whole synergy, and noone has come up with a combo on this thread using either of those which is simultaneously impressive and legal.

I'm unimpressed.

I do find it curious, Frank, that when arguing how weak the MT is you ignore the party aspect (because an MT is a useful party contributor) and focus solely on the classes stand alone weaknesses.

With the Mystic Theurge I can show that you get more total Cleric spells as a Wizard who happens to use their extra 3 caster levels worth of bonus spell slots to cast Summon Monster.

It doesn't matter how good a party contributor the Mystic Theurge is, because the Wizard can do literally everything he can do, better. Both ability sets are simply "spellcasting", so you can look at both piles of spells and compare them directly.

With the Arcane Trickster comparison is more complicated, since one set of abilities is "spellcasting" and the other is "not spellcasting". At that point you have to ask yourself "What can you do as an Arcane Trickster that you can't do as an actual Wizard or Rogue in a party of adventurers? What can you do as an actual Wizard or Rogue that you can't do when you are missing 5 levels of sneak attack, 70 skill points, 4 BAB over a Rogue, and need to invest in some "magic" skills in addition to your Rogue skills - or 3 caster levels, as appropriate?"

So I haven't seen anything that an Arcane Trickster can do that a party of adventurers can't do except "feel really important" - and that's not worthwhile.

-Username17

Oh dear ... poor Frank.

Frank, go look at the Miniature's Handbook regarding the Orb spells I am talking about. You are using the outdated version in Tome & Blood. Hence, all your unpleasant ranting & insults were for naught.

And Frank, go look at the text for Hail of Stones in the Underdark book. Your "one spell, one sneak attack" assessment is correct. Per target that is.

And I do look forward to your apology to me.

----------

Regarding my issue with the MotAO spell pool calling, you fail to see that the AT can either stealthily call the spell with Invisibility .... or using his Hide skill. Again, something a Mage can't do. And the AT can use that Hide skill as many times as he wishes. And in many circumstances, Hide is much more advantageous than Invisibility. Goes back to my original premise that the Trixter is an Elritch-enhanced Rogue moreso than a Stealthy Mage.

None of the combos and abilities our friend Lee was mentioning are actually synergistic with the Rogue abilities that you gave up 3 levels of spellcasting to get. Acid Fog is a great spell, but you gain nothing by having Rogue abilities when it goes off. wrote:

Ah, but you do! Acid Fog gives your party time to prep, & buff, and position itself for when the opponent(s) come out of the fog. I don't know of any min/maxed high level partys that do not have everyone using Blindsight. And with Blindsight, the Trickster can fire rays into the Acid Fog. Since Rays are the only form of missile fire that can penetrate a fog. This is a great tactic versus an opponent that does not have a mobility solution to deal with Acid Fog's movement hindrances.

Black Tentacles has a Grapple Bonus linearly dependent upon your Caster Level, so an Arcane Trickster is out 3 points on an opposed test. wrote:

I rarely ever do not have an opponent at high level, assuming 3-4 encounters a day, that EBT is not effective against, even with its level differentiation compared to Mr. Wizard. The spell rocks and rarely dissapoints. It's mass grappling ability combos well with my ability to set-up SA's (using arrows, vials of acid, spells, etc.).

Unfortunately, the Arcane Trickster is in the same spot. The only time he even remotely comes ahead of a rogue in the form of non-transferrable tactics is because of cheese or unquestionable tactics, like payment for a hide life several months ago, shapechange, magic jar, or chain contingency + greater heroism, tenser's transformation, and ghostform. wrote:Per Lago AM3P...

No ... at high levels, a naked Trixter is all-around stronger than a naked Rogue. He can **way** outdamage a Rogue (Empowered Disintegrate + Empowered Quickened Scorching Ray). He has **way** more better scout utilities in his possession (Scry, Clairvoyance, Prying Eyes, Ghostform. He is **way** more defensible and difficult to hit (again, inherent spellcasting buffs). He is **way** more proficient at disabling traps and locks (Shatter, Knock, Summon a monster to smash/remove such item). And he can go anywhere, whenever he wants (Fly, DimDoor, Teleport). Unlike a Rogue who has to bluff his way past guards, climb walls, etc. Oh, and the AT has good skills too. So he can max out a few key Roguish skills. Starting with a crazy high INT and Sun Elf allows makes life easier regarding skill rank acquisition.

That's the claim - but I have yet to see anyone actually demonstrate this. The only synergy that you get is:1> You can use personal spells without a ring of spell storing or using the use magic device skill.[br wrote:
and

2> You can add sneak attack to your ray spells.

That's the whole synergy, and noone has come up with a combo on this thread using either of those which is simultaneously impressive and legal.

I'm unimpressed.]

Sigh .....

Rogue skills, Rogue Sneak Attack, Divination Scouting spells, Rays + SA, Mobility & Stealth enhancement spells, ranged Disable Device/SoH capabilities, the list goes on and on Frank. Frank ... I get the distinct impression you have *NEVER* seen a high-level Trixter either played at all or played properly. You seem very narrow focused on *making* the straight Wizard or Rogue compare-up or outclass the Trixter. And yet you have failed to name even one circumstance where a straight Mage can out-stealth a Trixter or a straight Rogue can out-damage a Trixter. And in all cases, you have ignored the best aspect of the high-levelled AT, and that is his unparalleled ability to scout/recon and be the transport/mobility/information-provider super-freak that he is. You also have ignored the inevitable 2 and 3 person partys that do exist in the D&D gaming world. An environment where the Trixter thrives.

8th and 9th level spells over-compensates for the skill rank and BAB loss over the Rogue. The prodigious Roguish skills, Sneak Attack, ranged prestidigitation of the Trixter over-compensates for the spellcasting level loss of 2 or 3 levels over the Wizard. The high-level AT is powerful, versatile, fulfills multiple roles more than adequately, and kills with more efficiency than a Rogue.

If you dispel the elitist notion that the common D&D masses who like the Trixter aren't smart enough to see its deficiencies, than you have some mighty explaining to do as to why the Trixter is arguably the most popular PrC in the DMG and in the combined 3.0/3.5 splatbook/sourcebook world. Players aren't stupid. They don't go back to PrC's that suck or get themselves killed. The WotC C.O. & Class-Based Accessories Boards have way much more traffic than the Nifty or Gaming Den boards. Go run searches on "Arcane Trickster" and any other PrC ... compare the totals. Arcane Trickster wins. People love the class. People play the class. People succeed, prosper, grow, and excel in the class. If mass delusionoid stupidity is the crux of your explanation for this, Frank ... well, I rest my case.

Regards,
Lee

Um...Lee. If you are going to continue these quote wars, could I possibly persuade you to use the quote tags correctly?

Pretty please.

-Jack

Mod Edit: Edited out inflammatory comments, but he does have a point about the quote tags, so I left that part.

Mod Edit: Post edited as the post it was referencing has been edited to no longer include the reference. Something like that. You know what I mean.